Learning Notes - Expugnator

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-07-26, 15:35

Thank you for your help, HonneyBuzzard!! Are you quoting those doubts from my HTLAL log? =D

I'm still a bit of a beginner as for taking the Georgian Intensive Course, so I'm more likely to halt Hewitt's A Learner Grammar for the time being and start over with Aronson's first book.

Which resource is that you meant as Dunwoody?

It's indeed hard to find people to learn Georgian together. If you want, we can make this forum active again!! I really need help, it's mostly simple questions as those but as they are left unanswered things get complicated and confusing afterwards. I'd also like to hear other people's experiences.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-07-26, 22:15

You're welcome. I don't really know that site though, I just followed the link.

"Dunwoody" is what I call the Georgian-English Dictionary from Dunwoody Press. It seems too vague to call it the "Georgian-English dictionary," so I just call it Dunwoody. It's pricey, but I was ordering from them anyway and needed a dictionary. I couldn't find any reviews on it, but the reviews I found of other dictionaries seemed quite negative, so I took a chance, and I've found it very useful so far.

I don't have An Intensive Course, but I'd love to help if I can. It would be nice to see some action in here.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-07-27, 11:14

Sorry, I meant the Continuing Course. The Intensive Course would be the English edition of the Nikolaishvili's book, which I don't have (I only got the Russian one).

I think I'm gonna try out another lesson from Hewitt, let's see if we can figure out the dialogues because later on it's all about grammar reading.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-07-29, 5:04

Okay, cool. I don't know much about Hewitt's book, but good luck with it.

If you decide to try Aronson's book, I have a bunch of notes I can share. If you're a Linux user, I also wrote a program to learn vocabulary with that I can share.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-01, 19:24

Just a quick update: I'm still studying the language on a daily basis. I have to get used to collect doubts again, in the past weeks I'd just let it go when I'd come across something I didn't understand.

I'm still studying from Nikolaishvili's and from Hewitt's books, and that may last for a couple of months.

It seems HTLAL forum has been hacked yday so i'm not updating there. The only different info I posted was that I noticed Georgians call 'fresh meat' as "new meat" (ახალი ხორცი).
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-02, 19:41

HoneyBuzzard, are you familiar with the forms for the verb სინჯვა ? It seems to be the verb for 'to try' (try food, try clothes).
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-03, 19:21

I came across the word for pets/domestic animals, it's შინაური ცხოველები.

შინაური has შინ (home) in its roots.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-03, 20:45

I'm attempting to translate the first dialogue from lesson 12. Sorry for the awkward transliteration system on the book, but that's what I get from a simple copy-paste.

tarieli: ukve ori saaTia raC nards vTamaSobT, ra vKnaT? gavagrjeloT TamaSi Tu saHlSi SevideT da televizors vuquroT, Tu sHva rame gavakeToT?
irakli: daviGale da mombezrda TamaSi.
tarieli: maS eHla movisvenoT da mere gadavcqvitoT ras vizamT amaGam, Tuki deda-Seni Sin ar dagibarebs.
irakli: keTili, oGond Sen Cota Hans aK darXi marto, raki me viGaCas unda davukavSirde samezobloSi. male moval.
tarieli: me aK ratom unda davrXe? ar Seijleba meC camovide SenTan erTad? maGaziaSi unda viqido gazeTi, da TanaC Seijleba dageHmaro raimeSi gzaze.
irakli: ara, aK saHlSi uPro dameHmarebi – stumrebi male unda gvecvion (/gvestumron), da aK vinme unda daHvdes/daHvdeT maT. me Tu aK ar viKnebi, Sen unda SemouSva isini, gamoarTva paltoebi da miarTva maT qava an Xai. erTi sitqviT, kargad unda mouaro maT.
tarieli: oH, didi madloba! Tavad miHede sakuTar saKmes da me nu damajaleb imas, raC Sen unda Seasrulo!
irakli: nu Jiutob! Seijleba icvimos da droze ver movidnen. mende, ar davigvianeb. araPeri ar unda dagakldes, Tu aK darXebi.
tarieli: kai, cadi, ar gamibrazde, gTHov.

