Pronunciation of the letter ø?

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Amaethon
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Pronunciation of the letter ø?

Postby Amaethon » 2006-03-17, 20:37

Hey,

Okay, so Im a little confused about Norwegian pronunciation entirely, but ø is definitely the letter I have the most trouble with. I have heard that it is pronounced u sometimes, and others that it is pronounced ir. Help? XD

If you're feeling nice, wanna tell me how to pronounce all the letters? Haha...

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Postby leonarda » 2006-03-18, 10:01

her er en side fra universitetet i Trondheim: http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/no/ipach ... owels.html

Klikk på lydene, så får du høre dem

Lykke til

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 13:42

I suppose the closest thing for an English speaker would be U, but as in trust, or as in blood if it's a long-syllabled word.

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 13:45

Uh... actually, it'd only be pronounced like the "oo" in blood if you've got my half-a**ed Yorkshire accent.... In the States it's pronounced blaad... Not quite the same sound.... :)

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Postby Gormur » 2006-11-22, 18:32

The closest sound in English would be the oo in foot.
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 18:57

Yeah, I suppose you're right. An American would pronounce that one "futt"... That'll work! Clever Gormur... :)

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Postby Hunef » 2006-11-22, 20:45

Amaethon wrote:Okay, so Im a little confused about Norwegian pronunciation entirely, but ø is definitely the letter I have the most trouble with.
Usually it's the letter u which the most troublesome for beginners. But I guess ø may give you a field day as well.

Gormur wrote:The closest sound in English would be the oo in foot.
Are you serious? The Norwegian letter ø is somewhat like oo in foot!? Personally, I would say that ir in stir is the closest approximation.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-22, 21:26

I have to say I agree with Hunef here. It's hard to find a parallel in English, but if we turn to French, then perhaps the eu in bleu and dieu. The French adieu is incidentally spelled "adjø" in Norwegian.

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Re: Pronunciation of the letter ø?

Postby Kirk » 2006-11-22, 21:35

Amaethon wrote:Hey,

Okay, so Im a little confused about Norwegian pronunciation entirely, but ø is definitely the letter I have the most trouble with. I have heard that it is pronounced u sometimes, and others that it is pronounced ir. Help? XD

If you're feeling nice, wanna tell me how to pronounce all the letters? Haha...


To approximate IPA /ø/, say /e/ (the monophthongal, tense kind, as in Spanish "mesa," not GenAm diphthongal "mace" /eɪ/) but just round your lips at the same time.

There is no English direct equivalent so I'd say don't waste your time trying to find the "closest" English equivalent because none of them are that satisfactory :) The vowels in "foot" or "stir" are really not very close at all.
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 21:40

Adding to that, I must say that English speakers everywhere have so many different dialects themselves, that it's nearly impossible to find a phonic that would apply to them all... + it's just so difficult to explain how something sounds without the other person actually hearing it *sigh*... Dratted Tower of Babel.... :noclue:

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Postby Kirk » 2006-11-22, 21:42

RaseriSykdomIldebrannen wrote:Adding to that, I must say that English speakers everywhere have so many different dialects themselves, that it's nearly impossible to find a phonic that would apply to them all... + it's just so difficult to explain how something sounds without the other person actually hearing it *sigh*... Dratted Tower of Babel.... :noclue:


That's why there's IPA :D
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 22:00

:D Shame mine doesn't work... (He left him dead + with his head he went gallumphing back... :twisted: Gotta love the snicker-snack alliteration...)
By the way, would you say that the pronunciation of U is more like the French or German? Sounds like something in between to me... :?:

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Re: Pronunciation of the letter ø?

Postby Hunef » 2006-11-22, 22:34

Kirk wrote:The vowels in "foot" or "stir" are really not very close at all.

The vowel in 'stir' is much closer than the vowel in 'foot', for sure. But to be honest, I pronunce 'stir' with the vowel [œ] since it is the way someone from Sweden approximates it. So, in my "dialect" of English, 'ir' in 'stir' is very close to the correct pronunciation of Norwegian ø. :lol:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Re: Pronunciation of the letter ø?

Postby Kirk » 2006-11-23, 6:33

Hunef wrote:
Kirk wrote:The vowels in "foot" or "stir" are really not very close at all.

The vowel in 'stir' is much closer than the vowel in 'foot', for sure. But to be honest, I pronunce 'stir' with the vowel [œ] since it is the way someone from Sweden approximates it. So, in my "dialect" of English, 'ir' in 'stir' is very close to the correct pronunciation of Norwegian ø. :lol:


Haha, fair enough. And I'm sure some random English dialect somewhere does have [ø] or [œ] but I certainly wouldn't use that as a default "based-on-English" pronunciation guide. Most dialects of English unrounded their rounded front vowels pretty early on and most haven't reacquired the sound in any environment. Tho sometimes I could've sworn I heard AuE speakers use something approaching [œː] for the "stir" vowel. Anyway, my own [ɜ˞] there is certainly not that great a substitution :D
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: Pronunciation of the letter ø?

Postby Gormur » 2006-11-23, 20:08

Hunef wrote:
Kirk wrote:The vowels in "foot" or "stir" are really not very close at all.

The vowel in 'stir' is much closer than the vowel in 'foot', for sure.


Not for me. :) Sometimes I un/knowingly pronounce foot like føt as in føtter. Natively, it comes out something like fut. I'd better abandon IE, as I still can't read IPA. :roll:

On a different note, I hear a difference in ø of East Norwegian and West Norwegian - the ø of the former sounding more rounded (maybe like a neighboring Swedish ö?). I haven't had enough exposure to North Norwegian nor Middle Norwegian dialects to get an idea of their ø's.

Also, I notice how some older people pronounce ø as e and å as a (not consistenly, but in some instances). I'm not sure whether this is sociolectal, dialectal, or something else. Any thoughts?
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-23, 20:47

Wow, really? We have the words "sne" and "fjel" as alternatives to "snø" and "fjøl"/"fjæl", and old people may have a greater tendency to use those if their language is influenced by Danish. Similarly, we have "hand" as an alternative to "hånd". I've never heard of a systematic correspondency though.

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Postby Gormur » 2006-11-24, 1:52

Rounin wrote:Wow, really? We have the words "sne" and "fjel" as alternatives to "snø" and "fjøl"/"fjæl", and old people may have a greater tendency to use those if their language is influenced by Danish. Similarly, we have "hand" as an alternative to "hånd". I've never heard of a systematic correspondency though.


Yes, for me it is sne, fjell, and hand in pronunciation :) - I mean in names such as Tromsø rendered as Tromse and Vågå as Våga.
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-24, 9:10

I haven't heard Tromse before, but the Våga/Vågå thing could be a case of certain dialects using a for inflecting a noun and others using å.

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Postby Ioannes » 2006-11-24, 14:17

Rounin wrote:I haven't heard Tromse before, but the Våga/Vågå thing could be a case of certain dialects using a for inflecting a noun and others using å.


in ictu oculi, I thought I said /'trumse/, however, I think I say /'trømsø/' :P - Hey, btw, what do you think about /bogsta'væien/?

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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-24, 16:11

You mean with a g instead of a k?


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