Obscure languages

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Re: Obscure languages

Postby JackFrost » 2013-04-11, 17:56

I mean Luke. Anyways, I misquoted while copying and pasting and editing in the name. Sorry, Saim. :oops:
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-12, 0:41

Saim wrote:If ethnic Catalans are not the only Catalan nationalists, what makes this nationalism particularly more "ethnic" than Spanish nationalism or for that matter Canadian nationalism?
I'm not exactly sure how to define an ethnic Catalan. Is it someone whose ancestors were from Catalonia, or just someone who grew up speaking Catalan? Either way, I would guess the vast majority of pro-independence people are at least the latter.
I have no idea what you mean by "fascist-baiting" or what your problem with what I said is.
It was a misunderstanding. I thought you were calling anti-Catalan people fascists, but clearly I didn't read it very closely.

I'm sure you're familiar with the terms "red-baiting" and "race-baiting".
There's a difference between wanting it to be saved and wanting to save it.
Fair enough.
Look at the Barcelona Metropolitan Area (where most of the Catalonian population is concentrated!), the Tarragona Metropolitan Area, Northern Catalonia, large swathes of the Valencian Country (including the two main cities), Ibiza, urban Majorca and the Alguer, and get back to me on that.
Is it official anywhere? Do millions of children speak it daily? Then it's not in danger.
Theoretically it's not. It needs a serious change in attitudes in the Castilian-speaking areas of Spain, though. Catalans are seen by a disturbingly large portion of the Spanish population as some rowdy minority to only throw peanuts to keep quite, not a group of people to dialog with to try and develop a state that reflects the will of its citizens.
Well, that's not very nice of them.
In other words, people in the Basque Country and Catalonia support a plurinational federation, and then in places like Aragon, Castile and Leon, Extremadura etc. you have huge support for recentralization, as well as much more anti-Catalan sentiment than you'd find for example anti-Scottish sentiment in England or anti-French sentiment in English Canada (not that that's absent, we're just talking about matters of degree).
Why, though? Because they have no strong regional identity of their own, and can't see why it would matter so much to other people?
Knee-jerk defensiveness? I thought it was an interesting question so I wanted to discuss it with you.
I could be wrong, but it seems people get very, uh, passionate about Catalan and Irish and whatever here.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby JackFrost » 2013-04-12, 1:35

I'm not exactly sure how to define an ethnic Catalan. Is it someone whose ancestors were from Catalonia, or just someone who grew up speaking Catalan? Either way, I would guess the vast majority of pro-independence people are at least the latter.

They make up about 40% of the population. The support for independence is been in the 70% range for over a year now, so there is a large support from those who have Spanish as mother/primary language. This picture is the opposite of the Quebecois case.

Is it official anywhere? Do millions of children speak it daily? Then it's not in danger.

That is a rather simplistic thing to say.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby TeneReef » 2013-04-12, 1:38

If Catalonia were to become independent, they should keep Spanish as their 2nd language, and children should learn both languages, there should be one Spanish-language Catalan state tv channel (and from time to time Spanish language songs should be sent to the Eurosong contest), just like in the case of Swedish-speaking Finland. :mrgreen:

Finland has been sending Swedes to Eurosong for three years now, and last year they had a song in Swedish.
I think the Finnish model should be embraced in independent Catalonia.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-12, 1:49

JackFrost wrote:They make up about 40% of the population. The support for independence is been in the 70% range for over a year now, so there is a large support from those who have Spanish as mother/primary language. This picture is the opposite of the Quebecois case.
Fair enough. I didn't know about these figures. I may have assumed it was similar to Quebec because that's an analogous case I'm much more familiar with (and because linguistic rights are important in it as well).
That is a rather simplistic thing to say.
Explain how Catalan is an endangered language, then. I understand that some of the key factors in whether a language survives are inter-generational transmission of it to children, state support and codification (an official written norm). Catalan has all of these as far as I know. It comes in sixth out of all the Romance languages in terms of speakers. I'd say it's doing pretty well, objectively speaking.

Saim gives us anecdotes about the major cities in the Catalan-Valencian domain being full of Spanish speakers (I assume) but this doesn't necessarily mean the language is under threat. It's part of Spain, of course there are going to be lots of Spanish speakers.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby JackFrost » 2013-04-12, 2:12

Fair enough. It would be better to say it's not sufficiently protected then.

