Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-04-25, 16:25

Infinity3 wrote:I’m currently learning Finnish. Are my sentences correct?

Saunassa menen ja luen kirjaa sinun kanssa. Rakastan kirjaa. Kirja on jännittävä!

I would say:
Menen saunaan ja luen kirjaa sinun kanssasi. Rakastan kirjaa. Kirja (/se) on jännittävä!

If you want to say that you read the book in a sauna, then it'd be luen kirjaa kanssasi saunassa. The word order can be changed if you want (luen kanssasi kirjaa saunassa / luen saunassa kirjaa kanssasi / luen kanssasi kirjaa saunassa and so on).

I wouldn't start with "saunassa" unless you have a reason to emphasise that it's in a sauna where you read the book. For example, if someone had asked you to read the book now, you could answer that we'll read it but only when we're in a sauna. You could also start with "saunassa" if you were writing a story and wanted to tell your readers that the place has changed, that we're now in a sauna.

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby sa wulfs » 2019-06-14, 19:19

I'm translating an excerpt from Veijo Meri's Everstin autonkuljettaja for a course and I'm completely stuck in a few sentences. Could you guys help?

(Context: Private (I assume) Peltola is sitting on a car, talking to a sentry as he's about to leave the barracks or whatever it is. Peltola has told the sentry that he's going to Sysmä. I put the first lines within code tags to save some space, since they're not the ones giving me trouble but they might provide helpful context)

Code: Select all

—Meinasko se ajaa sun päälles? Huttunen kysyi.
—Kuka?
—Äsken, Huttunen sanoi.
—En mä huomannut.
—Kyllä mä olisin todistanut.
—Mitä.
—Että se ajoi sinut nurin.
—Ei tarvitse. Mä pyysin siltä jo anteeksi.
—Saatanan jano. Mulla on taas kaks päivää hampaat kipeet.
—Sen janon takiako?
—Ei kun tämän raudan takia, joka mulla on päässä. Mihin sä menet?
—Sysmään.
—Vie terveisiä.
—Kenelle?
—Tuula Suomaalle.
—Keneltä?
—Minulta.
—Missä se siellä on?
—Kirkonkylän osuuskaupassa.
—Kaupat on kiinni, ennen kuin mä pääsen sinne.
—Ei se olekaan siellä, Huttunen muisti.
—Kuka?
—Tuula Suomaa.
—Kuka se on?
—Koskisen sisarpuoli. Mä sotken aina Sysmän ja Jämsän. Se on Jämsässä. Se on siellä naimisissa yhden Suomaan kanssa.
—Aha.

—Mitä sä siellä Sysmässä teet?
—Haen Siltasen kaupunkiin.
—Mene nyt jo, älä siinä koko päivää kuppaa.
—Millä mä tästä menen, kun ne ei tee väliä.
—Kiilaa, helvetti. Kun ne näkee, että on armeijan auto, ne pelkää sitä.

So my question would be, wut?
"What are you going to do in Sysmä?"
"I'm going to fetch Siltanen to take him to the city."
"Leave already, don't dawdle all day (there?/on that?)." ??
"(On what/By what means) (I) (from here) (go), (when/if), (they), (don't make a difference)" ???????
"(Go on?), dammit. When they see that it's an army car, they're going to be afraid." ?

I have no idea what the referent of ne is, or what the hell the second to last line in particular is talking about. Any tips?

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-06-14, 21:24

sa wulfs wrote:—Mene nyt jo, älä siinä koko päivää kuppaa.
—Millä mä tästä menen, kun ne ei tee väliä.
—Kiilaa, helvetti. Kun ne näkee, että on armeijan auto, ne pelkää sitä.

So my question would be, wut?

- Siinä refers to "where you are". I probably wouldn't translate it at all because it doesn't really tell anything about directions or locations - it's more like a fixed phrase, where the structure is always älä + siinä + verb. You can find more examples on Google: " . . .älä siinä yhtään murise" / "Älä siinä ihmettele vaan tule jo!" / "Älä siinä enää hyssytä" / "Älä siinä toljota, Irénke!"

- I'd translate this sentence as "how could I leave/go when they won't give me way". Väli means 'the space between two things' aka the space between cars in this case. Ne is the other drivers and their cars. He's complaining that it's impossible for him to leave because the other drivers ignore him.

- Kiilata = to wedge (from kiila - a wedge). Now imagine you're doing that but with a car. He's encouraging him to forcefully push himself between the other cars because when they see it's not a normal car but an army car, they'll let him do that because they respect/fear the army.

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby sa wulfs » 2019-06-16, 0:26

Ooooh, that makes sense. This kind of text is a bit above my level, so you just saved my bum. Kiitti!
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-06-16, 7:18

Eipä kestä! :) Good luck with your studies!