- We've been playing backgammon for two hours already, what shall we do? Should we keep on playing or should we come home and watch TV, or do something else?
- I am tired and sick (?) of playing [i didn't get what mombezrda means]
- Then let's take a short rest now and later we decide what we will do tonight, in case your mom won't be back.
- Good, but stay here alone for a little time, as I will contact someone in the neighborhood. I'll be right back.
- Why should I wait here? Can't I go along with you? I should buy a newspaper in the magazine, and also be able to help you in some way.
- No, you'll help me more by staying here at home - guests will soon visit us, and someone should meet them here. In case I'm not here, you should let them in, handle their coats and bring them coffee or tea. In short, you should take good care of them.
- Oh, thanks! They will take care of themselves, and do not force me to follow you!
- Don't be so stubborn. It might rain and they won't arrive on time. Look (?), I won't be late. You won't miss anything if you stay here.
- Fine, go, don't worry about me (?).

You see I have a point in criticizing the textbook. I can't figure out the meaning of the global text, and this is supposed to be a textbook for self-learning. All I have is the translation for 21 words alongside the text.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-04, 0:20

E}{pugnator wrote:HoneyBuzzard, are you familiar with the forms for the verb სინჯვა ? It seems to be the verb for 'to try' (try food, try clothes).


Sure, here you go:

Fut. გასინჯავს
Aor. გასინჯა
Opt. გასინჯოს
Perf. გაუსინჯავს
Plu.perf. გაესინჯა

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-04, 0:45

E}{pugnator wrote:daviGale da mombezrda TamaSi.
- I am tired and sick (?) of playing [i didn't get what mombezrda means]


(Playing) tired me/I became tired of (playing).

It's the aorist of მო(ჰ)ბეზრდება where the indirect object corresponds to the English subject.

E}{pugnator wrote:mende, ar davigvianeb.
Look (?), I won't be late.


Trust me, I won't be late.

მენდე is the aorist/imperative of Ø=ე-ნდობა trust someone with first person მ-.

E}{pugnator wrote:kai, cadi, ar gamibrazde, gTHov.
- Fine, go, don't worry about me (?).


Please don't become angry with me.

Hmm, I'm not sure about the ი. My dictionaries (Dunwoody and the vocabulary appendix in A Continuing Course) only have გა=ბრაზდება. Probably just a colloquial variation or something.

E}{pugnator wrote:You see I have a point in criticizing the textbook. I can't figure out the meaning of the global text, and this is supposed to be a textbook for self-learning. All I have is the translation for 21 words alongside the text.


Yeah, I hate it when that happens, particularly in a book that's intended for self-study. :lol:

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-04, 1:09

HoneyBuzzard wrote:Please don't become angry with me.

Hmm, I'm not sure about the ი. My dictionaries (Dunwoody and the vocabulary appendix in A Continuing Course) only have გა=ბრაზდება. Probably just a colloquial variation or something.


Oh wait, Dunwoody actually has გაუბრაზდება give a scolding, so it's probably don't scold me, please..

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-06, 18:14

at "არ გამიბრაზდე", the 'mi' is the objective preffix, so it does mean 'don't scold me'.

Thanks for all the help, HoneyBuzzard. I think it is clear now. I think I'll keep this approach of attempting to translating dialogues when I can't figure them out much from context.

1. On the Russian book I got ახალი არ იცი? for "What is new/What are the news?". Do you know if this usage is idiomatic?

2. ამბობენ, ძალიან კარგი კაციაო. I guess the -ო corresponds to the reported speech, isn't it?
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-06, 19:31

ingliseli: ukaCravad, gTHovT amiHsnaT, rogor unda gavagzavno Gia baraTi saKarTvelodan inglisSi.
KarTveli: ukve iqideT baraTebi?
ingliseli: ara, radgan ar viCi, sad iqideba baraTebi aK TbilisSi. gTHovT es uviCoba ar XamiTvaloT sisuleled!
KarTveli: ras laparakobT?! Jer viqidoT TKveni baraTebi mTavar KuXaSi nebismier cvril movaxresTan, mere me unda cagiqvanoT PostaSi.
ingliseli: gTHovT ar SescuHdeT (/nu SescuHdebiT) Xemi gulisTvis.
KarTveli: SecuHeba araPer SuaSia. KarTvelebi Hom unda daveHmaroT Xveni Kveqnis stumrebs?! Hom iCiT Xveni andaza: stumari GvTisaa?!
ingliseli: Xemi azriT, qvela modgmis kavkasielebi erTnairad eKCevian stumrebs.
KarTveli: ra eSmaki brjandebiT! KarTvelebs ukve migviHvdiT trabaHobas TKven(a)! uCHoelebma marTla ar unda daiJeroT qvelaPeri, rasaC Xven KarTvelebi geubnebiT! ai ager iqideT baraTebi, da mere PostaSi gadavideT . . . eHla KuXa gadavxraT da PostaSi viKnebiT.
ingliseli: romel rigSi davdge?
KarTveli: mand nu dadgebiT! qvelaze grjeli ro(m) ari(s), imaSi dadeKiT. Seijleba ubralod gaigzavnos TKveni baraTi, magram ukeTesi iKneba, Tu dazGveulad (= dazGveviT) gaigzavna. Jer unda aiconos mere getqvian, ramdeni unda gadaiHadoT.
ingliseli: Hom momCemen KviTars?
KarTveli: unda mogCen KviTari.
ingliseli: da Tu ar momCes?
KarTveli: auCileblad unda iXivloT Postis uProsTan.