TeneReef wrote:If Catalonia were to become independent, they should keep Spanish as their 2nd language, and children should learn both languages, there should be one Spanish-language Catalan state tv channel

They have no choice and it's not really their goal to completely discastellanize the country anyways.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-12, 2:27

Fair enough. It would be better to say it's not sufficiently protected then.
How is it not?
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Saim » 2013-04-12, 2:45

Talib wrote:It was a misunderstanding. I thought you were calling anti-Catalan people fascists, but clearly I didn't read it very closely.

Alright, that's cool. :cheery:

Is it official anywhere? Do millions of children speak it daily? Then it's not in danger.

It's not in immediate danger of total extinction. It is in danger of disappearing from a very large part, if not most, of its historical domain.

Well, that's not very nice of them.

For me that's even a bit of an understatement.

A quick example of the kind of xenophobia that's around:
http://apuntem.cat/wp-content/uploads/2 ... cidis1.jpg (the website it comes from has a huge database of this shit)

And here's a longer article about it that I read before I knew Catalan:
http://www.nouscatalans.cat/index.php?o ... tingut=329

Why, though? Because they have no strong regional identity of their own, and can't see why it would matter so much to other people?

That's the thing, it's not a regional identity as you say. It's not a regional identity any more than being Scottish, Warlpiri or Tatar is a "regional identity". Nor are Anglo-Canadians really less Canadian than Castilians are Spanish (although I suppose the English would be less English), so that doesn't explain it either.

I could be wrong, but it seems people get very, uh, passionate about Catalan and Irish and whatever here.

The fact that I'm passionate about it doesn't necessarily mean I'm kneejerk in my defence. :P

TeneReef wrote:If Catalonia were to become independent, they should keep Spanish as their 2nd language, and children should learn both languages, there should be one Spanish-language Catalan state tv channel (and from time to time Spanish language songs should be sent to the Eurosong contest), just like in the case of Swedish-speaking Finland. :mrgreen:

Finland has been sending Swedes to Eurosong for three years now, and last year they had a song in Swedish.
I think the Finnish model should be embraced in independent Catalonia.

Truly applying the Finnish model would mean that:

1) A large portion of Catalans wouldn't know Spanish (as is the case of the ethnic Fins and their knowledge of Swedish), meaning that the Spanish national minority would have to switch to Catalan to interact with the dominant ethnic group (as is true for Finland Swedes).
2) People who habitually speak Spanish would be a minority (they're not), and that native-speakers of Catalan
3) Spanish-speakers were highly geographically concentrated. You can talk about the Spanish rings around Barcelona and Tarragona all you want, but they're much more connected to Catalan-speaking areas than could be said of the Swedish coastal areas of Finland.
4) The main bulk of immigrants to the country would have to integrate as Catalan-speakers, not as Spanish-speakers. As it stands now a large portion of the immigrant population moves into Spanish-speaking areas and adopts Spanish. That's not even mentioning the children of Latin American immigrants, very few of which end up adopting the local language as their main language of communication with other Catalans.

In other words, the "bilingualism" of Catalan society is not real bilingualism, as Catalan is facing linguistic substitution that Finnish is not (or isn't anymore, at least). The Finnish model reflects the needs of Finnish society, not those of Catalonia or the Catalan Countries. I'm not against it, but I feel that its application on Catalan society would result in a situation more like that of Ukraine or Belarus than that of Finland itself.

Come to think of it, the Finnish model is not even appropriate for Finland itself, as the State should be at least trilingual because of the Sami minority in the north. But that's another issue altogether.

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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Saim » 2013-04-12, 4:23

Talib wrote:Saim gives us anecdotes about the major cities in the Catalan-Valencian domain being full of Spanish speakers (I assume) but this doesn't necessarily mean the language is under threat. It's part of Spain, of course there are going to be lots of Spanish speakers.

I can give you more than just anecdotes.

