razlem - Gaeilge

Moderator: kevin

User avatar
razlem
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2011-01-10, 3:28
Real Name: Ben
Gender: male
Location: San Francisco
Country: US United States (United States)

razlem - Gaeilge

Postby razlem » 2014-08-26, 6:09

Dia duit!

I've just started the Gaeilge course on Duolingo, and my Wanderlust has gotten the better of me. I'm going to ask questions here so I can keep an archive of my progress/notes.

So I guess my first question should be: what are the general rules regarding palatalization and velarization of consonants around vowels?

Go raibh maith agaibh!
Last edited by razlem on 2014-08-26, 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
American English (en-us)::German (de)::Standard Spanish (es) Swedish (sv) Mandarin (zh)::Choctaw (cho) Finnish (fi) Irish (ir) Arabic (ar)
Image wia wi nehas-kolwatos lae angos! Check out my IAL Angos
Image Contributor to the Houma Language Project
I have a YouTube channel! I talk about languages and stuff: Ben DuMonde

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-26, 11:43

Hey, nice to see a new learner from the established members :).

razlem wrote:
So I guess my first question should be: what are the general rules regarding palatalization and velarization of consonants around vowels?

Go raibh maithe agaibh!


That's one of the easiest parts of the spelling system - there is a rule "Caol le caol, leathan le leathan." - "Slender with slender, broad with broad". This means that all "slender" (palatalised) consonants will be flanked orthographically by slender vowels (i, e, í, é) and "broad" (velarised) consonants by broad vowels (a, o, u, á, ó, ú). There are occasional exceptions, but they are rare.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-26, 12:47

The main exception I can think of is the adverbial prefix a- which is always spelled that way even when it comes before a slender consonant, e.g. aniar "from the west". Inexplicably, though, "today" is spelled inniu (horribly misleading for Munster, where the pronunciation is actually /əˈnʹuv/); a reasonable supradialectal spelling would be aniugh. Some compounds (generally recent ones) ignore the rule as well, e.g. idiraisnéis "parenthesis".
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-26, 18:43

The only single-morpheme word I can think of that breaks the rule is ospidéal, all the others are prefixes (as in Linguoboy's example), e.g. foréigean, comhghreamú and by etymology anseo, ansin and ansiúd.

Linguoboy wrote:Inexplicably, though, "today" is spelled inniu (horribly misleading for Munster, where the pronunciation is actually /əˈnʹuv/); a reasonable supradialectal spelling would be aniugh.


Would aniubh not be better? -ubh would be /u:/ in Ulster, /ʊ/ or /ə/ in Connacht and /ʊv/ or /əv/ in Munster, wouldn't it? Doesn't that correspond also to the endings of "inniu" in those dialects?

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-26, 19:34

Ciarán12 wrote:The only single-morpheme word I can think of that breaks the rule is ospidéal, all the others are prefixes

This one breaks the rule for a good reason. In general, consonant clusters agree in secondary articulation. That is, the consonants are either all broad or all slender. But /s/ before labials is an exception. So the p is slender but the s is broad, and the orthography reflects that.

Ciarán12 wrote:
Linguoboy wrote:Inexplicably, though, "today" is spelled inniu (horribly misleading for Munster, where the pronunciation is actually /əˈnʹuv/); a reasonable supradialectal spelling would be aniugh.

Would aniubh not be better? -ubh would be /u:/ in Ulster, /ʊ/ or /ə/ in Connacht and /ʊv/ or /əv/ in Munster, wouldn't it? Doesn't that correspond also to the endings of "inniu" in those dialects?

To be honest, I'm not sure. I'd have to check an authoritative source.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
razlem
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2011-01-10, 3:28
Real Name: Ben
Gender: male
Location: San Francisco
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby razlem » 2014-08-31, 19:12

I've heard ''chucu" pronounced as both /kuku/ and /xuxu/, but not as /xuku/ (at least, not that I've heard yet). Would there be a reason why?
American English (en-us)::German (de)::Standard Spanish (es) Swedish (sv) Mandarin (zh)::Choctaw (cho) Finnish (fi) Irish (ir) Arabic (ar)
Image wia wi nehas-kolwatos lae angos! Check out my IAL Angos
Image Contributor to the Houma Language Project
I have a YouTube channel! I talk about languages and stuff: Ben DuMonde

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-31, 19:17

razlem wrote:I've heard ''chucu" pronounced as both /kuku/ and /xuxu/, but not as /xuku/ (at least, not that I've heard yet). Would there be a reason why?


I pronounce it /xuku/, but the pronunciation /kuku/ might be explained by non-natives using English phones or natives with a heavily Anglicised phonology. I can't think of a reason for /xuxu/ though...

User avatar
razlem
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2011-01-10, 3:28
Real Name: Ben
Gender: male
Location: San Francisco
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby razlem » 2014-08-31, 20:00

Maybe /huhu/?
American English (en-us)::German (de)::Standard Spanish (es) Swedish (sv) Mandarin (zh)::Choctaw (cho) Finnish (fi) Irish (ir) Arabic (ar)
Image wia wi nehas-kolwatos lae angos! Check out my IAL Angos
Image Contributor to the Houma Language Project
I have a YouTube channel! I talk about languages and stuff: Ben DuMonde

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-31, 20:58

I could see [h] as a realisation of /x/ for some speakers (as an Anglicism, as opposed to the more normal [k]), but that still wouldn't explain [h] for /k/. Where did you hear this? Is it on the Duolingo course?