- Excuse me, please tell me how should I send a postcard from Georgian to England.
- Have you already bought the postcards?
- No, but I don't know where to buy postcards here in Tbilisi. Please don't judge my ignorance as nonsense (???).
- What are you saying? Let's first buy your postcards at any small trader in the main street, then I will take you to the post office.
- Please don't trouble yourself because of me.
- It's no trouble at all. (We) Georgians should help the guests in our country, shouldn't we?! Don't you know the saying: Guests are from God?!
- In my opinion, every tribe of Caucasians treated guests equally.
- What the devil are you? You are already boasting at Georgians! (You) Foreigners shouldn't believe everything we tell you! Buy the cards over here, and then we'll go to the post office...Now let's cross the street and well be at the post office.
- At which queue should I stand?
- Do not stand there! It is the longest one, you'll get stuck there (???). You may just sent your postcards there, but you had better sent them registered. First you have to weigh and they will tell you how much you should pay.
- Will they give me a receipt?
- They have to give you a receipt.
- Whay if they don't?
- You should certainly appeal to the post office's manager.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-08, 9:27

E}{pugnator wrote:ingliseli: gTHovT es uviCoba ar XamiTvaloT sisuleled!
- Please don't judge my ignorance as nonsense (???).


I would probably translate it "as foolishness."

E}{pugnator wrote:KarTveli: qvelaze grjeli ro(m) ari(s), imaSi dadeKiT.
- It is the longest one, you'll get stuck there (???).


"(This) is the longest one. Stand in that one."

I've noticed that written Georgian will often lack a conjunction or full stop where I would expect one. It's probably true of spoken Georgian too, but I don't have any experience with that. When something doesn't make sense, it often helps replacing a comma with a period.

E}{pugnator wrote:1. On the Russian book I got ახალი არ იცი? for "What is new/What are the news?". Do you know if this usage is idiomatic?


No, but I have noticed that ახალი is very versatile, so I can image it can also mean news.

E}{pugnator wrote:2. ამბობენ, ძალიან კარგი კაციაო. I guess the -ო corresponds to the reported speech, isn't it?


Looks like it. "They say he is a very good man."

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-08, 15:34

HoneyBuzzard wrote:
E}{pugnator wrote:KarTveli: qvelaze grjeli ro(m) ari(s), imaSi dadeKiT.
- It is the longest one, you'll get stuck there (???).


"(This) is the longest one. Stand in that one."


Something bothered me about the რომ in that sentence. I assumed it was just a delayed "because" ("Don't stand there. Why? Because it's the longest line."), but of course as soon as I turned my computer off, I realized what it was: This is the demotion construction, i.e., the colloquial relative clause - "you (have) stood in the line that is the longest / It is the longest line that you have stood in."

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-08, 17:52

Now I understand that, too. You see the word order with რომ is not always the most natural for us, since it never takes initial position. Now with the colloquial construction, it gets even more "unnatural", but I think we can get the hang of it with some use.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-09, 13:23

How do I say in Georgian "in 2013"? Should I write 2013-ში? Like, 2013-ში მინდა საქართველოში წავიდე ?
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-09, 23:51

E}{pugnator wrote:Now I understand that, too. You see the word order with რომ is not always the most natural for us, since it never takes initial position. Now with the colloquial construction, it gets even more "unnatural", but I think we can get the hang of it with some use.