Alicante:
http://www.cece.gva.es/polin/val/sies/ala_9402.htm (1994)

58.5% of residents claimed to speak very little or no Valencian.
10.57% spoke exclusively in Valencian at home, with an additional 6.89% more Valencian than Castilian.
Larger majorities always or mostly spoke Castilian at work, on the street, in shops, and among friends, meaning that many Valencian speakers don't use their language often. I did the 1994 figures because I wasn't paying attention, but if anything it's gotten worse by now.

Valencia:
http://www.cece.gva.es/polin/val/sies/val_2006.htm (2006)

43.7% of residents claimed to speak very little or no Valencian.
11% claimed to speak exclusively in Valencian at home, with an additional 6.1% speaking more Valencian than Castilian.
Larger majorities always or mostly spoke Castilian at work, on the street, in shops, and among friends, meaning that many Valencian speakers don't use their language often.

Ibiza (2001)
http://www.ibestat.cat/ibestat/estadist ... 03_0133.px (2001)

About 50% of the population claimed not to know how to speak Catalan. The level of Catalan was not asked, so it can be assumed that a certain portion of the people who said they can speak it knew very little.

Palma
http://www.ibestat.cat/ibestat/estadist ... 03_0133.px (2001)

41% of the population claimed not to speak Catalan. The same issue with Ibiza mentioned above is applied here. Keep in mind that the Palma represents almost a third of the Balearic population and half of Majorca's population.

Northern Catalonia
http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalunya_ ... la_llengua (2004)

37% of the population claimed to know how to speak Catalan.
0.3% only spoke Catalan at home, 0.3% more Catalan than French, 1.8% both equally, and 6.5% some Catalan but more French.
None of the people surveyed in the age bracket of 15-29 reported speaking Catalan with friends.

You don't even need to go to Perpinya to see how fucked the situation is there.

Tarragona and Barcelona Metropolitan Areas
http://www.vozbcn.com/2009/06/30/7683/u ... ona-dobla/ (2009)

"Habitual language used in Catalonia":
Image
Only 27.8% of people in the Barcelona Metropolitan Area reported Catalan as their dominant habitual language, while the Tarragona Metropolitan Area was a bit better at 33.1%. Now this is going away from statistics provided, but AFAIK it's a bit better in Barcelona city than in the metropolitan area, so that's a good sign, but places like Hospitalet, Badalona and Cornellà are really overwhelmingly Spanish-speaking.

As for the rest of Catalonia, there are Catalan majorities in the areas around Girona, Vic, Tortosa, Lleida and so on but there are still very substantial Castilian minorities.

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Re: Obscure languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-12, 15:12

Thanks a lot for the statistics, man. I appreciate you going through the effort to find all that information.

Still, it's not too dire. A majority in Valencia speaks Catalan and a large minority in Catalonia does. It's, like you said, the major metropolitan areas that seem to be dominated by Spanish. (Note this is not exactly encouraging since it means Catalan might become a rural, "provincial" language like Galician and you know what high prestige that language has in Spain.)
Saim wrote:It's not in immediate danger of total extinction. It is in danger of disappearing from a very large part, if not most, of its historical domain.
What do you propose as a solution? (Barring independence, which may never happen.)
A quick example of the kind of xenophobia that's around:
http://apuntem.cat/wp-content/uploads/2 ... cidis1.jpg (the website it comes from has a huge database of this shit)
Whoa, what the fuck? Catalans to the gas chamber? Drop bombs on Catalonia? Viva Franco? What is this shit?

I find it hard to believe these people actually exist, but then Spain wasn't a democracy until 30 years years ago. There are inevitably going to be people who were brainwashed by the reactionary viewpoints of the previous regime.
That's the thing, it's not a regional identity as you say. It's not a regional identity any more than being Scottish, Warlpiri or Tatar is a "regional identity". Nor are Anglo-Canadians really less Canadian than Castilians are Spanish (although I suppose the English would be less English), so that doesn't explain it either.
I'm kind of confused here. If Catalan isn't an ethnic identity, or a regional one, then what the hell is it? Linguistic?

(I would call Scottish a regional identity but definitely not Tatar.)
The fact that I'm passionate about it doesn't necessarily mean I'm kneejerk in my defence. :P
Alright, alright, I was being kind of hyperbolic.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Set » 2013-04-12, 15:43

Talib wrote:
A quick example of the kind of xenophobia that's around:
http://apuntem.cat/wp-content/uploads/2 ... cidis1.jpg (the website it comes from has a huge database of this shit)
Whoa, what the fuck? Catalans to the gas chamber? Drop bombs on Catalonia? Viva Franco? What is this shit?

