TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

[voron]

Today I did* this Langmedia video "Syria’s Slower Paced Life Style" http://langmedia.fivecolleges.edu/cultu ... Daily-Life (stole it from Saim's thread )

*Just to remind you guys what I mean by 'doing' a song/video: I copy its transcript into LWT (Learning with Texts), look up any word I don't know, and then convert it into a set of cloze deletion Anki cards. There is an option in LWT that does the conversion and the whole process (export&import) takes 30 seconds at most.

A note about something I keep forgetting:
علم - to know
علّم - to teach, form 2
تعلّم - to learn, form 5 (reflexive of form 2)

[vijayjohn]

I got half the vocabulary that I posted on my personal thread from the video titled "Loyalty to One's Homeland," which is the third video on that same page, just because I'm pretty sure that's the first LangMedia video I ever watched at all.

[voron]

I've decided to change my routine again (surprise surprise). I'll only do Arabic. Let's set a goal of 3 months (so until May 1). The reason is, I want to see a faster progress.

Starting using Anki has shown me that I have problems with memorizing Arabic vocabulary, and that's why my Arabic is still shit (simply because I know too few words). Let's calculate... if I do 20 words per day 5 times a week, it'll be 1200 new words in 3 months. Not too impressive, but on top of words I already know it should take me to B1-ish (which I am not at now).

I've found these numbers showing how many words approximately you need for each level.
Language Level - Number of Base Words Needed
A1 500
A2 1000
B1 2000
B2 4000
C1 8000
C2 16000

Looks legit. Of course I should combine it with a lot of listening. (As for reading and writing -- I'm learning a dialect so I don't care about those 2).

[vijayjohn]

If you're going to Turkey in less than a month, then I guess you'll still have opportunities to practice Turkish and Kurdish there anyway, right? Do you get opportunities to practice Arabic there, too?

[voron]

If you're going to Turkey in less than a month, then I guess you'll still have opportunities to practice Turkish and Kurdish there anyway, right?

Yes, that's why I don't regret dropping actively studying Turkish or Kurdish too much.

Do you get opportunities to practice Arabic there, too?

Well, there are lots of Syrians in Istanbul, but I'm too shy to start conversations especially when my Arabic is still mediocre. I also have a good Syrian friend but we speak English all the time.

[vijayjohn]

Makes sense! I actually kind of have the same problem with Thai that you do with Arabic...I do talk to the lady who cuts my hair in Thai but not much. I usually don't even have to tell her how I want my hair to be cut because she already knows.

[voron]

I've finished watching بدون قيد. I'll watch it again without the subtitles.

In the episode about the girl named ريم, she and her family speak in a dialect which I think is characteristic to rural areas of Nothern Syria. They pronounce ق as /g/, and (word-final?) ك as /t͡ʃ/, so for example خالك "your uncle" sounds like /xa:lit͡ʃ/. They are the same features which are present in Omar Souleyman's songs. For example here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlu1XyPexn8&t=2m35s

the line is القلب حبّك (the heart loved you) and he pronounces it as al-galob 7abbich.

Next, I want to take all the conversational expressions from Syrian Colloquial and input them into Anki. (Greetings, wishes, saying goodbye etc -- all those things that Syrians use 1000 times a day. They are perfect ice-breakers and conversation starters but every time I need to use them my mind goes blank). And then I'll continue doing songs, langmedia and other resources like arabicstudent and lingualism.

[voron]

One more random note. I just recently realized that the active participles of all verbal forms but form I start with a م and don't contain the long vowel (and as such they are identical to the passive participles in writing).
form 2
active - مُفَعِّل
passive - مُفَعَّل
etc

I think I had "learnt" it at some point but it started making sense only now that I started to read and listen to Arabic more.

An example. Someone recently told me that he's a beginner in Russian, and the word for beginner he used was مُبتَدي. Now I can correctly recognize it as the active participle from form 8 verb اْبتَدَى (to start - transitive), whose form 1 is بِدِي (to start - intransitive).

Another example, in this Omar Souleyman's presentation he says he is a singer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfCbxv9mk4E

The word for singer is مُغَنّي, and it's the active participle of غَنَّى (to sing).

And now it's clear why many professions start with a م.

[vijayjohn]

I haven't even touched بدون قيد since I last mentioned it. See, told you I was slow!

[voron]

A random note about Arabic:

عَاد، يْعِيْد - to repeat
عِيْد كَلَامَك - Repeat what you said.

عَاد، يْعُوْد - to return, go back
عَادَت حَلِّمِة لَعَادِتهَا القَدِيْمِة - Halima has returned to her old habits.

