french linguistics

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katelyn3
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french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-18, 12:08

HI
Is there anyone on here that has taken french linguistics in school that could help with with some trees and other linguistic questions?
Please let me know.

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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-18, 12:12

I guess it might be a good idea to post my question.
I am learning about sous-categorisation and again I'm confused about a sentence
The sentence is

Selon le contract que les soldats ont signé il est possible que les troupes reviennent de leur mission avant la fin du conflit.

I believe 'selon le contract' is a preposition(complement du phrase)
I can't figure out what "il est possible que" is or where it goes in the arbre

and is there software somewhere to do these trees a bit nicer

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Re: french linguistics

Postby linguoboy » 2013-03-18, 14:51

katelyn3 wrote:I can't figure out what "il est possible que" is or where it goes in the arbre

It's the main clause (proposition principale). Que les soldats ont signé and que les troupes reviennent de leur mission avant la fin du conflit are both subordinate clauses (of two different types).
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Re: french linguistics

Postby Eginhard » 2013-03-18, 15:15

And you can draw trees online here: http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/

Try for example:

Code: Select all

[NP [DET a] [N tree]]
Current focus: [flag=]lt[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]bg[/flag] [flag=]hr[/flag] [flag=]ga[/flag]

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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-18, 19:40

fantastic..thank you

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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-19, 12:22

my thoughts were the same on this phrase...that "il est possible" is the main phrase.
possible I assume is an adjective?
would que les troupes....... be a complement of the main verbe then?

I am not having luck with this tree builder. Is there another site that is good?

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Re: french linguistics

Postby JackFrost » 2013-03-19, 17:43

Yes, "il est possible" is the main clause and "possible" an adjective. If we have to restructure the whole sentence to a default construction (subject, verb, object, and rest go after), it would be, "il est possible que les troupes reviennent de leur mission avant la fin du conflit selon le contact que les soldats ont signé".

would que les troupes....... be a complement of the main verbe then?

No, that's the subject of the first subordinate clause because "que" is a conjunction. I'll try to break it up for you, but take note that it's been a while since I've done this (I really wish I hadn't thrown away a lot of my notes for this lol).

Image
(Click on the image to enlarge it.)

Again, it's been a while, so I may have made some mistakes organizing the tree (I used Excel, pressed "preview" to see it without the columns and lines, copied and pasted it, and added the lines with Paint; because I have no patience to learn new codes to make a tree from a software). So, if anyone could point out the mistakes, I would appreciate it and I'm sure Katelyn would feel the same as well.

However, in advanced linguistics, the tree would be more complicated and coded differently. I'm just showing you the basic one that I learnt from French Linguistics 101. ^^;
Last edited by JackFrost on 2013-03-19, 17:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: french linguistics

Postby linguoboy » 2013-03-19, 17:48

katelyn3 wrote:my thoughts were the same on this phrase...that "il est possible" is the main phrase.
possible I assume is an adjective?
would que les troupes....... be a complement of the main verbe then?

Actually, it's the subject. Have you covered cleft sentences (phrases clivées) yet?
Last edited by linguoboy on 2013-03-19, 22:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-19, 21:57

thanks to you both...I"m not sure on the clivees. We have learned how to use a clivee to determine what is what.

as for the tree done here I have a couple of comments.
one is that the second subordinate is linking off of the Sadj "possible"...so you have confirmed that.

I do have disagreement or question about where you have put the final part of the phrase..avant la fin de la conflict. I think this should be complement of the final phrase rather than the verb as it can be removed without affecting the verb. Reviennent de leur mission has to stay together as it is a verb of movement but I think "avant la fin...." has to go up to be complement of the phrase.

Thoughts?

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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-19, 22:05

So under SV
I have V Sadj P'
Under P
SN SV SP
det n v sp prep sn
.........prep sn...det n sp
..............................prep sn

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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-19, 22:18

I think maybe we have taken cleft sentences although I didn't know they were called this.
We are being taught sous-categorisation.
I didn't know I could branch a complement off of an adjective.
So I can branch off que from the Sadj in this sentence?

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Re: french linguistics

Postby Eginhard » 2013-03-19, 23:35

@linguoboy: Do you mean that this is a cleft sentence? For me this is just a simple copular construction with il as the subject, est the predicator and possible the subject complement.

@katelyn3: Yes, you're right about the clustering of the phrases the [avant ...] phrase is an adjunct of the whole subordinate clause, while the [de leur mission] is a modifier (I'd say modifier, not complement because it's not strictly required) only of the verb phrase. In the tree it would look like this. (I don't guarantee that this is completely correct)

Image
EDIT: Fixed one little thing in the tree.

And just try out that website, it's as simple as just putting brackets around the words that go together in the tree, for example the one above was generated with this code:

Code: Select all

[S [PP [P Selon] [NP [DET le] [N' [N contract] [S' [C que] [S [NP les soldats] [VP ont signé]]]]]] [NP il] [VP [V est] [AP [A possible] [S' [C que] [S [NP les troupes] [VP [VP [V reviennent]] [PP de leur mission]] [PP avant la fin du conflit.]]]]]]
Last edited by Eginhard on 2013-03-27, 0:03, edited 3 times in total.
Current focus: [flag=]lt[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]bg[/flag] [flag=]hr[/flag] [flag=]ga[/flag]

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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-19, 23:39

I will try the site again to construct my trees but I find it confusing :*
my tree does look different than yours
actually now that I look I think I have the same response
just looks a bit different on my paper

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Re: french linguistics

Postby JackFrost » 2013-03-20, 1:10

Ah yes, I think you and Eginhard are right about splitting "de leur mission" and "avant la fin du conflict" apart. So yes, the former goes with the GV and the latter goes with GPrép linked to P2, not GV. My bad!

just looks a bit different on my paper

Are you saying you're more familiar with the tree I just made (just trying to get an idea of your course level)? Eginhard's tree is something you study in advanced linguistics courses (well, in my case).
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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-20, 1:23

I think I may be in between your two levels.
I can see and understand both trees.
Although I am using french abbreviations and the ones here are english.

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Re: french linguistics

Postby JackFrost » 2013-03-20, 1:41

Thanks for telling me. And I do use the French terms for my tree since I studied the courses in that language basically. Just a small note for you next time you need help. :)
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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-20, 12:11

oh yes you did use french Jackfrost.
We use Sn instead of GN and stuff but I understand what you are saying

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Re: french linguistics

Postby Eginhard » 2013-03-20, 14:15

Yeah, I'm sorry for any confusion that arises because I use the English abbreviations. I study linguistics through English and couldn't quickly find a website where the standard French equivalents are listed. But I'd be grateful if anybody could point me to such a list with basic French syntax terms!
Current focus: [flag=]lt[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]bg[/flag] [flag=]hr[/flag] [flag=]ga[/flag]

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Re: french linguistics

Postby linguoboy » 2013-03-20, 15:27

Eginhard wrote:@linguoboy: Do you mean that this is a cleft sentence? For me this is just a simple copular construction with il as the subject, est the predicator and possible the subject complement.

Leaving the relative clause as what, the complement of possible? Maybe I'm too influenced by English, but that doesn't work for me. Cf. Le retour des troupes de leur mission avant la fin du conflit est possible--no complement to the adjective there, the NP is just a straightforward subject.

If it's not a cleft per se, then at least I see a case of extraposition of a heavy NP with a dummy subject to fill a position which cannot be left null.
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Re: french linguistics

Postby katelyn3 » 2013-03-21, 1:45

yes, the prof says that it is a complement of the Adjective
that is what had me confused. oh well


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