And it doesn't help that რომ already has other uses. It's also rarely used (at least in writing), so it always catches me off-guard. But yeah, hopefully we'll get used to it with practice. :)

E}{pugnator wrote:How do I say in Georgian "in 2013"? Should I write 2013-ში? Like, 2013-ში მინდა საქართველოში წავიდე ?


ში with expressions of time means "within," e.g., (from A Continuing Course) ერთ საათში თუ არ მოვრჩით, ადექი და წადი, სადაც წასასვლელი ხარ. If we won't have finished in an hour, get up and go where you have to go.

For the time when something happens, you'd use the dative, e.g., (from Aronson) ტახტზე ავიდა ათას ოთხმოცდაცხრა წელს. He ascended the throne in 1089.

EDIT: Btw, I think you do need the წელს, you can't just use a number in the dative for this function.

EDIT: Aaaand since I'm editing my post anyway, here's a fairly straight-forward sentence I just got off google: აჰმადინეჟადი 2013 წელს პოლიტიკიდან წასვლას აპირებს Ahmadinejad intends to leave politics in 2013.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-10, 21:29

It's a nice step in learning a language when you can just google for a sample sentence and understand it! =D

You quoting the Continuing Course so often, I'm wanderlusting for it?! (Can one wanderlust for a book while he's already learning the same language just from another textbook?). I still have to finish Hewitt and the whole of Aronson's first book, though, so, it will keep me motivated.

==========
paata: nodar, sad (/saiT) migaKvT eg cignebi? ratom geXKarebaT?
nodari: bodiSi, romeli brjandebiT? vaime, paata, TKvena HarT? meXKareba cignTsaCavisken, sadaC unda davabruno es cignebi HuT saaTamde. Hom ar SegijliaT dameHmaroT?
paata: rasakvirvelia. manKana mimqavs misi cliuri SemocmebisaTvis. garaZSi unda Xabardes HuTze. dabrjandiT da migiqvanT. Tu gCHelaT, PanJara unda gaaGoT.
nodari: ranairi perangi gaCviaT da ra aceria mas?
paata: ra viCi me, am perangs ra hKvia? – jmam Xamomitana sazGvargareTidan. albaT Pirmis saHeli aceria, magram sitqvebs ver vkiTHulob da, marTali ro(m) giTHraT, PeHebze mkidia, oGond uCHouri iqos — uCHouri ram mirXevnia aKaur gamoSvebas, rogorC Xven KarTvelebs gvXvevia.
nodari: Sens jmas ra XamoaKvs Holme sazGvargareTidan?
paata: spekulanti nu ggoniaT (/ar gegonoT) igi, magram qvelam Hom unda viCHovroT?!
nodari: nu geSiniaT. magas ar hKvia XarXoba – bizness uPro hgavs (Tanamedrove normebis miHedviT)! mercmuneT, ro(m) aravis (ar) gavumHel TKvens saidumlos. ar minda gamCeT pasuHi
kiTHvebze, Tu grCHveniaT.
paata: rogor gekadrebaT?! ar mrCHvenia pasuHis gaCemisa. ubralod minda vilaparako Xems Tavze da ara Xemi jmis SesaHeb. Hom gesmiT Xemi poziCia?
nodari: jalian kargad mesmis. mapatieT! sHvaTa Soris, roCa es-es aris gaaXereT manKana, uCeb ver giCaniT. eHla mivHvdi ratom. bolo dros ro(m) SevHvdiT erTmaneTs, Tu ar vCdebi, ar
gekeTaT saTvale. eHla gikeTiaT. ra moHda?
paata: iseTi araPeri. eKimma ro(m) mHedveloba gamisinJa, miTHra, ro(m) droebiT mxirdeba saTvale, roCa saxesTan vzivar.
nodari: droebiT Tu gxirdebaT, albaT aGar dagxirdebaT ram(o)denime Tvis Semdeg.
[nodars CHvirs aCeminebs/nodari aCHikvebs]
paata: siCoCHle! Tu gCivaT, PanJara daHureT.
nodari: ar mCiva, magram Tu SemCivdeba, davHurav.
paata: da nu grCHveniaT (/ar SegrCHveT). Seijleba me damavicqdes da kidev ar SegaHsenoT.
nodari: mainC Hom gaHsovT, sad mivdivarT?
paata: vaime, ra damemarTa? sad mimqavHarT? es sul ar ari(s) gza cignTsaCavisken!