I find it hard to believe these people actually exist, but then Spain wasn't a democracy until 30 years years ago. There are inevitably going to be people who were brainwashed by the reactionary viewpoints of the previous regime.

It's not that uncommon to here this kinda of stuff from Spaniards. I've known otherwise completely normal, well educated people who, when it comes to Catalonia, have some crazy hatred boiling inside them. I know this is just anecdotal, but it's definitely a more prominent trend than you would see from English people against Scots who want independence.

That said, there is plenty of hatred from the Catalans towards the Spanish too. However considering how much bigger Spain is and how much of a dick the government is towards the Catalans (like if you don't want Catalonia to leave, don't threaten them with boycotts for merely suggesting it), I have more sympathy with the Catalans. But then maybe I've just been brainwashed by the sea of flags...(there is one in my eyeline as I write this and couple more if I move slightly to the left).
Native:[flag=]en[/flag] Good:[flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ca[/flag] Focusing on:[flag=]fa[/flag][flag=]ku[/flag][flag=]ps[/flag] Interested in:[flag=]zza[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag]

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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Marah » 2013-04-12, 16:53

37% of the population claimed to know how to speak Catalan.

Here? In Northern Catalonia? No... I think 5% is a more accurate figure. I don't know that many people who can speak Catalan, let alone fluently.

Whoa, what the fuck? Catalans to the gas chamber? Drop bombs on Catalonia? Viva Franco? What is this shit?
I find it hard to believe these people actually exist, but then Spain wasn't a democracy until 30 years years ago. There are inevitably going to be people who were brainwashed by the reactionary viewpoints of the previous regime.


You also have to take into account that there's about 25% of the population unemployed, they're getting poorer everyday and they don't know what future holds. (Or maybe they do, it just holds more shit)
They think that if Catalunya, which in their eyes is seen as selfish for not wanting to share its wealth with the rest of Spain, obtained independence it would just get worse. They're afraid. And stupid too.
But mainly afraid.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby JackFrost » 2013-04-12, 17:25

What do you propose as a solution? (Barring independence, which may never happen.)

1) End the tranny of the majority.
2) Complete equality, not half-assed measures to keep the majority's fragile ego unbruised and from getting comically offended as if they're saying they did criminal shit.

The Canadian model would be a good example to follow (with minor tweaks).

I find it hard to believe these people actually exist, but then Spain wasn't a democracy until 30 years years ago. There are inevitably going to be people who were brainwashed by the reactionary viewpoints of the previous regime.

Franco is dead, long live Franco(ism).

The ideology doesn't necessarily die with the founder.

I mean, look at them, many are born well after the dictator's death. One was hoping that sort of shit would end thirty years ago, but nope, didn't happen. It even took well over thirty years to pass a law requiring removal of all Francoist symbols from public areas. And the party that is now the state government still hasn't expressed regret for the regime's activities. Hell, some members even speak fondly of it. After all, it founded by Francoists, which is why I tend to call them "franquistes reformats".

I'm kind of confused here. If Catalan isn't an ethnic identity, or a regional one, then what the hell is it? Linguistic?

He means that the Castillan-speaking areas think themselves as one, despite it divided into several autonomous communities. It's hard to measure Catalan ethnicity due to the steer lack of government statistics on ancestry and ethnic identities (Statistic Canada tracks them). It's a regional and linguistic identity basically, but it's fuzzier since the regions very often think of themselves only and aren't exactly comfortable being lumped up into one label, unlike the Castillan speakers.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-12, 17:39

JackFrost wrote:1) End the tyranny of the majority.
2) Complete equality, not half-assed measures to keep the majority's fragile ego unbruised and from getting comically offended as if they're saying they did criminal shit.
So by tyranny of the majority, you mean the reason Catalan isn't better protected is because the Spanish-speaking majority is against it?
The Canadian model would be a good example to follow (with minor tweaks).
What, privilege Catalan at the expense of Spanish? That's not equality, that's just over-zealous protectionism.

(I am not terribly fond of the language policy in Quebec.)
Franco is dead, long live Franco(ism).