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby sa wulfs » 2019-06-16, 13:08

Thanks!

I have another question. Earlier in the dialogue I included in the code tags in my first post, when the sentry says "Kyllä mä olisin todistanut", does he mean that he would have made sure he was actually run over if he were in Peltola's shoes, or that he, as a witness, would have corroborated Peltola's story if the latter had decided to confront the major who ran him over?
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-06-16, 13:33

sa wulfs wrote:I have another question. Earlier in the dialogue I included in the code tags in my first post, when the sentry says "Kyllä mä olisin todistanut", does he mean that he would have made sure he was actually run over if he were in Peltola's shoes, or that he, as a witness, would have corroborated Peltola's story if the latter had decided to confront the major who ran him over?

varma = sure
varmistaa = to make sure

tosi = true
todistaa = to prove, to witness, to testify; you can think of it as "to show/say something is true"

So the answer is the latter: he would've been ready to be a witness for Peltola if Peltola had wanted to go to talk to the major. Also notice that (at least from what I can see from the quote) the major did not run him over - it was close, but it didn't happen. I guess that's also why Peltola has said sorry (he felt he was in the major's way, so the near accident was his fault) but I don't understand why he claims he "didn't notice anything" at first. :hmm: Maybe he didn't want to make it sound like a big deal.

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby sa wulfs » 2019-06-16, 14:02

I see, thank you! I was under the impression that todistaa could also mean "verify", but I think I was getting it mixed with tarkistaa for some unfathomable reason.

From what I could glean from the small fragment I read, Peltola was hit by the car's running board, or his foot was caught in the running board while running alongside the car and he fell, but I found that part particularly confusing so I'm not sure I got it right :P. Anyway, yeah, I think he didn't want to make a fuss.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby bozzbetty » 2019-06-21, 0:38

Hei kaikille! 🙋‍♀️

I was hoping someone could help with the verse of a poem I'm finding myself stuck with. It's from Saima Harmaja's Kevätilta, here it is:

En koskaan ma pettynyt, koskaan en uupunut kesken, en koskaan ma epäillyt valtaa kirkkauden.

In particular, I'm not sure how to translate the kesken. Can anybody suggest any good translation for this verse?

Kiitoksia jo etukäteen! 😊

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-06-22, 11:08

bozzbetty wrote:En koskaan ma pettynyt, koskaan en uupunut kesken, en koskaan ma epäillyt valtaa kirkkauden.

In particular, I'm not sure how to translate the kesken. Can anybody suggest any good translation for this verse?

Kesken means 'not finished'; you could say that something is halfway done. It comes from the word keski, 'a middle of something', 'mid-'. Cf. for example keskellä, 'in the middle', 'between'.

There can be many things that are kesken, like a task you're doing at work, or a computer update, or if you wake up in the middle of the night, you can say you woke up kesken your sleep.

In this case, however, the reference is more general: no matter what they did in their life, they never lost their strength. I think you could translate the quote as "never was I disappointed, never did I lose my strength, never did I doubt the power of brightness".

Hope this helps! :) If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby bozzbetty » 2019-06-22, 22:04

Naava wrote:
bozzbetty wrote:En koskaan ma pettynyt, koskaan en uupunut kesken, en koskaan ma epäillyt valtaa kirkkauden.

In particular, I'm not sure how to translate the kesken. Can anybody suggest any good translation for this verse?

Kesken means 'not finished'; you could say that something is halfway done. It comes from the word keski, 'a middle of something', 'mid-'. Cf. for example keskellä, 'in the middle', 'between'.

There can be many things that are kesken, like a task you're doing at work, or a computer update, or if you wake up in the middle of the night, you can say you woke up kesken your sleep.

In this case, however, the reference is more general: no matter what they did in their life, they never lost their strength. I think you could translate the quote as "never was I disappointed, never did I lose my strength, never did I doubt the power of brightness".

Hope this helps! :) If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!


Thank you so much! 🙏

I'm used to find kesken combined with a noun, so I was a bit taken aback here and not sure if there was some other idiomatic meaning I was missing. Your explanation cleared this up, though, and it was very helpful!

😊

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby md0 » 2019-06-25, 8:19

"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-07-03, 8:58

md0 wrote:Should I trust this video? :)

It was surprisingly good! Nothing blatantly incorrect there. However, some things were left out or mentioned very briefly, but I don't really blame the video for that - it would've been impossible to describe an entire phonology in depth in less than 10 minutes. The only claim that really made me say what were when he brushed off the diphthongs because "these are spontaneous observations rather than rules". I don't know what he means by this.

