Double Citizenship

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Levike
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Double Citizenship

Postby Levike » 2013-05-03, 19:32

Is it a good thing that someone is in the same time a CITIZEN OF TWO COUNTRIES?

Here in Transylvania every Hungarian speaking person
is invited to become a citizen of The Hungarian Republic
even if he/she never visited the country.

I'll do it because ... I don't have to pay a single cent so ... naaaaa Why Not :yep: !

But what's your opinion about having Double or Triple Citizenship ?
Being in the same time Canadian, Russian, Chinese or maybe Philipino :hmm:
Last edited by Levike on 2013-05-03, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-03, 19:50

I don't see a problem with it at all :)

1) If you flee your home country and settle down in another country you won't miss out on any rights in your new country, but on the other hand if your old country stops being a dictatorship or religious tensions go down or similar, you're still free to move back without missing out on any rights then either.

2) If your parents are from different countries, you can choose freely which of the two you want to live in, and don't have to be hindered by the choice they made. And if they chose a third country to raise you in, I don't see a problem with you getting citizenship in all three countries.

3) In the case of Hungarian-speaking Transylvanians, it gives those people an easier access to more universities and such using their native language as a medium, while that's less of a problem for Romanian-speaking Transylvanians since they already have all the ones using Romanian in Romania itself and Moldova.
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md0
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby md0 » 2013-05-03, 19:59

I have a different problem with citizenship that is related to double citizenship.
Young men who were born with the Cypriot citizenship (by right of blood) AND the citizenship of the country they reside in, when they come to Cyprus and they are enlistment age, they are forced to serve in the military. They might not even speak Greek but they are forced to serve. During my time I've seen a number of unlucky guys who came to their father's homeland and they were stopped from leaving before they completed a national service.

Anyway, I'm with Johanna on that.
I consider the right to choose the country you want to contribute to to be a fundamental one.

Having said that, if I obtain another EU citizenship at some point, and I consider my country to be still a wreck after what I consider an acceptable period for change to happen, I'd renounce it. I don't want to have obligations to a country that doesn't respect me. Be it taxes, by it military reserve, etc.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-03, 20:09

Oh yes, forced military service...

But AFAIK, it is possible to renounce your citizenship if you have another one, isn't it? Then you can go to Cyprus as a British citizen or whatever and not having to serve?
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby md0 » 2013-05-03, 20:13

Johanna wrote:Oh yes, forced military service...

But AFAIK, it is possible to renounce your citizenship if you have another one, isn't it? Then you can go to Cyprus as a British citizen or whatever and not having to serve?

Most of them are unaware that they have to serve so they don't renounce their citizenship before they visit. And they don't keep up with the changes of the law either. It used to be that you have to serve only if your father was Cypriot and gave you the citizenship by right of blood, but now it applies for both parents.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-03, 20:28

Yeah, Cyprus is supposed to be a civilised western country...

A lot of 2nd generation immigrants here look these things up and often renounce the citizenship of their parents' country, because those countries are often dictatorships, and being a Swedish citizen only will grant you help from Swedish authorities if something bad happens to you there, while if you have dual citizenship it's seen as a domestic thing.

Forced military service is one of the things usually on the "bad things that could happen" list, but it's not the top one.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby md0 » 2013-05-03, 20:45

A lot of 2nd generation immigrants here look these things up and often renounce the citizenship of their parents' country, because those countries are often dictatorships, and being a Swedish citizen only will grant you help from Swedish authorities if something bad happens to you there, while if you have dual citizenship it's seen as a domestic thing.

Very good point.
It'shard to be in favour or against dual citizenship, really. It doesn't seem to be a controversial topic (we can share experiences, I guess).
If people acquire a citizenship well, it's their right to exercise it or renounce it as they see it serves them best.


Forced military service is one of the things usually on the "bad things that could happen" list, but it's not the top one.

Some militaries are worse than others. I mean, a normal military service vs military service under a military dictatorship that harms the country's own people or during a war that you disagree with (or if you disagree with all wars -let's not talk about the right of C.O.s in Cyprus because you people will rightfully demand Cyprus to be expelled from EU forever).
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-03, 20:55

meidei wrote:
Johanna wrote:Forced military service is one of the things usually on the "bad things that could happen" list, but it's not the top one.