The ideology doesn't necessarily die with the founder.

I mean, look at them, many are born well after the dictator's death. One was hoping that sort of shit would end thirty years ago, but nope, didn't happen. It even took well over thirty years to pass a law requiring removal of all Francoist symbols from public areas. And the party that is now the state government still hasn't expressed regret for the regime's activities. Hell, some members even speak fondly of it. After all, it founded by Francoists, which is why I tend to call them "franquistes reformats".
True enough. Communism is still big in Russia for some reason.
He means that the Castillan-speaking areas think themselves as one, despite it divided into several autonomous communities. It's hard to measure Catalan ethnicity due to the steer lack of government statistics on ancestry and ethnic identities (Statistic Canada tracks them). It's a regional and linguistic identity basically, but it's fuzzier since the regions very often think of themselves only and aren't exactly comfortable being lumped up into one label, unlike the Castillan speakers.
Gotcha.
Marah wrote:Here? In Northern Catalonia? No... I think 5% is a more accurate figure. I don't know that many people who can speak Catalan, let alone fluently.
Well you don't know everyone in Catalonia, now do you?
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Saim » 2013-04-12, 17:41

Talib wrote:
Saim wrote:It's not in immediate danger of total extinction. It is in danger of disappearing from a very large part, if not most, of its historical domain.
What do you propose as a solution? (Barring independence, which may never happen.)

Well certainly there's lots of activism that can be done within the Spanish and French states, although the levels of success will probably be lower without the independence of Southern Catalonia).

In all the Catalan territories of Spain:
-Allow Catalan to be used in the Spanish parliament
-Introduce Catalan in Spanish public media
-Make Catalan an official language at the central government level
-Make an explicit reference to it as a national language in the Spanish constitution
-Allow interautonomous (Valencian-Catalan-Balearic) and autonomous-central government communication to take place in Catalan
-Don't put in place a single trilingual education system for Valencia, the Balearics and Catalonia

In Valencia:
-Bring back TV3 (Catalonian public TV), which apparently will happen soon but it's shocking it was gone in the first place
-Introduce Catalan as the only language of Valencian public television, whereas nowadays it's mostly Spanish with a residual presence of Valencian, which makes it all the more worse that Catalonian public TV is not broadcast in Valencia
-Have the government join the Ramon Llull institute, currently only maintained by the Catalonian and Balearic governments
-Make sure that all students who want to study in Valencian can. In 2011, 200, 000 students were not able to study in Valencian because of a lack of places, meaning that there was a 51% demand for Catalan-medium education but only about half of that had acces to it

In the Balearics
-Don't remove the requirement of knowledge of Catalan for public officials
-Stop the plans of Bauzá to officialize the "Balearic language" and teach Majorcan, Menorcan, Formenterese and Ibizan separately in schools
-Reimpose Catalan as the preferential language of the administration

In the North:
-Turn Midi-Pyerenees into a Catalan collectivité territoriale on the model of Corsica
-Modify the French constitution to allow space for regional languages
-Introduction of Catalan as a medium of public education, rather than just being used in the private bressola

In the Eastern Strip of Aragon and the Alguer:
-Introduce Catalan as a vehicular language in schools and the main language used by the local municipal governments

A quick example of the kind of xenophobia that's around:
http://apuntem.cat/wp-content/uploads/2 ... cidis1.jpg (the website it comes from has a huge database of this shit)
Whoa, what the fuck? Catalans to the gas chamber? Drop bombs on Catalonia? Viva Franco? What is this shit?

I find it hard to believe these people actually exist, but then Spain wasn't a democracy until 30 years years ago. There are inevitably going to be people who were brainwashed by the reactionary viewpoints of the previous regime.

Yeah, definitely. Another thing though to ep in mind is that the PP, which currently governs throughout the State except in Catalonia and the Basque Autonomous Community, was founded by one of Franco's former ministers. It's not just Francoist brainwashing or inertia, these views are being actively propogated by the post-Franco far right.

With that context in mind it's not surprising that the Spanish education minister wants to Hispanicize Catalan schoolchildren or that a military colonel has publicly threatened Catalonia with invasion. More and more reasons why Catalonia =/= Quebec.

