Old English Discussion

[Ludwig Whitby]

"How hard is it exactly"? Uh? What do you mean, on the Ron Jeremy Scale of Hardness?

Rereading Lenguas's question after a porn reference.

How hard is it exactly? I've been looking at it, and it looks pretty hard.

Classic ''That's what she said.''

[sa wulfs]

Lolzers.

Anyway, Lenguas, why don't you try to find out by yourself for once and stop asking silly questions?

Frige mec frodum wordum! Ne læt þinne ferð onhælne,
degol þæt þu deopost cunne! Nelle ic þe min dyrne gesecgan,
gif þu me þinne hygecræft hylest ond þine heortan geþohtas.
Gleawe men sceolon gieddum wrixlan

Can you get the gist of this? If you can't, it's probably kinda hard.

(edit: this post is way too meta, maybe)

[Lenguas]

porn reference

Barbarian.

Can you get the gist of this? If you can't, it's probably kinda hard.

Unless it means:

Fridge me Frodo's words! Do not let your holy journey!
Degol, that thou cunning despot! Don't let me see thee searching.
Give me your craft and your hear that you thought.
Glaswegian men should eat something.

then it is quite hard. Can you read it?

(edit: this post is way too meta, maybe)

Meta? No entiendo. I don't understand.

[Milya0]

How hard is it exactly? I've been looking at it, and it looks pretty hard.

I think it's 3H.

Compared to other languages, such as German, Dutch, French, etc., for someone who already knows Modern English.

I think you can't objectively say that language is easy or hard. It can only be simple or complex, similar or dissimilar, related or different.

[sa wulfs]

Can you read it?

Yes.

Meta? No entiendo. I don't understand.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=meta

[Lenguas]

Let me google that looks really funny on a mobile. No, I still don't get what you were trying to say with "meta". It's not a commonly used word like that. Btw, why did you decide to learn Old English? Just for the heck of it? To me, it seems almost as close to German or Icelandic than English. I'm very impressed that you can read that without a dictionary.

[YngNghymru]

To me, it seems almost as close to German or Icelandic than English. I'm very impressed that you can read that without a dictionary.

It's closer to Icelandic or German generally, yes - it's a pretty prototypical early mediaeval germanic language, with lots of case morphology, and more Germanic vocabulary in general use. I don't know whether it would necessarily be easier to any native speaker of English than learning, say, German would - but I doubt it's much harder, either. It's particularly helpful that the extant lexicon of Old English is comparatively small and that you'll never have to learn to understand it in speech, speak it yourself or indeed, unless you feel the inclination, to write it down.

[Lenguas]

Oh yes, that's right. I never thought about that. The vocabulary would be much smaller. Although the easiest things in most languages is the technical vocabulary.

[YngNghymru]

Oh yes, that's right. I never thought about that. The vocabulary would be much smaller. Although the easiest things in most languages is the technical vocabulary.

Not really. Sure, there are some words shared - but even things like 'computer' which you would expect to be similar vary widely. Also, technical vocabulary is really a pretty small lexical group.

[Lenguas]

Oh yes, that's right. I never thought about that. The vocabulary would be much smaller. Although the easiest things in most languages is the technical vocabulary.

Not really. Sure, there are some words shared - but even things like 'computer' which you would expect to be similar vary widely. Also, technical vocabulary is really a pretty small lexical group.

haha, I rely on that technical vocabulary in Romance languages, continental Scandinavian languages, etc., because it means that I can read something more than childrens' books (which get kinda dull. And besides, Old English doesn't have any childrens' books)--and often it is actually easier to read than childrens' books at first. I don't like being in the situation of having to look up every word in a book. It's too frustrating. I prefer to be able to get many words out of context. And overusing a dictionary disrupts the flow of reading something, to the point of being ridiculous.

How many words are (recorded) in Old English? (Just a rough estimate)

[ILuvEire]

Frige mec frodum wordum! Ne læt þinne ferð onhælne,
degol þæt þu deopost cunne! Nelle ic þe min dyrne gesecgan,
gif þu me þinne hygecræft hylest ond þine heortan geþohtas.
Gleawe men sceolon gieddum wrixlan

I bolded the words I think I know. And I think I got the gist of it, honestly. That's a nice feeling

[Lenguas]

Based on the words you bolded:
? words! Not thy
that thou can! I the mine seek
give thou me thy ? and thy heart thought.
? ? shall

[sa wulfs]

Frige mec frodum wordum! Ne læt þinne ferð onhælne,
degol þæt þu deopost cunne! Nelle ic þe min dyrne gesecgan,
gif þu me þinne hygecræft hylest ond þine heortan geþohtas.
Gleawe men sceolon gieddum wrixlan

I bolded the words I think I know. And I think I got the gist of it, honestly. That's a nice feeling

Then maybe you got the joke. Honestly, it was brilliant, and it pains me that no one might get it.

mec = me
frod = wise
lætan = let, reveal
ferð = heart, inner thoughts
onhæl = hidden
degol = secret
deopost = gah, not sure I can translate it with a gloss. Lit. "deepest", innermost
nelle = ne wille = I don't want
dyrne = secret
hylest = you conceal
giedd = riddle
wrixlan = exchange

There.