Some militaries are worse than others. I mean, a normal military service vs military service under a military dictatorship that harms the country's own people or during a war that you disagree with (or if you disagree with all wars -let's not talk about the right of C.O.s in Cyprus because you people will rightfully demand Cyprus to be expelled from EU forever).

Yeah... One of the people I kind of knew who did that was a citizen of Syria, and this was 4 years before the Arab Spring at that. I guess that being a part of a minority (Syriac, so Orthodox Christian) not doing too well in a country like that played a part, since he'd be forced to do stuff against his friends and family pretty much.

And to be honest, after what you've hinted at, I'm surprised that we haven't kicked you out already :P
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby md0 » 2013-05-03, 21:05

If I don't risk making you think that, then here's the paper :P
It's to be published soon, that's a version the author released for crowdsourced proof-reading.
(But please keep us into EU. Without EU laws taking priority over domestic laws this country will become a real Middle-Eastern shithole)

Fygostratia, issuu.pdf
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-03, 21:30

Too much to read on a Friday night :P

But I will in a few days :)
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Kenny » 2013-05-03, 23:45

My problem with dual citizenship is people who don't live in-country and don't pay taxes there having a say in what happens to people who do (via voting). I mean people who speak the national language natively and who are "stuck" in another country for political/historic reasons going back a ways as is the case of Hungarians living in Transylvania, Slovakia etc. should be allowed to acquire Hungarian citizenship without much hassle and benefit from most of the things other Hungarians born here do but as long as they don't live here long-term and don't pay taxes I don't think it's right to allow them to vote since they're voting about something whose effect on them is marginal compared to people who actually live here.

(My main problem is that political parties can appeal to these democratics in ways that will make it highly likely for such citizens to vote for them without considering other aspects of said parties' policies. Like, say, you can have a party that guarantees certain rights to "foreign-born" voters and that will make it more likely for those people to vote for them without worrying much about potentially disastrous past and future decisions "homeland" voters will take the brunt of.)

I'm not saying that, say, Transsylvanian Hungarians are any less Hungarian than I am, but pragmatically speaking, I think this is a problem.

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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Levo » 2013-05-05, 20:25

Kenny wrote:My problem with dual citizenship is people who don't live in-country and don't pay taxes there having a say in what happens to people who do (via voting). I mean people who speak the national language natively and who are "stuck" in another country for political/historic reasons going back a ways as is the case of Hungarians living in Transylvania, Slovakia etc. should be allowed to acquire Hungarian citizenship without much hassle and benefit from most of the things other Hungarians born here do but as long as they don't live here long-term and don't pay taxes I don't think it's right to allow them to vote since they're voting about something whose effect on them is marginal compared to people who actually live here.

(My main problem is that political parties can appeal to these democratics in ways that will make it highly likely for such citizens to vote for them without considering other aspects of said parties' policies. Like, say, you can have a party that guarantees certain rights to "foreign-born" voters and that will make it more likely for those people to vote for them without worrying much about potentially disastrous past and future decisions "homeland" voters will take the brunt of.)

I'm not saying that, say, Transsylvanian Hungarians are any less Hungarian than I am, but pragmatically speaking, I think this is a problem.


Kenny, relax.

No-one can vote unless he doesn't have an announced place of living in the territory of the country, and is not available of any social security unless he pays regular tax to the Hungarian state.

Brazilian dual citizens don't control the inner affairs of Portugal :D
As well as Argentinian and Uruguayian voters don't make parties to govern in Italy and Spain. :D

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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby md0 » 2013-05-05, 20:55

On that matter, last February's presidential election here was open to expats too, with ballots open in embassies/community centres in countries with significant Cypriot expat population (Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Greece, USA, UK, Qatar, Bahrain, Hungary, Saudi Arabia). Among them there must be holders of dual citizenship, eg Cypriot Brits (or British Cypriots I guess... Charlies in any case) generally acquire the UK citizenship.
But they make only 2,6% of the electorate according to my quick maths. They can't influence the elections in a way that negates the vote of the population residing in Cyprus.
Here the main concern is how difficult the path to citizenship is even for people born in the Republic, even if they have one Cypriot parent. Not only they don't get to vote in the country they live in, but when they turn 18, they try to deport them in their "native countries", even though those kids have never been in those countries and don't even speak the language :evil:

Obviously, I don't know what's the case with Hungary. You do hear of countries with more citizens abroad than within its borders.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Tenebrarum » 2013-05-05, 21:23

meidei wrote:Most of them are unaware that they have to serve so they don't renounce their citizenship before they visit.

