The Papuan Languages Thread

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-02-20, 2:45

Yeah, I'll just skip the salini tirii no part. I think that will have to remain a mystery for God knows how long. :| But anyway, there's still the next two sentences:

Una'a wadu tina'a Raata ma'u nunu iamiire, 'The Eagle came and alighted on the waringin.'
Waluru ma'u horia iamiire. 'Pigeon came and alighted on the parna.'

We've already seen nunu, translated as 'waringin', and horia, translated as 'parna'. Raata means 'Eagle'. It seems pretty clear that ma'u...iamiire must mean 'came and alighted (on?)', and waluru must mean 'pigeon'.

All that is left in these sentences are the first three words una'a wadu tina'a. We already know that wadu means 'day', but we don't really know what tina'a means, and we've never seen una'a before in this text. There doesn't seem to be any easy solution to the question of what this means, but my best guess is something like 'then in those times'. (It's a part that's not translated in the translation of those sentences on that website).

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-03-12, 5:31

OK, actually, I still have to figure out just what iamiire means. I mean, clearly, it means something like 'sat down' (or 'alighted'), but then look at the next sentence:

Poje asapoje aramudumiire, Kaharlaini nunutarana namiire. 'Weed-bird sat down in the weeds, Magpie sat down on a branch of the waringin.'

Here, it looks like the words for 'sat down' are aramudumiire and/or namiire. Why is it iamiire in two of the sentences, aramudumiire in another, and namiire in a third? I guess I'll try to figure that out. Anyway, we already know that asa means 'bird', so poje must mean 'weed(s)'. We also know that kaharlain means 'magpie', and I guess kaharlaini includes a nominative case marker -i, or something like that. Finally, we know that nunu means 'waringin' (whatever that is!), so probably tarana means 'branch'.

OK, mir(e) means 'sit' (-e is a verbalizing suffix). But what about all this ia- and aramudu- and na-?

Well, according to this, in Fataluku (which is closely related to Oirata), locations and directions are frequently encoded as prefixes on the verb. Example (1) also has Fataluku mica- meaning 'up'; I wonder whether maybe that's cognate to the mudu in Oirata aramudu-.

Hmm, this paper suggests that ia'a is a postposition meaning 'on' in Oirata. (I think that paper will also prove to be more useful later on for learning a bit more Oirata. :)). Could it be that iamiire means 'sit on'? (Also, iamoi means 'to climb'. Maybe the ia- in that verb is more likely to be related to the ia- in iamiire than ia'a is).

According to this paper, mudu means 'inside' in Oirata. So maybe aramudumiire means (in this story) 'sat down in', and perhaps namiire means 'sat down on'. But then why would the 'down' part be ara in one word and not in the other?

Apparently (according to the Oirata-Indonesian dictionary), ara means 'tree', but I'm not sure whether that has anything to do with this. :hmm: (Oh, also according to that dictionary, Oirata nunu corresponds to Indonesian beringin (it says that, not "waringin"), which is this plant).

Hmm, that seems to be all I can find about iamiire, aramudumiire, and namiire, at least for now.

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-04-02, 20:08

OK, I've learned everything I've gone through in that story so far. I mean, given the translation, I can now tell what the original sentence in Oirata was without looking - I've gotten that far now. I even remember the next sentence:

Kaharlain ie Ráta asile íne: Rátei! 'Magpie said to Eagle: Eagle!'

I'm pretty sure íne means something like 'thus', because two sentences later we have wísare le íne translated as 'pronounced thus' (and in between, we see wísare by itself translated as something like 'pronouncement'). I'm guessing ie means 'to' and asile means 'said'. I think I already said this, but I also think Rátei! is the vocative case form of Ráta 'Eagle'.

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-15, 0:08

OK, now that I've reviewed the sentences I already went over (and before I go on to the next one), I just want to comment on this paragraph I posted earlier:
All that is left in these sentences are the first three words una'a wadu tina'a. We already know that wadu means 'day', but we don't really know what tina'a means, and we've never seen una'a before in this text. There doesn't seem to be any easy solution to the question of what this means, but my best guess is something like 'then in those times'. (It's a part that's not translated in the translation of those sentences on that website).

Now I think it probably means 'then on that day', or maybe 'then one day'.

On to the next sentence!

Apte uma dedemana soli to ate umare wísare to apte uma aran aun soli.
'We are living in the dark, so you first give your pronouncement, that we may live in the light.'

I think maybe apte means 'we', and I already know that uma means 'earth' and dedemana means 'night' or 'dark' or something. I guess soli means 'live'. Maybe to means something like 'so (that)' and ate means 'you'. If all that is right, I guess umare means 'give', aran means 'light' or 'bright' or something, and aun maybe means 'in'(?).