[ILuvEire]

HA! I was right Quite punderful m'friend.

[TeneReef]

Some etymologies from the Oxford dictionary suggest that the pronunciation with the unrounded [ɑ] is more original than the one with the unrounded vowel.

ALL

Forms: sing.OE– all (late WS. OE–ME eall, eal), OE–16 al (north.ME alle). pl.OE–ME alle (WS. OE–ME ealle, north.ME–16 al), ME– all. For early inflected forms, see below, D.

Etymology: Common to all the Germanic stock, but not found beyond: compare Old Saxon all, al, Old Frisian al, ol, Old High German al (all-er), Old Norse all-r, Gothic all-s. Properly adj. but passing on one side into a n., on the other into an adv. As an adj. it usually precedes, but sometimes follows its n.
In northern and Scots a', l is lost as in alms, talk. A occurs rarely and doubtfully in Middle English northern or n. midl.; a' is the current spelling in modern literary Scots

BALL (dancing)

Forms: 16 bal, 16– ball, 18– baul ; Sc. pre-17 17– ball, 19– ba, 19– baw. (Show Less)
Etymology: < Middle French, French †bal dance (2nd half of the 12th cent. in Old French; now obsolete), social gathering for dancing (c1228 in Old French) < Old French balerbale v.1 Compare Old Occitan bal dance, sort of poetry, instrumental music (Occitan bal), Catalan ball (1290), Spanish baile (c1300; 1500 as baila), Portuguese baile (1452 as bailo), Italian ballo (a1312), all in senses ‘dancing, a dance, social gathering for dancing’

CALL

Forms: (OE ceallian), ME callen, ME–15 calle, (ME cale, kal, kel), ME kall, ME–16 cal, ME callyn, 15 caal, ( caul(e), ME– call. Also (Sc.) 16–18 caw, 17–18 ca, ca'.(Show Less)
Etymology: Old English shows a single instance of ceallian: but Middle English callen, kallen, was originally northern, and evidently < Old Norse kalla to call, cry, shout, to summon in a loud voice, to name, call by a name, also to assert, claim (Swedish kalla, Danish kalde). A common Germanic vb.: in Middle Dutch callen, Dutch kallen to talk, chatter, prattle, Middle Low German kallen, Old High German challôn, Middle High German kallin to talk much and loud, to chatter < Germanic *kallôjan, cognate with gol- in Slavonic gólos voice, sound, and perhaps with Aryan root gar- to chatter.

FALL

Forms: ME fael, ME south. væl, val, ME–16 fal, ME–16 falle, 15 faule, fawle, foll, 17–18 Sc. fa', faw, ME– fall.(Show Less)
Etymology: < fall v.: compare Old Frisian fal, fel (masculine), Old Saxon, Old High German fal, Old Norse fall neuter The synonymous Old English fięll, fyll ( < *falli-z), < same root, did not survive into Middle English, unless it be represented by the forms fæl, væl in Layamon.
An act or instance of falling.

SMALL

Forms: OE smæl, OE, ME smel, OE, ME–16 smal; ME–16 smale, ME Sc. smaill; ME smalle, ME– small; 15 smaul(e, ME–15 Sc. smaw, 17–18 Sc. sma', sma.(Show Less)
Etymology: Common Germanic: Old English smæl, = Old Frisian smel (West Frisian smel, North Frisian smēl), Middle Dutch (Dutch), Old Saxon (Middle Low German, Low German), Old High German (Middle High German) smal (German schmal), Old Norse smal-r (rare; Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish smal, are perhaps mainly from Low German), Gothic smal-s; connection with Old Norse and Icelandic smá-r (Norwegian and Danish smaa, Swedish små) small, Old High German smâhi (Middle High German smæhe) insignificant, is doubtful, and relationship to forms outside of Germanic (as Old Slavonic malŭ) somewhat uncertain. In the later Continental languages the prevailing sense is that of ‘slender’, ‘narrow’.

The form smale, representing Old English disyllabic forms, is common in Middle English and occurs as late as the 17th cent.

[Lenguas]

Some etymologies from the Oxford dictionary suggest that the pronunciation with the unrounded [ɑ] is more original than the one with the unrounded vowel

right

[księżycowy]

I looking to get a full text or two in Old and Middle English.
Currently I'm thinking:
Beowulf
and
The Canterbury Tales
Any thoughts, suggestions?

[sa wulfs]

Well, depends. If you want recommendations based on their literary value, then yes, go for Beowulf (shut up KH, it's good). If your goal is to learn or practice your Old English, however, it's probably a lot harder than would be recommended for a beginner (assuming you're one, of course). But of course there's not much else. You could get an anthology (I've found some interesting ones on Amazon), or maybe a reader, but the problem is they both would consist of fragmentary texts and wouldn't be as appealing from a narrative/literary point of view.

The Canterbury Tales is fine for both purposes, I think.

[JackFrost]

You know that you can get both for free on the Internet? Just print them out.

[sa wulfs]

Unedited, without notes, in an unappealing format!