One thing I'm not sure what to think about is the fact that he didn't mention the consonant gradation. On one hand, I can see why he didn't want to go there - it can sound complicated and unnecessarily confusing for his viewers who probably aren't even learning Finnish yet. On the other hand, it's near impossible to explain /ŋ/ or /d/ without consonant gradation, and as a perfectionist, this is not okay. :lol: If you know anything about phonologies in general, it should strike you as odd that Finnish has a phoneme that can only be long but never short, or that we have one voiced but three voiceless stops. I suppose he wanted to keep the video short and simple, but I would've wished he'd given a little bit more time to /d/, especially since it has a cool* backstory. It's not like he wouldn't have had time for that because he talked about F, G, B, W, and Š being used in loan words, mentioned Ž as "relatively uncommon", said double V, H, and J are possible but rare, demonstrated the different allophones of /h/, and even talked about the syntactic gemination that is almost always left out in videos like these**. I mean, he clearly had time to discuss all of these, so why left out /d/? I don't think it's because he didn't know, because he had marked <v> as [ʋ] and used <x>, /x/, and [x] correctly, so he must know at least the basics of linguistics and so he couldn't have missed it.

* my opinion, but it is cool!
** I might be wrong, but I have a feeling I haven't seen it discussed too often.

All in all, it's a nice video. He has attempted to summarise an entire phonology, which has its consequences, but he has done a good job. He has managed to include lots of interesting and important details, like the syntactic gemination that I was really surprised to see. This is more than enough to familiarise yourself with Finnish phonology. :waytogo:

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby md0 » 2019-07-03, 9:13

Good to know, thanks :waytogo:

If you know anything about phonologies in general, it should strike you as odd that Finnish has a phoneme that can only be long but never short

Ah, that's ok :) My variety of Greek has [z:] and [ʒ:] but no [z] and [ʒ].

My main problem so far is telling /æ/ and /ɑ/ apart. Cardinal /æ/ and /ɑ/ on Wikipedia sound distinct enough, but not in the Colloquial Finnish mp3's I use.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-07-03, 9:51

md0 wrote:Ah, that's ok My variety of Greek has [z:] and [ʒ:] but no [z] and [ʒ].

What variety do you speak? Do you know why you don't have [z] or [ʒ]?

What I've seen, there are some tendencies such as if there's /b/, there's likely /p/; or if there's /m̥/, there's likely /m/. So when you see something that doesn't look balanced, there might be a reason why. :) In the case of /ŋ/, there is a reason so of course I would've loved to see it explained. I admit that I would love to have everything explained, though!

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby md0 » 2019-07-03, 10:18

Naava wrote:
md0 wrote:Ah, that's ok My variety of Greek has [z:] and [ʒ:] but no [z] and [ʒ].

What variety do you speak? Do you know why you don't have [z] or [ʒ]?


So, that's a feature shared by all varieties we call Cypriot Greek. [ʒ:] is straightforward enough, it's an underlying /zj/ so it keeps its syllabic slots (same as [ʎː] now that I think about it, it's from /lj/ and it's always long). But I'm not sure about [z:]. If I had to explain it, I would probably put it down to analogy to [ʒ:].
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby bozzbetty » 2019-07-11, 22:47

Moro, me again with some translation questions for an assignment!

Just to make my life easier as usual, I chose to read Marjo Niemi's Kaikkien menetysten äiti without knowing it was actually entirely written in puhekieli 😅 Good exercise to get familiar with spoken language indeed, except that a few paragraphs are now proving difficult to crack. Here they are:

1.Jos mä voisinki sanoo miten hankala yhtäkkiä tällasessa tilanteessa on tehä mastoalusta, kuinka paljon sitä joutuu kelaa ja kuinka vähän mastoalusta maailmaan syntyy.
[If I could only put into words how difficult it suddenly is making a mast ship in this kind of state, how much thinking that requires and ...]

2.Sitä on vaikee kuvata mitä se niinku sisäsesti tarkottaa ja minkälaista tunneletkaa naaman näkeminen johtaa sellasen Irlannin maalaismaiseman läpi.
[It is difficult to describe what my inner self sorts of make of it and what kind of ...]

3.Tietsä sen tyypin, joka kertoo jonku laspuusmuiston jostain pellon laidalta, tai jonku sellasen käpylehmäelämyksen pitkällisen jakamistapahtuman?
[Do you know that person, who tells some childhood memory about something at the edge of a field, or ...]

4.Niin on ne kuiteskin sellanen hiukan helpottava haalee akvarelli siitä millasta maailmassa on, siellä mihin vois joskus mahdollisesti palata.
[So after all they are sort of a somewhat soothing faded watercolour about what the world is like, a place where I could possibly go back to some time]

5.Rautakoura on, rautakoura ei jätä, se on aina.
[Ironclaw...]