User avatar
razlem
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2011-01-10, 3:28
Real Name: Ben
Gender: male
Location: San Francisco
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby razlem » 2014-08-31, 21:36

Yep. Based on the comments, I think the speaker (a female) is from Munster. She also says /gwe:lgə/ (Gaeilge).
American English (en-us)::German (de)::Standard Spanish (es) Swedish (sv) Mandarin (zh)::Choctaw (cho) Finnish (fi) Irish (ir) Arabic (ar)
Image wia wi nehas-kolwatos lae angos! Check out my IAL Angos
Image Contributor to the Houma Language Project
I have a YouTube channel! I talk about languages and stuff: Ben DuMonde

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-08-31, 22:38

razlem wrote:Yep. Based on the comments, I think the speaker (a female) is from Munster. She also says /gwe:lgə/ (Gaeilge).


I just did a bit of the placement test to see what it sounded like - her pronunciation sounds very strange to me in places. I read a comment there that said it was a Connemara speaker (so Connacht, not Munster), but even so I think she sounds weird. If you want to double check the pronunciation of a word you can try the pronunciation section of this dictionary or this voice synthesiser.

Also, in Munster the word for the language is "Gaelainn" - /gɤeːlɤənʲ/, not "Gaeilge" - /gɤeːlʲ(ə)gʲə/, though the latter is the standard so I would imagine it is fairly common there nowadays.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-01, 4:17

Ciarán12 wrote:
razlem wrote:Yep. Based on the comments, I think the speaker (a female) is from Munster. She also says /gwe:lgə/ (Gaeilge).

Also, in Munster the word for the language is "Gaelainn" - /gɤeːlɤənʲ/, not "Gaeilge" - /gɤeːlʲ(ə)gʲə/, though the latter is the standard so I would imagine it is fairly common there nowadays.

Furthermore, the Munster 3P of chun is /'xuːhə/. Chucu looks Connemara to me.

[h] is a common realisation of /xʹ/ in Munster, particularly in non-initial position but occasionally initially as well (e.g cheana). Very rarely, /x/ is also realised as [h] (e.g. droch-aimsir [ˌd̪ˠɾˠɔ'haimʲʃɪɾʲ]).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-09-01, 10:01

linguoboy wrote:Furthermore, the Munster 3P of chun is /'xuːhə/. Chucu looks Connemara to me.


Is see, maybe that's what razlem is hearing then? Also, how do they write that normally? Chúiche?

linguoboy wrote:[h] is a common realisation of /xʹ/ in Munster, particularly in non-initial position but occasionally initially as well (e.g cheana). Very rarely, /x/ is also realised as [h] (e.g. droch-aimsir [ˌd̪ˠɾˠɔ'haimʲʃɪɾʲ]).


I always thought "cheana" was a one-off.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-01, 12:07

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Furthermore, the Munster 3P of chun is /'xuːhə/. Chucu looks Connemara to me.

Is see, maybe that's what razlem is hearing then? Also, how do they write that normally? Chúiche?

chútha

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:[h] is a common realisation of /xʹ/ in Munster, particularly in non-initial position but occasionally initially as well (e.g cheana).

I always thought "cheana" was a one-off.

B'fhéidir go bhfuil an ceart agat.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
razlem
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2011-01-10, 3:28
Real Name: Ben
Gender: male
Location: San Francisco
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby razlem » 2014-09-03, 17:22

When do I use "Dé" and "Mí"?
American English (en-us)::German (de)::Standard Spanish (es) Swedish (sv) Mandarin (zh)::Choctaw (cho) Finnish (fi) Irish (ir) Arabic (ar)
Image wia wi nehas-kolwatos lae angos! Check out my IAL Angos
Image Contributor to the Houma Language Project
I have a YouTube channel! I talk about languages and stuff: Ben DuMonde

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-03, 17:53

razlem wrote:When do I use and ?

Use when the usage is adverbial, e.g. Tosóidh mé Dé Luain "I'll start on Monday". Don't use it if there's a preposition or the adjective gach, e.g. Fan go Luan "Wait till Monday", Bím ag obair ó Luan go hAoine "I'm working Monday till Friday", Tá sé dúnta gach Luan/ar an Luan "It's closed Mondays".

Exception: Déardaoin is invariable. E.g. Inniu an Déardaoin. Déardaoin seo chugainn a thiocfaidh sé. "Today is Thursday. He'll come next Thursday."

The usage of is a bit different because it's often part of the names of the months, e.g.
mí na Bealtaine "May". I don't know if you're learning the colloquial names or the literary ones which were reintroduced through the school system.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-09-03, 17:58

linguoboy wrote:I don't know if you're learning the colloquial names or the literary ones which were reintroduced through the school system.


There are alternative names for the months?

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-03, 18:10

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I don't know if you're learning the colloquial names or the literary ones which were reintroduced through the school system.

There are alternative names for the months?

Sea. I imagine you learned to call "February" mí Feabhra. I learned a Munster colloquial form, mí na féile Bríde. It some places it is (or was) called mí na bhfaoilleach (from a term meaning "remains [of the year]" originally applied to only the first half of the month).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3478
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-09-03, 18:18

linguoboy wrote:Sea. I imagine you learned to call "February" mí Feabhra. I learned a Munster colloquial form, mí na féile Bríde. It some places it is (or was) called mí na bhfaoilleach (from a term meaning "remains [of the year]" originally applied to only the first half of the month).


Wow, I have never come across those colloquial forms before, that's really cool. Do you know of anywhere I could see a list of the colloquial names? Googling around has only yielded the literary ones so far.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23331
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: razlem - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-03, 19:11

Ciarán12 wrote:Do you know of anywhere I could see a list of the colloquial names? Googling around has only yielded the literary ones so far.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/philo-celticsociety/conversations/topics/5787
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


Return to “Celtic Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest