Abortion

[Kenny]

I don't understand your point nor even your sentence for that matter, so please elaborate.

[Varislintu]

The soul enters the body on the 49th day of the intrauterine development, according to many traditions (Hinduism+Buddhism/South Asian/Indian, South American Native Indian...)...It is also when the pineal gland appears (which is the remnant of 3rd eye, and our link to our spiritual self)...On the same day the embryo shows us first clues about the gender/sex of the baby.

So, any abortion after the 48th day of gestation, is butchery of one soul.
If a baby is aborted, the soul will have to reincarnate afresh. One cycle wasted.

my subjective stance on abortion: pro life (I would have hated my mother aborting me )
my objective stance on abortion: banning abortion would lead to massive illegal abortion activities, with high mortality of pregnant women (as witnessed in Chile and Brazil)

I'm really glad you can separate the objectivity and subjectivity of this issue! (I don't mean that in a condescending way, if it sounds like that I apologise. It's just that many don't.)

Because I think it's really important to note the difference. If people believe in a soul/third eye stuff/personhood starting at a certain point and that being absolutely sacred, then they are absolutely free (and ideally, supported) to choose not to abort. If they do not believe in such things, or the sacredness of it, they should have the choice to abort.

It's funny, because I thought I had read so much about the abortion issue during my life that my views on it would no longer change very much. I've always been pro-choice, but had some qualms about allowing late-term abortions. But in the recent year or so, further reading and contemplation has changed my position on late-term abortion. I no longer believe there should be legal restrictions on that either.

(However, I think effort could be made by the society to take care of viable, premature infants -- that is, if the infant resulting from an interrupted pregnancy can survive outside the womb without horrible defects, then let it live -- there's no issue of bodily autonomy that legitimates killing it without effort to save it, if it's outside the womb and modern medicine can help it.)

Oh, by the way, I'm pro-choice. I don't think the typical arguments about souls and person-hood of the fetus are even relevant, to be honest.

What do you consider to be relevant?

[Marah]

If we do have a soul, how come all it takes to strip you of your personality - which if there is a soul should probably stem from it - is a lobotomy? How come that basically none of what we consider to make you the person you are is independent of your brain? Or are things like "personality" nothing more than something we are "cursed" with throughout our imprisonment on this planet? Honestly, what's the point of living forever if you're the same as everyone else? Or if personality is part of our soul why does it disappear if you push the right "buttons" in someone's brain? Yes, negatives cannot be proved or unproved but how likely does it seem that we do have a soul? It's the same thing as with God: yeah, okay, it's just as likely as Russell's teapot but that doesn't mean it's there.

In a nutshell, Occam's razor.

[Unknown]

For me I am against abortion. I strongly don't believe it's right to kill an unborn in the womb.

[RubyH]

If we do have a soul, how come all it takes to strip you of your personality - which if there is a soul should probably stem from it - is a lobotomy? How come that basically none of what we consider to make you the person you are is independent of your brain? Or are things like "personality" nothing more than something we are "cursed" with throughout our imprisonment on this planet? Honestly, what's the point of living forever if you're the same as everyone else? Or if personality is part of our soul why does it disappear if you push the right "buttons" in someone's brain? Yes, negatives cannot be proved or unproved but how likely does it seem that we do have a soul? It's the same thing as with God: yeah, okay, it's just as likely as Russell's teapot but that doesn't mean it's there.

In a nutshell, Occam's razor.

Actually Russels teapot seams to be more likely, it's just very unlikely, occams razor deffinetly leads us to find what is likely true.

[Varislintu]

Those who are against abortion being legal and a matter of choice, do you believe parents should be legally required to provide their children (if the child needs it, obviously) with organs that they can spare without outright dying? For example a kidney? If not, why not?

[Varislintu]

There was an interesting blog post at a blog I read recently, that apparently went viral in the social medias: How I lost faith in the pro-life movement.

It's an interesting description of how a USAn who used to be evangelical Christian and pro-life, changed her mind and became pro-choice (and unreligious, but that's not the topic here). She mostly makes the argument that pro-lifers in the USA focus too much on banning abortion in their goal to save embryos. Whether abortion is legal or illegal doesn't profoundly affect how many abortions happen. She states that it is hypocritical to claim to want to save lives and then not take all kinds of other measures to save and preserve life/embryos. She claims that consequently, the current American pro-life movement does not care about embryos as much as it cares about controlling women and/or ensuring that sex must have consequences.