6.Mä, joka kävelen ees surematta oman äitin rumiin luota, jätän sen yksin tonne mihin lie tilaan! Mä, joka aina vaan tiputtelen ihmisii irti vaikka ne tippuis mihin!
[It’s me who is walking away from my own mum’s body without even a tear, leaving her there in I don’t know what place! It’s me who is always just knocking people away, ...]

7.Kaikenlaista sitä ympärillä sattu, mut lopulta joku keskeismöhkäle itseä oli ihan yhtä tiukka kuivunu köntti ku aina, mikään ei siihen osunu.
[All sorts of things happen in and around, but in the end ...]

In square brackets are my very tentative translations and the ... mean I don't have a clue about those sentences at all. Also what exactly is mastoalus? Could it really be 'mast ship'? Or is it just a fancy way to say 'ship'?🤔

Feel free to completely rewrite my translations, if you think they're wrong and I welcome any suggestion/contribution to complete the missing parts!

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-07-19, 9:52

bozzbetty wrote:Moro, me again with some translation questions for an assignment!

Moi vaan. :) Hopefully I'm not too late with my answers!

Your quotes proved out to be very difficult indeed, partly because I'm not sure what the corresponding phrases would be in English, and partly because I myself don't always know what they're trying to say. :lol: Here's my best attempts anyway:

1. If only I coud put into words how difficult it is to suddenly make a mast ship* in a situation like this, how much thinking it requires and how few mast ships are made in total [in this world].

* this is not 100% clear where the 'suddenly' refers to: is it suddenly difficult or is it difficult to make something without a prior warning

2. It is difficult to describe what it means for me and what kind of a train of emotions seeing a face pulls you through an Irish landscape like this/that

( This was hard to translate! I'm not sure who's face the speaker has seen or if they're in Ireland or why the Irish landscape was mentioned. I also think the translation is clumsy and hard to understand but to my defence, so was the original Finnish sentence... :whistle: )

3. Do you know that [kind of a] person who tells you a childhood memory where they were at the edge of a field, or a boringly long sharing event of their cone cow experience or something?

( Not sure if they're popular elsewhere, but Finnish kids used to make "cows" with cones and matches or sticks and then played with them. Here's a picture. And again, I feel I can't quite translate the original sentence without changing anything. Imo a better translation could be "... or a person who makes you to listen to a detailed description of their childhood cone cow experience" or something like that.)

4. So/yes, after all they are sort of a somewhat soothing faded watercolour about what the world is like, a place where you/I could go back to some time.

( It's not clear if the speaker is saying they would go back to or if it's just a general "one could go back to" )

5. Iron claw is, iron claw won't leave you, it is always.

( ??? )

6. Me, who is walking away from my own mum's body without a tear, leaving her there who knows in what kind of state! Me, who's always dropping people no matter where they drop!

( When speaking of someone's "tila", it usually means the medical condition / how well the person is. )

7. All sorts of things happened in and around, but in the end some central part of me was just as hard, dried out lump as always, nothing could hit it.

( Note that sattuu = happens, sattu = happened )

Also what exactly is mastoalus? Could it really be 'mast ship'? Or is it just a fancy way to say 'ship'?🤔

I have no idea. I tried to google it but I found almost no hits at all. If you translate it literally, it is 'mast ship'. I don't think I've ever heard this word before. Usually we talk about purjelaiva or purjealus, 'sailing ship'. I found one tripadvisor review describing a ship they had been on as mastoalus here and the picture looks like a sailing ship to me, so... I guess that's what it is.

KIITOKSIA KAIKILLE AVUSTAJILLE! 😊

Avustaja = an assistant in a job or in an event. I'd say 'auttajille', (those who help) or 'kiitos kaikille avusta' (thanks for your help)

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby bozzbetty » 2019-07-26, 15:23

Naava wrote:Moi vaan. :) Hopefully I'm not too late with my answers!


Kiitos arvokkaasta mielipiteestäsi! 🙏 And your answer was not late at all...mine is perhaps now! 🙄

I think the text of the novel was written in such a way as to be deliberately confusing/ambiguous. It uses stream of consciousness as a narrative technique, so that was to be expected. However, knowing that doesn't make my task as a translator any easier.

Since my translation is going to be assessed, though, I have also contacted the author and she offered to answer some of my questions. If you are interested, I can post here any further clarification. 😉

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2019-07-27, 7:24

bozzbetty wrote:Kiitos arvokkaasta mielipiteestäsi! 🙏

Kiva jos minusta oli apua! :)

I think the text of the novel was written in such a way as to be deliberately confusing/ambiguous. It uses stream of consciousness as a narrative technique, so that was to be expected.

Ah, I see. That definitely explains why it was so difficult to translate.

Did you choose the book yourself or was it given to you?

Since my translation is going to be assessed, though, I have also contacted the author and she offered to answer some of my questions. If you are interested, I can post here any further clarification. 😉

Please do, that'd be great! :y:


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