OK, today (the next day after I started this post :lol:), I found this paper, which is kinda cool: http://papuan.linguistics.anu.edu.au/Do ... onesia.pdf. It talks about the pronominal systems in a few Indonesian languages, including Oirata(!). I think it'll be pretty useful in my study of Oirata. :D It also clarifies that Oirata is spoken in only two villages, Oirata Barat and Oirata Timur ("barat" means 'west' and "timur" means 'east' in Indonesian), in southeastern Kisar (which makes sense since the speakers' ancestors probably came from East Timor).

Anyway, the paper says apte is the 1PL inclusive pronoun in nominative case. :) It lists the 2SG nominative pronoun as aate, which I guess is the same thing as the ate in this text. Also, it says that -to is the "'different referent' suffix," whereas -le is the "'same referent' suffix."

Also, it says ina means 'give'. Can't seem to find any confirmation for any of the other words yet, though. Certainly haven't found any for soli. Based on that paper, though, I think umare is uma 'earth' + -re, a topic suffix...Hmm, but that wouldn't make any sense in this context, really. Maybe it means 'first' or something.

Oh, by the way, I found this Fataluku-Portuguese dictionary online. It hasn't been very useful (at least, not yet). It says that coli (which you would think was the cognate for Oirata soli, based on that comparative paper that was the first one I posted the link to) means 'high' or 'tall' or something ("alto" in Portuguese), which doesn't fit this context at all. Oh, well. I guess I'll just live with my own guess. :P

EDIT: Wow, I just noticed that the last three posts I made in this thread all begin with "OK." :lol:

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-19, 17:08

I think it's about time I started doing a review of all the vocabulary I've gone through in this language!

Original text:
The Creator caused the large Sky and the Earth to become one. Apna-Apha pai to ina'a leene lapai o'o umajauele ita'uthelere.
The name of the large Sky was Maukou, the name of the Earth was Huimau. Leen lapai neene Maukou, umajauele tie neeneta Huimau.
In those times no plants were living yet. Wadu wanat tina'a ete-modo tarumodora tie onhali
except the parna and the waringin with big seeds. ha horia o'o nunu tapu lapai ta lause.
The earth was still in darkness. Uma ono koune kemene.
There was not yet a multitude of birds. Asa riunu salini tirii no onhali.
The Eagle came and alighted on the waringin Una'a wadu tina'a Raata ma'u nunu iamiire
Pigeon came and alighted on the parna. Waluru ma'u horia iamiire.
Weed-bird sat down in the weeds, Magpie sat down on a branch of the waringin. Poje asapoje aramudumiire, Kaharlaini nunutarana namiire.
Magpie said to Eagle: Eagle! Kaharlain ie Ráta asile íne: Rátei!
We are living in the dark, so you first give your pronouncement, that we may
live in the light. Apte uma dedemana soli to ate umare wísare to apte uma aran aun soli.

eagle = ráta
eagle (vocative case) = rátei!
seven = pitu
night/darkness(?) = dedemana
Creator(?) = Apna-Apha
either "earth" or "garden" = uma
"earth" (according to paper that says previous word means "garden" lol) = mua
Earth = umajauele
magpie = kaharlain
bird = asa
weed(?) = poje
big = lapai
sky = leen
make/work = pai
and = o'o
become one(???) = ita'uthelere
one = uwane or uani
name = neene
this = tie
possessive suffix = -ta, which goes on the possessum
I/me = ante
my name = antte neneta
sun = watu
day = wadu
night = wanat
tree = ete
child = modo
rope = taru
plants(???) = etemodo tarumodora
those(?) = tina'a
not yet = onhali
only? except? = ha
"parna" = horia
"waringin" = nunu
seed(?) = tapu
live (or grow, apparently) = lause
still = ono
thousand(?) = riunu
came (or come?) = ma'u
sit = mir(e) (or maybe miir(e)?)
inside = mudu
on = ia'a
sit on(?) = iamiire
sit down in(??) = aramudumiire
sit down on(?) = namiire
branch(?) = tarana
to(?) = ie
we (inclusive) = apte
see = asi
you (sg) = ate

Bonus vocabulary! :P
sharp = a ate
knife = ululu
this sharp knife = ululu tie a ate
today = ina watu tina'a
empty = mamuka
(prefix for multiples of ten) = ta an-

I thought originally that asile íne meant 'said thus' or something like that, but now I know that's not right. I learned from this paper (which I mentioned before on Mar. 12) that asi means 'see', and I learned from that (more recently) and another paper (less recently) that -le is the same-referent marker. So what it probably means is something like "saw and said." Kaharlain ie Ráta asile íne is translated as "Magpie said to Eagle," but probably a better translation is "Magpie saw Eagle and said (to him?)."