I'm kind of confused here. If Catalan isn't an ethnic identity, or a regional one, then what the hell is it? Linguistic?

(I would call Scottish a regional identity but definitely not Tatar.)

I don't deny that there is a Catalan ethnicity, I just don't think Catalan nationalism is ethnicist in the same way that could be said about the Lega Nord in Italy or the Vlaams Belang in Belgium, two far-right populist parties that happen to represent national minorities. Catalan sovereignty has little to do with ancestry or even the language spoken at home, although the movement does want more public use of Catalan. People who claim a "regional" Catalan identity are almost inevitably Spanish nationalists from the Barcelona Metropolitan Area, and who barely speak Catalan or even actively put it down.

If you don´t like the term "nationality" (although Catalonia is a historic nationality under Spanish law, and you can hear lots of moon logic from Spanish nationalists trying to justify that one). What I mean is that ethnic Catalans are not the people who share a Catalan national identity.

But hey, if you're gonna classify Scotland as a region, even though within the UK they're seen as a constituent country, then I suppose "Catalan" could be a regional identity. It seems to me they're kind of between the Scots and Tatars on the regional/ethnic scale, although closer to the Scots.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Marah » 2013-04-12, 17:44

Well you don't know everyone in Catalonia, now do you?

No, but I happen to live there. I've been living here my whole life so my wild guesses are definitely more accurate than those 37%.

Viquipèdia wrote:Les últimes dades sociolingüístiques de què disposa la Generalitat de Catalunya [1] (2004) reflecteixen que el francès és la llengua majoritària a la Catalunya del Nord, amb una presència minoritària del català. Habitualment parla francès el 92% de la població, català el 3,5%, ambdós idiomes un 1% i el 3,5% parla altres llengües.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby JackFrost » 2013-04-12, 18:03

So by tyranny of the majority, you mean the reason Catalan isn't better protected is because the Spanish-speaking majority is against it?

Yes. French-speaking one too.

Like it would be a nice start to stop kicking members from the Cortes' floor because they had the audacity to speak their language. That's what happened yesterday since they're pissed off about the Catalan Superior Court's ruling obligating a teacher or even the whole school to switch to Spanish upon request of one student. Whether the whole class or school wishes to stick to Catalan or not is irrelevant. What makes the injury more offensive is that the family that sued isn't Catalan or Spanish, but Argentine. In an interview, the father went to say that, "I lived in England for two years and I learnt English without being required to" (yeah, right) and answered to the question "Do you think that Catalan parents have the right to have their kids' education in Catalan?" with "Not even forty parents. Now, justice says I'm right." My, how arrogant and selfish. So, apparently, even Spanish-speaking non-Spaniards have more linguistic rights than the Catalans and others. Oh, that court ruling happened a few days ago, not years ago, not decades ago.

What, privilege Catalan at the expense of Spanish? That's not equality, that's just over-zealous protectionism.

I don't see how it would be at their expense since they would still have linguistic rights as well.

(I am not terribly fond of the language policy in Quebec.)

I know. I have good memory.
Last edited by JackFrost on 2013-04-12, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby Saim » 2013-04-12, 18:11

Talib wrote:So by tyranny of the majority, you mean the reason Catalan isn't better protected is because the Spanish-speaking majority is against it?

Yes. One of the main reasons for Catalan independence is so that Catalans have full control over their own language policy.

The Spanish-speaking majority in Catalonia is in favour of it, mind you. It's the foreign Spanish-speakers that are the issue.

Marah wrote:
Well you don't know everyone in Catalonia, now do you?

No, but I happen to live there. I've been living here my whole life so my wild guesses are definitely more accurate than those 37%.

I understand that the figures might be exaggerated, given that it's self-reported and people who may really just know how to say bon dia and adiu could count themselves. Don't quite a large portion students go to the private Bressola, though? And wouldn't the numbers really differ when you compare Perpinyà to the rural areas? Have you experienced much of rural Northern Catalonia? Furthermore;

Marah wrote:
Viquipèdia wrote:Les últimes dades sociolingüístiques de què disposa la Generalitat de Catalunya [1] (2004) reflecteixen que el francès és la llengua majoritària a la Catalunya del Nord, amb una presència minoritària del català. Habitualment parla francès el 92% de la població, català el 3,5%, ambdós idiomes un 1% i el 3,5% parla altres llengües.