- Nodar, where are you taking those books? Why are you in a hurry?
- Excuse, which one would you like? (?) Woe, Paata, is that you? I'm rushing to the library, where I should return those books until 5. Could you please help?
- Of course. I took my car to the annual inspection. I should leave it in the garage at 5. Sit down and I'll take you. (???). Open the window if you want.
- What sort of shirt do you wear and what's written on it?
- How should I know how this shirt is called? My brother brought it to me from abroad. Maybe it's the company's name that is written there, but I can't read the letters and, to tell you the truth, I don't give a damn, only that it is foreign - I prefer imported goods released here, because we georgians prefer them (?????).
- What does your brother usually bring from abroad?
- Don't take it as speculative, but where do you want to live? (???)
- Don't be afraid. It doesn't mean we're on the make - there's more to business (we follow all the norms!). (???). Trust me, everything I reveal to you is a secret. I don't mean to give answers to your questions if you're ashamed.
- Not at all! I'm not afraid of giving answers. I just want to talk about myself and not about your brother. Do you understand my position?
- I understand it very well. By the way, when the car stops, I suddenly couldn't recognize (???). Now I saw why. Last time we saw each other, if I'm not mistaken, you were not wearing glasses. Now you are. What happened?
- Nothing special. The doctor just tested my sight and told me that I temporarily would need glasses while I was driving.
- If you need it temporarily, maybe you'll no longer need it a few months later. [Nodar sneezes]
- Bless you! If you are cold, then close the window.
- I'm not on a cold, but if I get, I will.
- And don't be ashamed (????). Maybe I will forget and keep it open ????.
- Now that I remember, where are you going?
- Come on, what are you saying?( ?????) Where are you leading u?s (???) This is not the way to the library!


It's been really hard! I didn't even have the chance to read about the verbs yet.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-12, 22:37

Well, I'm certainly enjoying the book a lot. Of course you could get it and just use it as a reference. I had to buy it through an Amazon auction, haha.

This reading section is a bit tricky indeed. I didn't read all of it though, just the parts you put question marks at.

nodari: bodiSi, romeli brjandebiT?
- Excuse, which one would you like? (?)


It's probably:
"Excuse (me), who are you?"

The usual expression is "ვინ ბრძანდებით," I've never seen it with რომელი.

manKana mimqavs misi cliuri SemocmebisaTvis. dabrjandiT da migiqvanT.
I took my car to the annual inspection. Sit down and I'll take you. (???).


"I am taking my car to its annual inspection. Sit down and I'll take you there (მი-)."

მიგიყვანთ is from მიყვანს, not მიყვანს.

მანქანა is treated as an animate in Georgian. I read an explanation somewhere, but now I don't remember. Maybe it's because it moves.

uCHouri ram mirXevnia aKaur gamoSvebas, rogorC Xven KarTvelebs gvXvevia.
I prefer imported goods released here, because we georgians prefer them (?????).


"[..] as we Georgian are in the habit of."

spekulanti nu ggoniaT (/ar gegonoT) igi, magram qvelam Hom unda viCHovroT?!
- Don't take it as speculative, but where do you want to live? (???)


Hmm, I'm not sure. I can't find "სპეკულანტი" anywhere, but სპეკულაცია is "profiteering" according to Dunwoody. If that's what it is, this probably means:

"Don't think it (= what my brother does) profiteering, but we all must live (i.e., find a way to live)."

bizness uPro hgavs (Tanamedrove normebis miHedviT)!
there's more to business (we follow all the norms!). (???).


I'm not sure, but I think it's:

"it (= what my brother does) seems more like a (proper) business (according to [მიხედვით] contemporary norms)."

da nu grCHveniaT (/ar SegrCHveT). Seijleba me damavicqdes da kidev ar SegaHsenoT.
- And don't be ashamed (????). Maybe I will forget and keep it open ????.


"And don't be ashamed. Maybe I will forget and not remind you again."

Is this Paata's sentence? It looks more like Nodar talking about Paata's glasses since he only has to wear them temporarily.

paata: vaime, ra damemarTa? sad mimqavHarT?
- Come on, what are you saying?( ?????) Where are you leading u?s (???)


"Ah, what happened to me? Where am I taking you?"
or
"Ah, what (has) afflicted me (i.e., what's wrong with me)? Where am I taking you?"

He's supposed to be giving Nodar a lift, but instead he's probably driving directly to the annual inspection.


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