Maybe I should just leave it at that for now. :lol: I mean, let me just look for any missing words in the various resources I've found so far for this language (or find any other resources that might help).

Hmm, can't seem to find anything for now. Probably best to just review what I've learned here and then move on to the next part of the passage.
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2015-08-24, 16:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-25, 23:52

OK, I actually did a reasonably good job remembering all of that vocab. :) So here's the next sentence in that text:

Tetu Ráta wísare le íne: dedemana pitu, iri uma aranie pitu tono uma ali lauare!
'Then Eagle pronounced thus: seven nights, seven days, then again darkness!'

So without trying to look anything up, I guess tetu means 'then', Ráta wísare le íne would literally mean 'Eagle pronounced and said', dedemana pitu means 'seven nights' ("seven darknesses" doesn't really make sense here, does it? :P So maybe uma dedemana, which the translation seems to suggest means 'darkness', literally means 'night land'), iri uma aranie pitu must mean 'seven days' (already know uma and pitu; dunno why there's the -ie on aran there), and finally tono uma ali lauare must mean (something like) 'then again darkness'.

Hmm, so the new words here are tetu, iri, (aran)ie, tono, ali, and lauare. Wow, six brand-new words in that one sentence! :lol:

OK, this is weird. Apparently, iri means 'urine'. :? The dictionary also lists lawar (with pronounciation [lawar(e)]) as meaning "gelap, hitam malam hari." So, "dark, black night." So I guess lauare is the word that really means 'darkness', and dedemana really just means 'night'. Tono means 'again'. The dictionary says "lagi, nanti, kemudian" - 'again, later'. (Nanti and kemudian both mean 'later' in Indonesian :P).

So now, I guess that leaves tetu, ali, and maybe (aran)ie.

Oh, note also that the paper on Leti lists "wiisara" (in Oirata) as meaning 'talk/speech'.

Hmmm, dunno what to do about those words I didn't manage to figure out. :| Oh, well. I'll just list the ones I did:

Then Eagle pronounced thus: seven nights, seven days, then again darkness! = Tetu Ráta wísare le íne: dedemana pitu, iri uma aranie pitu tono uma ali lauare!

urine(???) = iri
again = tono
darkness = lauar

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-09-29, 9:41

I've found a book about the Alor-Pantar languages. It can be downloaded for free:

http://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/22
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-11-28, 18:48

This looks like a really interesting book and probably useful for me since I'm studying Teiwa (and the book I'm using, thanks to Google Books, is by the editor, Marian Klamer). :) Thanks so much, Massimiliano!

Anyway, back to the story I was going through in Oirata. I'd already finished going through part 1. From now on, the recordings (for the other parts) are only partly transcribed and translated. For example, for part 2, we have a recording that's considerably longer than the transcript, but all we see in the transcript is:

Kaharlain wiisar ti nawarware le iine: .... 'As Magpie heard this pronouncement he said: ....'

and then "(...)" and:

"... apte uma aran aun soli" = that we may live in the light

We've already seen that line before. There isn't much new material here, so we might as well move on to part 3. But before we do, I'd like to comment on the recording for part 2. It almost sounds like the speaker is recording the same part twice (but he's not really; the story is just a bit repetitive). It also kind of sounds like the birds are coming to some sort of agreement as to how they can come to live in a world with light. :P

As with part 2, there are two parts to part 3 as well. In this case, it is the earlier part that is pretty self-explanatory:

"Tetu Pojeasa wiisare: dedemana pitu, iri uma aranie pitu ...." = 'Then Weed-bird pronounced: seven nights, seven days ....

And then:

....dedemana uani le aiti iiri. = succeeding each other until now.

Once again, the recording for this part sounds a bit repetitive, but at least it looks like the birds in the story have decided how this is going to work out. :P

It looks like nawarware means something like 'heard'. Indeed, this list I mentioned earlier says that 'to hear' in Oirata is 'wari. I'm guessing ti means 'this'.