Personally, I'm also a bit miffed sometimes about how much the abortion discussion centers around the embryo this and the baby that. What about the woman? If a woman is pregnant and doesn't want to be pregnant, then she should have the right to not be pregnant anymore. Anything else is forcing her to risk her health and provide her body for another (not even realised, but potential) person. We don't require that in any other situation I can think of (for example, parents are allowed to keep both their kidneys even if their child will die without a transplant). Having an abortion is safer than giving birth. Woman's body, her individual choice.

[ILuvEire]

I had thoughtful thoughts, the Varislintu put my ass to shame. Have you worked for a women's health advocacy group? I volunteer for Planned Parenthood which is a generic reproductive health place (they do abortions, but they also provide cheap access to things like birth control on the East Side, which is the poorest part of Austin—and incidentally, also where I live) and these are arguments I have to face on a day-to-day basis. I'm stealing your rhetoric. I'll cite you though.

[ling]

Pro-choice. You see, there's this concept called "freedom" which I believe is precious.

[Varislintu]

I had thoughtful thoughts, the Varislintu put my ass to shame. Have you worked for a women's health advocacy group? I volunteer for Planned Parenthood which is a generic reproductive health place (they do abortions, but they also provide cheap access to things like birth control on the East Side, which is the poorest part of Austin—and incidentally, also where I live) and these are arguments I have to face on a day-to-day basis. I'm stealing your rhetoric. I'll cite you though.

Heh, thanks. My opinions distill years of internet reading, though, so I doubt there's anything original in my arguments. Just stuff I've picked up along the way which I strongly agree with.

[md0]

I will agree as well. This is the main argument, or at least it should be.

And anyway, I notice that the people who want abortion to be illegal are almost always also againt birth control and sexual education in schools. They should really make up their minds. If they want less abortions, they should be supporting sex-ed (not abstinence-ed, that will never work) and easy access to birth control. But they act either naively (not talking about sex will stop it from happening) or unthinkably creepy (those who dare have sex must suffer). Seriously, they are wicked.

[Varislintu]

I will agree as well. This is the main argument, or at least it should be.

And anyway, I notice that the people who want abortion to be illegal are almost always also againt birth control and sexual education in schools. They should really make up their minds. If they want less abortions, they should be supporting sex-ed (not abstinence-ed, that will never work) and easy access to birth control. But they act either naively (not talking about sex will stop it from happening) or unthinkably creepy (those who dare have sex must suffer). Seriously, they are wicked.

Yeah, it's so contradictory. I'd like to know why people think sex should have consequences, even if we nowadays can take precautions against them. We take precautions against a plethora of hazards every day. What's so different about sex?

[md0]

Sex is a sin

[Varislintu]

Sex is a sin

Yeah. Seriously, the picture some people's beliefs paint of their religions is of a relationship more emotionally abusive than anything in 50 Shades of Grey. "You enjoy sex? Well guess what, you are bad for enjoying it, and banned from having it for any other reasons than what pleases me. Love, God."

[Lur]

Sex is a sin

Yeah. Seriously, the picture some people's beliefs paint of their religions is of a relationship more emotionally abusive than anything in 50 Shades of Grey. "You enjoy sex? Well guess what, you are bad for enjoying it, and banned from having it for any other reasons than what pleases me. Love, God."

"And if you don't blindly obey me, I'll make you suffer in Hell forever and it will be your fault. But I love you."

[Kenny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By9JJSVzlTw

[Varislintu]

Can't believe it's almost a year now since he died, that obnoxious, observant man.

(The smile is for his memory, not his death.)

[Kenny]

Yeah. I'm so sad he's not around anymore. I would have liked to meet him, if possible, sometime in the future but now that's off the table...
He is kind of my personal hero. I don't agree with him on everything, but I do agree with him on a number of important issues. And say what you will of the man, but he stood up for what he believed in and never backed down or out. He was also one of the few British people who made me like a non-American accent a bit more than an American one. (Normally, it's GA and Southern US coastal English all the way, I'm strange like that). And even just watching his videos you can sense the charm he had that everyone talked about, Ross Douthat, an American Catholic columnist, after his death, said:
"in the world of journalism, among his peers and competitors and sparring partners, it was nearly impossible to find a religious person who didn’t have a soft spot for a man who famously accused faith of poisoning absolutely everything."

I'll have to get a hold of his memoirs, Hitch-22, sometime soon. I'm just curious and based on some other works by him I've read I like his writing style quite a lot.

[/OFF]

[Varislintu]

Yeah, it would have been cool, for example, to get to see him talk at some kind of convention first hand.

[RubyH]

Well lets keep this thread inspite of it being a strawfetus.