There's a big difference between knowing Catalan and speaking it habitually. As far as I've read, the vast majority of North Catalans who have knowledge of their language don't use it particularly often. Like students from the Bressola who know Catalan from class but who speak French between themselves, or older people who understand the Catalan of their parents or grandparents or whatever and can manage to speak some but don't use it with people of their own generation.

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Re: Obscure languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-12, 18:25

Saim wrote:In all the Catalan territories of Spain:
-Allow Catalan to be used in the Spanish parliament
-Introduce Catalan in Spanish public media
-Make Catalan an official language at the central government level
-Make an explicit reference to it as a national language in the Spanish constitution
-Allow interautonomous (Valencian-Catalan-Balearic) and autonomous-central government communication to take place in Catalan
-Don't put in place a single trilingual education system for Valencia, the Balearics and Catalonia
Sounds good to me.
In Valencia:
-Bring back TV3 (Catalonian public TV), which apparently will happen soon but it's shocking it was gone in the first place
-Introduce Catalan as the only language of Valencian public television, whereas nowadays it's mostly Spanish with a residual presence of Valencian, which makes it all the more worse that Catalonian public TV is not broadcast in Valencia
-Have the government join the Ramon Llull institute, currently only maintained by the Catalonian and Balearic governments
-Make sure that all students who want to study in Valencian can. In 2011, 200, 000 students were not able to study in Valencian because of a lack of places, meaning that there was a 51% demand for Catalan-medium education but only about half of that had acces to it
Is this really necessary? More use of Catalan on public TV is fine, but let's not throw the Castillian baby out with the bathwater.
[...] More and more reasons why Catalonia =/= Quebec.
No kidding. I thought our separatist debate was acrimonious. Jeez.
I don't deny that there is a Catalan ethnicity, I just don't think Catalan nationalism is ethnicist in the same way that could be said about the Lega Nord in Italy or the Vlaams Belang in Belgium, two far-right populist parties that happen to represent national minorities. Catalan sovereignty has little to do with ancestry or even the language spoken at home, although the movement does want more public use of Catalan. People who claim a "regional" Catalan identity are almost inevitably Spanish nationalists from the Barcelona Metropolitan Area, and who barely speak Catalan or even actively put it down.
That's actually pretty funny.
If you don´t like the term "nationality" (although Catalonia is a historic nationality under Spanish law, and you can hear lots of moon logic from Spanish nationalists trying to justify that one). What I mean is that ethnic Catalans are not the people who share a Catalan national identity.
A nation may have a state, but there are stateless nations and vice versa, so I have no problem with calling it "the Catalan nationality".
But hey, if you're gonna classify Scotland as a region, even though within the UK they're seen as a constituent country, then I suppose "Catalan" could be a regional identity. It seems to me they're kind of between the Scots and Tatars on the regional/ethnic scale, although closer to the Scots.
Whoa whoa whoa, I didn't mean to imply anything about the political status of Scotland by saying that. Scotland is a geographical region as well as a constituent country. Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
JackFrost wrote:I don't see how it would be at their expense since they would still have linguistic rights as well.
If Spanish and Catalan speakers aren't going to have completely equal rights in every way, I don't really see the point of the whole exercise. You might as well just go full hog and declare independence if you're going to give Catalan speakers the upper hand.
Marah wrote:I've been living here my whole life so my wild guesses are definitely more accurate than those 37%.
Yeah, you know the plural of anecdote is not data, right?

I don't give a crap how long you've been living there. You aren't more unbiased than a poll is.
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Re: Obscure languages

Postby JackFrost » 2013-04-12, 18:37

Talib wrote:If Spanish and Catalan speakers aren't going to have completely equal rights in every way, I don't really see the point of the whole exercise. You might as well just go full hog and declare independence if you're going to give Catalan speakers the upper hand.

I said Canadian, not Quebecois. A difference because I am realistic enough that one official language isn't feasible due to figures and it wouldn't be a kind gesture to the Spanish speakers after showing support for Catalan-medium education* and independence.

*How popular? Only 17 families asked for Castillan-medium education for this school year. Last year, it was over 100.
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