Omg, I just realized that the apostrophe in the forms from that websites show stress and aren't supposed to be glottal stops. Whoops. :lol: Well, anyway, I guess the only other part that's particularly puzzling at this point is uani le aiti iiri. :P

So uani I guess is the same as what that website mentioned as uwane, because the third link I mentioned in this thread (an Indonesian paper) translates oplese as "stoples" and oplese uani as "satu stoples." I have no idea what "stoples" means, but who cares? I know what "satu" means - one! And that's the relevant part for now. ;) :P

But then what about aiti iiri? :hmm:

Well, aiti might be related to aita'a, which is listed in that Oirata-English dictionary as meaning 'now' (sekarang). But iiri may have to remain a mystery. I'm not even sure there's really anything for me to quiz myself over here, except maybe the word for 'to hear'. The dictionary also lists aita'u, but that means 'gurita', i.e. octopus lol.

Oh well, I think I've pretty much memorized the relevant lines here. :lol:

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-24, 16:41

I've done so much on this language already (and so little on Dinka, for example...) that I think I'll just allow myself to quiz myself over those last few lines and words instead of actually learning anything new yet. :lol:

Kaharlain wiisar ti nawarware le iine = As Magpie heard this pronouncement he said
dedemana uani le aiti iiri = succeeding each other until now

heard(?) = nawarware
to hear = wari
now = aita'a

I better also change the word for 'one' in my list with the spoilers and add "uani." I'll do that now.

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-16, 6:21

Holy crap! It's been almost a whole year since I last posted on this thread! :shock: Well, I have bad news for Oirata. The source I was getting the text for the origin myth from is now a dead link. I tried using the Wayback Machine on it, but it doesn't work because of robots.txt. :|

So I guess I'll just...list four words from here instead because I don't really have anything better to do right now as far as this language is concerned:

hand = tana
leg/foot = yakeles
left = wel
right = tenen

EDIT: Also, here's a documentary in Indonesian with English subtitles about the Oirata people! It has some Oirata words in it, too. I might eventually use it.

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-25, 4:17

Here's another neat paper on Oirata, specifically on causatives in Oirata compared to Meher and "Melayu Tenggara Jauh" (is that the same thing is Ambonese Malay?). It also happens to have some very(?) useful cultural background information.

Also, I found an archived version of fataluku.com at last! Alas, I still cannot seem to access parts of the story other than the very first part. Still, here's the link to the beginning of the story, and here's the associated audio recording.

I think this time, I'll just list the lexical pairs in Oirata listed in this paper on Leti (the Austronesian language spoken on a nearby island) I mentioned earlier:

proa/boat or canoe/boat = rusunu/raini
water/wood = ira/ada
word/talk, speech = lukunu/wiisara
woman/man = tuhuru/nami
ivory/gold = odo/lawan

(And of course wadu/wanat)

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Re: The Papuan Languages Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-10-16, 5:51

I'm going to try to come up with ways of remembering these words I haven't quizzed myself on yet. Oh, I just came up with a dumb mnemonic for 'gold'! It sounds like "Lao one." Oh, and that works even better because I have a picture in a book of mine of Lao workers panning for gold, and that's the only picture I have of people panning for gold!! And 'ivory' sounds like the way Malayalees would say 'auto(rickshaw)'. So maybe I could make up a story that the picture of the people who took an "auto" to work and then panned for gold was the "Lao one." :P

Oh, and I just realized that the word lukunu 'word' exists in Fataluku at the beginning of the second line of a song I posted in Fataluku! :o Specifically, this song, called "Iharala." And I had figured a mnemonic for 'boat' based on 'water' but not for 'proa/canoe'. 'Wood' sounds like the usual word in Indian languages for 'wheat flour'. EDIT: And is that also the same as the word for 'fire' according to the two sources I mention two paragraphs below this one?! :shock: I've never seen anything like that before, but you know what? That actually makes sense!

And here's another dumb mnemonic for 'woman' and 'man', a pair I've been struggling with: In that song I just linked to, there are pictures of women, specifically two who rue (something). But then there's a picture of a man (and then another) saying in Swahili, "nami ninakiliyo!" (I'm crying, too!). And then the tuhuru gets into the rusunu - that's almost like the syllables of tuhuru switched and then subjected to a few sound changes!

Well that was fun! :D Now, here are some more words from this source I used and this other one:

fish = ahi
lake = ira lapai (this is really only from the first source, but that should be easy enough to remember! Right?)
dog = ihar
tongue = uhul
wind = hari
to hit = uda
to die, be dead = umu
to kill = udaumu

And here are the older words so I can quiz myself over them!

hand = tana
leg/foot = yakeles
left = wel
right = tenen
proa/boat or canoe/boat = rusunu/raini
water/wood = ira/ada
The word for 'wood' might also mean 'fire'.
word/talk, speech = lukunu/wiisara
woman/man = tuhuru/nami
ivory/gold = odo/lawan


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