How anyone can be that stupid is beyond me. :?
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Itikar » 2013-05-06, 12:09

Levo wrote:As well as Argentinian and Uruguayian voters don't make parties to govern in Italy and Spain. :D

About Spain I cannot say, but in Italy some years ago they did, because we have a crappy electoral system where even a handful of votes in the high chamber can make the difference from forming a government or not.
However this is not due to dual citizens themselves but to the electoral system which is bad. :P
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Strigo » 2013-05-14, 11:52

Itikar wrote:
Levo wrote:As well as Argentinian and Uruguayian voters don't make parties to govern in Italy and Spain. :D

About Spain I cannot say, but in Italy some years ago they did, because we have a crappy electoral system where even a handful of votes in the high chamber can make the difference from forming a government or not.
However this is not due to dual citizens themselves but to the electoral system which is bad. :P


My dad, my sister, my brother and all of my cousins from my dad's side have Spanish citizenship (mine is a bit delayed because I didn't send the papers on time :lol: ) but well, my dad receives the envelopes for voting, for example, and he doesn't even touch them. I don't know if this is a trend but usually my family here do not vote in Spanish elections, even though they can do it.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby linguoboy » 2013-05-14, 15:05

Dual citizenship really only seems to be an issue in countries with a strong tradition of nationalism, the ideology of which doesn't tolerate any "divided loyalties". The main opponents here in the US are the same people who are generally in favour of increasing restrictions on immigration and denying rights, privileges, and benefits to undocumented immigrants already in the country.

I don't know much about the feelings of residents of Mexico on dual citizenship. As I understand it, most of the more than 30 million people of Mexican ancestry living in the USA are eligible to vote in federal elections there (a country with a population of 115 million), but registering requires travelling to Mexico so relatively few bother. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's as politicised as voter registration is here, with one party likely to gain disproportionately from greater participation, which is a clear incentive for the other party (or parties) to keep things difficult.
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby Levo » 2013-05-15, 8:50

Strigo wrote:
Itikar wrote:
Levo wrote:As well as Argentinian and Uruguayian voters don't make parties to govern in Italy and Spain. :D

About Spain I cannot say, but in Italy some years ago they did, because we have a crappy electoral system where even a handful of votes in the high chamber can make the difference from forming a government or not.
However this is not due to dual citizens themselves but to the electoral system which is bad. :P


My dad, my sister, my brother and all of my cousins from my dad's side have Spanish citizenship (mine is a bit delayed because I didn't send the papers on time :lol: ) but well, my dad receives the envelopes for voting, for example, and he doesn't even touch them. I don't know if this is a trend but usually my family here do not vote in Spanish elections, even though they can do it.


Actually I thought about you while writing some upper rows :)

Then, the Spanish system is different from the Hungarian.

In Hungary you can be a citizen and be not eligible to vote.
For example, if you don't want to pay social security to Hungary and don't have an announced job elsewhere in EU, there is only one way: you must cancel your voting rights. Still you remain a citizen.

Hungarians in Transylvania, Zakkarpatia, Slovakia, Vojvodina, etc. - those attained citizenship - could only vote at Hungarian elections if they had an official permanent place of living in Hungary.
Even I don't have an official permenant place of living in Budapest. I vote for Kecskemét local elections though I live in the capital.

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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby md0 » 2013-05-15, 15:45

For example, if you don't want to pay social security to Hungary and don't have an announced job elsewhere in EU, there is only one way: you must cancel your voting rights. Still you remain a citizen.

Fascism much? :shock:
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Re: Double Citizenship

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-15, 18:31

I find it wrong to deny voting rights like that. :roll:

Yet, I can understand it can be problematic if there is a large diaspora and many of whom still haven't given up their original citizenship. There are 6-7 million overseas Americans, but they're never really an "issue" because there are over 330 millions living in the US. So, I guess the best solution is to limit how the citizenship can be passed down to the generations born out of the country. I still think the parents should have a say since they still have some connections to the country (like family).
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