And to return (transitive), to reply, to get back comes from a different root:
رَدّ، يْرِدّ
بَسَلِّم عَلَيْه، مَا بيْرُدِّ - I greet him and he doesn't reply

[voron]

It's been just 6 days of the Arabic-only mode and I am already missing my Kurdish.
صارلي 6 ايام عم اتعلم بس العربي، و اشتاقت للكردي كتير.
Ev 6 roj e ez bi tenê fêrî erebî dibim, û min beriya kurdî pir kiriye.

I should be strong.
لازم كون قوي.
Devo essere forte. Where the heck did Italian come from???

[vijayjohn]

You're missing your Italian, too.

[voron]

You're missing your Italian, too.

If only latently.

It's been just 6 days of the Arabic-only mode and I am already missing my Kurdish.

And I give up, learning just one language is boring as hell. I'm returning to my "one day-one language" schedule, it was so much more fun. I don't care if I don't progress fast enough, there is no hurry.

So...

Monday is Kurdish
Tuesday is Arabic
Wednesday is Turkish
Thursday is Classical Arabic
Friday is Kurdish
Saturday is Arabic
Sunday is Turkish

Hmm, how about I put this schedule in my signature? Or even better, create a website which displays the current day's language, and add the link to it in my signature.

[voron]

And starting from now, I'm doing Zaza. I don't know how much I'll progress, but learning some basic stuff will be fun.

I was always wondering what this flag appearing on Unilang for the Zaza language is, and I've found this info:

Around 1917, Zaza rebels used plain red flags and these flags were rolled up around their heads during the fight against Turks, who called them Kizilbach (Red Heads). In 1921 Ismail Aga directed the revolt in the region of Koçgiri, which was violently repressed (20,000 were killed). During this revolt, the red flag with the white "Z" was created, the "Z" being a traditional embroidery design in the Zaza clothes. The flag was used during the followings revolts: 1934, Koç Asıretı in Dersim; 1937-38, Seyit Rıza also in Dersim; 1978, Halil Öztoprak in Marach; 1979 in Sivas; 1980 in Tchorum.

The Zaza flag is banned in Turkey and is used mainly in the Zaza emigration in Germany and other countries.

Lesson 1. A dialog between a boy named Hesen and a girl named Zelal. (From the Zaza book used in Turkish schools, http://www.eba.gov.tr/ekitap?icerik-id=5428).

Hesen: Merheba. Zelal: Merheba. Hesen: Nameyê mı Hesen o. Nameyê tu çıta yo? Zelal: Nameyê mı Zelal a. Tı senin i Hesen? Hesen: Ez hol o. Teşekur keno. Tı senin a Zelal? Zelal: Ez zi hol a. Teşekur kena. Tı çara yi Hesen? Hesen: Ez Çolig ra yo. Tı kamca ra ya Zelal? Zelal: Ez zi Diyarbekır ra ya. Hesen: Ez pê şınasnayişê tu keyfweş biyo. Zelal: Ez zi biya şa. Hesen: Xatırê tu bo. Zelal: Oğır bo.

Hello. Hello. My name is Hesen. What is your name? My name is Zelal. How are you Hesen? I am fine. Thank you. How are you Zelal? I am also fine. Thank you. Where are you from Hesen? I am from Çolig. Where are you from Zelal? I am from Diyarbekır. I am happy to meet you. I am happy too. Good bye. Bye.

A striking grammar feature that we can see in this dialog: Zaza copular distinguishes gender!
I am fine.
Masculine: Ez hol o.
Feminine: Ez hol a.

You are fine.
Masculine: Tı hol i.
Feminine: Tı hol a.

I looked it up in the grammar book (T.L. Tood, A Grammar of Dimili, http://www.zazaki.de/english/T.L.Todd-A ... fDimli.pdf), and yes it confirms this, and moreover, Zaza verb distinguishes gender in all moods and tenses! That's one fun language.

It's a bit like they always speak with participles (the resemblance also comes from using "a" for the feminine verbs, just like in Slavic and Romance adjectives and participles).

[voron]

A song in Zaza which I like a lot (with Turkish subtitles).
Mikail Aslan - Hal Yamano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b23j2s2JGoA

Ax ti şiya ware ye Lemine çiqa serdo Ax ti şiya ware ye Lemine çiqa serdo Çene to ez caverdu Ez biyo wayire derdo Daye hal yamano Bawo hal se beno Munzir Baba miradiyo Serê zerya ma zondano Ax ti ware wisari ye Ma gureto derde sari ye Ax ti ware wisari ye Ma gureto derde sari ye Çene ti veyva ma biya Şiya biya veyva sari

Ah, you went to the highland And how cold it is Ah, you went to the highland And how cold it is Girl, you left me I became an owner of woe Mother, the situation is bad, Father, what will become of the situation? Munzir Baba got mad My heart hurts Ah you, spring highland A headache overtook me Ah you, spring highland A headache overtook me Girl, be our bride, You went, became people's bride

Vocabulary
tı şiya - you went (f.)
tı biya - you became (f.)
ez biyo - I became (m.)
serd - cold
sere - head
veyva - bride
kêna, çena - girl
zerrî - heart
ware (highland) -- a camp in the mountains where Kurdish peoples migrate for the summer to breed cattle.

