My conlang so far: Halvian

[Mentilliath]

Thanks

And I know, right? I love the dual. Such an underrated number. I hate how it often disappears. Why do languages form a dual number only to have it become marginal and then ultimately disappear?

[Koko]

Maybe it disappears because not many things outside of body parts require it? I've made the dual a thing that's very practical: many foods come in pairs, many words whose English equivalents refer to two (couple, both, etc…) are inherently in the dual number, e più.

Have you done something similar?

Btw, I like how your a declension is very thematic.

[Mentilliath]

I can see why it disappears, but I wonder why it arises in the first place, if its fate is often to disappear.

I've done something similar with the dual in Halvian, yeah. Words like "both" and "two" are inherently dual (like they are in Latin, the last vestige of the dual in that language), and the dual is used for words like "eyes", "ears", "legs", etc.

And yeah, this declension is very thematic. There are 6 declensions. 5 of them are thematic (stems based on the 5 vowels), and one of them is the athematic "miscellaneous" declension, which is also one of the biggest haha. So we'll get to that one

[Koko]

I can see why it disappears, but I wonder why it arises in the first place, if its fate is often to disappear.

Hmm, when it did exist (as it still does in a small handful of languages), I suppose more things came in two? I mean, the word for door in many PIE's descendants have forms reminiscent of its dual, so maybe as less things were paired, so was disappearing the dual.

I've done something similar with the dual in Halvian, yeah. Words like "both" and "two" are inherently dual (like they are in Latin, the last vestige of the dual in that language), and the dual is used for words like "eyes", "ears", "legs", etc.

Latin did something similar? And there was thinking I was being unique >.< I feel as Itikar feels! That's why I like Czech: the dual is still apparent in a num er of words and the adjective "two."

And yeah, this declension is very thematic. There are 6 declensions. 5 of them are thematic (stems based on the 5 vowels), and one of them is the athematic "miscellaneous" declension, which is also one of the biggest haha. So we'll get to that one

Can't wait! Do your declensions usually have an assigned gender? I have various declensions for the sake of variety.

[Mentilliath]

I read about that "door" thing; that was interesting. Definitely seems to indicate doors were twos.

Slovenian I believe as well has a productive dual. I think as far as IE goes, only a few Slavic languages have duals that are still used.

My declensions don't really have assigned gender, but you can always tell a noun's gender by its nominative and/or genitive form. The declensions have gender tendencies, i.e. most 1st declension nouns are feminine, most 5th declension nouns are masculine. But say, if it is a masculine 1st declension or a neuter 5th declension, you'll be able to tell by the nominative. It isn't like in Latin where "classis" is feminine and "civis" is masculine and the only way to tell the gender is to memorize it.

[Koko]

Does -s generally indicate a masculine nominative of declensions not the fifth?

[Mentilliath]

-s is a marker of masculine, yeah. -s as an ending in the nominative singular always means masculine.

It can get confusing with the athematics because dos ('flower') is feminine, but it's not do + -s (which would make it masculine), it's dos + ∅.

[Koko]

Do words ever contrast between genders and declensions? Like, could "dos" for example contest a "do-s?" Or would géta contrast a géto (if that is a possible ending; which I am lead to believe by do-s)?

[Mentilliath]

There are a few examples, the main one being the words for "boy" and "girl" which are respectively "duéna" and "duéno". 2nd declension nouns (which I will post about soon) can have their nominative singulars end in either "-o" or "-os" (no semantic distinction between the two).

So far I haven't created any athematic/thematic pairs, like a hypothetical athematic "dos" with thematic 2nd declension "do-s", but it is possible. You'd tell the difference by the genitive. The former's genitive would be "dosís", the latter's would be "dósio".

[Koko]

The first declension has -a the thematic vowel; second has -o; I can really see PIE influenced morphology. Does one of them end in -i or -e?

[Mentilliath]

Yep. The declensions are based on Latin and are organized thusly:

1st Declension - thematic a-stem - mostly feminine
2nd Declension - thematic o-stem - mostly masculine
3rd Declension - thematic i-stem - mix of all genders
4th Declension - athematic consonant or long-vowel stem - mix of all genders
5th Declension - thematic u-stem - mostly masculine
6th Declension - thematic e-stem - mostly feminine

[Ashucky]

Hm, looks like it's been a while since I last read this thread

Slovenian I believe as well has a productive dual. I think as far as IE goes, only a few Slavic languages have duals that are still used.

Those would be only Slovenian and both Sorbian languages. The other Slavic languages have lost it.

I've done something similar with the dual in Halvian, yeah. Words like "both" and "two" are inherently dual (like they are in Latin, the last vestige of the dual in that language), and the dual is used for words like "eyes", "ears", "legs", etc.

Interestingly enough, for things that naturally come in pairs, Slovene uses plural and not dual. So if you want to say "I have eyes", it'd be plural. In such cases the dual is used only if you want to emphasise it, eg. "I have two eyes."

But the dual is otherwise used daily and regularly for everything else.


Btw, the language's looking pretty good!

[Koko]

Those would be only Slovenian and both Sorbian languages. The other Slavic languages have lost it.

Not completely. Czech has retained it in body parts and I think for a few others. Not forgetting the number dva/dvě. Slovak too, if I'm not mistaken.

Interestingly enough, for things that naturally come in pairs, Slovene uses plural and not dual. So if you want to say "I have eyes", it'd be plural. In such cases the dual is used only if you want to emphasise it, eg. "I have two eyes."

That makes me wonder the situation with Czech's dual.

[Mentilliath]

I did read that in some languages, the dual is not even used in cases like "eyes" and "ears" and such, but it's good to know that the dual is still used in everyday language in Slovene. I've tried to make the dual common wherever practical in Halvian, even if it still the least-used number. A common dual form in Halvian is the 1st person dual pronoun "hā", which is often used as "inclusive we" and can be translated as "you and I" (compare to "híme" and "ōns", the singular and plural 1st person pronouns).

Btw, the language's looking pretty good!

Thank you!

[Koko]

A common dual form in Halvian is the 1st person plural pronoun "hā", which is often used as "inclusive we" and can be translated as "you and I" (compare to "híme" and "ōns", the singular and plural 1st person pronouns).

Did you copy me? That's exactly the case of sia in Isyan, where sav (plural) is exclusive.

I wonder what else we've done in common, even outside the usage of the dual

[Mentilliath]

Haha I swear I did not know you had already done something like that, but that is cool that we have that in common

[Koko]

Yeah, same. And it looks like that's about all we have in common (language-wise). I looked through all the first declension endings and -a is the only thing common (but athematic for Isyan) and it's such a common noun ending it's not even worth making a fuss about.

Maybe there's similarities in vocabulary? We must investigate .

[Koko]

What's the infinitive of to go? The example in the first post leads me to believe that it's ówese. (I have a very good reason for wanting to know, but you'll find out eventually, so be patient)

Also, could I have a list of some words? Partly for the Halvian-Isyan equivalent of Michif (Halvisyan), partly for the reason above.

[Mentilliath]

"ōwei", the aorist 1st singular is derived from the aorist stem "ō-". The /w/ is epenthetic to avoid "ōei", which is too much hiatus for Halvian standards and the long /o/ (which I failed to indicate in the first post) is due to the augment combining with a vowel. The infinitive is "óthai". "-thai" is the athematic infinitive suffix*, seen in "léthai" "to be"). The thematic is -Vse.

*I ultimately derived it from the Sanskrit infinitive in "-dhyai"

And I will provide a list of words soon

[Koko]

Quomodo aliquid léthai coniugat?