"To ez caverdu" (you left me) suggests that there's ergativity in the past tense. Ok, I expected this.

The song is telling us that the girl which the hero loved married another guy and went away with him.
But who is this Munzir Baba I wonder? Googling suggests it's a hero of Zaza folklore (unknown to Turks, and probably Kurmanji Kurds too).

I was browsing through Mikail Aslan's songs and I found one with this name: Zere Mi. I now know that it means "My heart". (It's zerrî/zerri in the standard spelling, but I don't expect the spelling to be consistent as I know that a few changes were made during the last years -- the Kurdish institute where I attended the Kurmanji course was responsible for that -- and I don't expect many people to know the standard anyway, they just write phonetically.)

UPD: Oh and I just stumbled across another song whose name I can now understand: Erdoğan Emir - To Şiya (You are gone). And it's a beautiful song!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDuO4sbF0IU

[voron]

Lesson 1. A dialog between a boy named Hesen and a girl named Zelal. (From the Zaza book used in Turkish schools, http://www.eba.gov.tr/ekitap?icerik-id=5428).

Also, did I mention that this book has audio files for all of its texts and dialogs? It's freely downloadable from the above website (and it's completely legal -- it's Turkey's Ministry of Education website).

[voron]

I've created a separate topic for Zazaki.
viewtopic.php?p=1098698

It resembles Karavinka's topic on Turkish (credit goes to Karavinka). I am trying to decipher the grammar and extract vocabulary using Zazaki songs. Unlike Karavinka, I don't have anything against looking things up in grammar books, but my main source -- Todd's Grammar of Dimili -- describes a specific dialect (Siverek province) which shows some divergencies with the texts I use.

I've done this song:
Erdoğan Emir - Ez Merdo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKUr24FGS6k

The name of the song "Ez merdo" means "I died" (m.). (It may have a bad sound for a Romance speaker ).
Merd is cognate with Latin "mori" and Russian "умереть".

The song references a cultural phenomenon specific to Zazas, or more precisely, Alevism:
Pir - a socio-religious leader in Alevi community
Talib Pir ho sas kerd -- when a follower confuses his Pir -- this is seen as things going out of order and destruction of traditional social structure

How much similarity between Kurmanji and Zazaki have I seen so far?
Vocabulary -- maybe 30% or so. Definitely not enough for understanding.
Grammar, on the other hand, is quite close. Same noun cases, same verb tenses, same agent-patient alignment. I've noticed a couple of features non-existing in Kurmanji (one of them is distinguishing gender in verbs); maybe there will be more as I go on.

[הענט]

Interesting. I wonder how much of spoken Sorani can you understand?

[voron]

Interesting. I wonder how much of spoken Sorani can you understand?

I've never heard Sorani except in a couple of songs -- because it's not spoken in Turkey and I don't have an interest in it -- so I cannot really tell.
(My understanding of Kurmanji is far from perfect but I can get the gist of conversations, and take a part in them).

My native Kurmanji friends who went to Iraq say that at first they cannot understand it well (one person said he couldn't undestand it at all), and they can only have basic conversations when the other person speaks slowly, but that they get used to it very quickly.

Here is a video about university students in Turkey who graduated in Zazaki language and literature, with English subtitles.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=KLHj9UT1GBY

[voron]

A very nice show in Zazaki, interviewing Zazas from different areas.

Tanya Adirî
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqGYyB ... uA1jFAnR0g

The show's name means "Warmth of Fire". Fire is a special symbol for Zazas as their religion (Alevism) has some elements of Zoroastrianism.

But who is this Munzir Baba I wonder

I think the song just refers to the mountain chain named Munzir or Munzur.
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munzur_Da%C4%9Flar%C4%B1 (No English article in wiki).

So, the line "Munzir Baba miradiyo" (Father Munzir got mad) probably means something like "black clouds gathered above the mountains" (where the singer's beloved went with her new husband).

Munzur seems to have a lot of symbolism for Zazas. In the video that I shared before about the Zaza language university graduates, the university's name is Munzur (https://www.munzur.edu.tr/), and it doesn't seem to be a city or a province name.

the mountains of Dersim were a shelter for Zoroastrian Armenians who resisted against the process of Christianisation in ancient times and there were cult places of the Zoroastrian divinities in the borderland of ancient 'Dersim'

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCzg%C3%BCn_Baba

EDIT: Oh and Munzur is also the name of a beautiful valley and a national park in the province of Tunceli (Zaza: Dersim).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munzur_Va ... ional_Park

Google for "Munzur Vadisi" images, the landscapes are breathtaking.