Questions about Korean

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Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-23, 16:10

I thought it would be handy to make a topic for the questions about Korean, I'll have some time to time and I would like to get answers to them.

What would be the best version for my name Reinder /Raɪndər/?
라인드 or maybe 라인들?
And does anybody have suggestions for my last name Staphorst /Stɑːphɔrst/?

And what's the right way to ask "What's your name?"?
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-23, 16:23

Reinder wrote:I thought it would be handy to make a topic for the questions about Korean, I'll have some time to time and I would like to get answers to them.

What would be the best version for my name Reinder /Raɪndər/?
라인드 or maybe 라인들?

Final /ər/ in most foreign borrowings is rendered -ㅓ, e.g. 슈뢰더 "Schröder", 크라이슬러 "Chrysler", etc. If you really want to preserve the /r/ sound, you need a final ㅡ because final ㄹ will simply be pronounced [l].

Reinder wrote:And does anybody have suggestions for my last name Staphorst /Stɑːphɔrst/?

I suggest adopting a Korean last name. I have a German last name, took, and it ends up being twice as many syllables in Korean, so I use my Chinese name instead.

Reinder wrote:And what's the right way to ask "What's your name?"?

It depends on the formality of the situation. A very polite way to ask would be 성함이 어떻게 되시는지요? or 성함이 어떻게 되십니까?
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-23, 16:43

linguoboy wrote:Final /ər/ in most foreign borrowings is rendered -ㅓ, e.g. 슈뢰더 "Schröder", 크라이슬러 "Chrysler", etc. If you really want to preserve the /r/ sound, you need a final ㅡ because final ㄹ will simply be pronounced [l].


But that gives a more "a-ish" sound, maybe the "e" is more pronounced like /ɨ/, if my name was German 더 might have been perfect.

linguoboy wrote:I suggest adopting a Korean last name. I have a German last name, took, and it ends up being twice as many syllables in Korean, so I use my Chinese name instead.


슽앞홀슽 isn't that long or what that sound very wrong?

linguoboy wrote:It depends on the formality of the situation. A very polite way to ask would be 성함이 어떻게 되시는지요? or 성함이 어떻게 되십니까?


"성함이 어떻게 되십니까?" would be asking someone of your own age and "성함이 어떻게 되시는지요?" to someone who is older?
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-23, 17:07

Reinder wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Final /ər/ in most foreign borrowings is rendered -ㅓ, e.g. 슈뢰더 "Schröder", 크라이슬러 "Chrysler", etc. If you really want to preserve the /r/ sound, you need a final ㅡ because final ㄹ will simply be pronounced [l].

But that gives a more "a-ish" sound, maybe the "e" is more pronounced like /ɨ/, if my name was German 더 might have been perfect.

I'm just telling you what the conventions are. If you want the closest phonetic approximation possible, I'd suggest 라인더르. (The pronunciation of ㅓ varies a bit, but it's generally mid and back--not [ɐ] and not [ɨ].)

Reinder wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I suggest adopting a Korean last name. I have a German last name, took, and it ends up being twice as many syllables in Korean, so I use my Chinese name instead.

슽앞홀슽 isn't that long or what that sound very wrong?

You would never see it transcribed that way. The conventional Korean transcription of "Horst", for instance, is "호르스트".

Reinder wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It depends on the formality of the situation. A very polite way to ask would be 성함이 어떻게 되시는지요? or 성함이 어떻게 되십니까?


"성함이 어떻게 되십니까?" would be asking someone of your own age and "성함이 어떻게 되시는지요?" to someone who is older?

No, those are both formal polite expressions. A more informal way would be "이름이 뭐예요?" And if you were talking to someone much younger than you, such as a child, you could ask "이름이 뭐야?"
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-23, 21:32

linguoboy wrote:I'm just telling you what the conventions are. If you want the closest phonetic approximation possible, I'd suggest 라인더르. (The pronunciation of ㅓ varies a bit, but it's generally mid and back--not [ɐ] and not [ɨ].)


I think 라인드 will work fine then, since the 'r' isn't pronounced very hard, I think 라인드 is pretty close and I don't want a very long name, since Korean have very short ones.

linguoboy wrote:You would never see it transcribed that way. The conventional Korean transcription of "Horst", for instance, is "호르스트".


Yeah, I understand, that's pretty hard then, I use スタプホルステ as my Japanese name, but in Korean that'd look very ugly, for my Chinese name I use 邵 which doesn't seem very easy to transliterate in Korean, too. Any suggestions?

linguoboy wrote:No, those are both formal polite expressions. A more informal way would be "이름이 뭐예요?" And if you were talking to someone much younger than you, such as a child, you could ask "이름이 뭐야?"


I thought "요" made something polite, should you use that to friends, too? Since you only use 안녕 for friends and not 안녕하세요.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-23, 22:04

Reinder wrote:I think 라인드 will work fine then, since the 'r' isn't pronounced very hard, I think 라인드 is pretty close and I don't want a very long name, since Korean have very short ones.

If you write it 라인드, then Korean speakers will think that it's monosyllabic in your native language. ㅡ is used to show that final consonants should be pronounced and not dropped or checked as Korean phonology would demand.

Reinder wrote:Yeah, I understand, that's pretty hard then, I use スタプホルステ as my Japanese name, but in Korean that'd look very ugly, for my Chinese name I use 邵 which doesn't seem very easy to transliterate in Korean, too. Any suggestions?

All Chinese characters have conventional Sino-Korean readings. 邵 is pronounced 소 in Korea and it's used as a surname there (albeit rarely).

Reinder wrote:
linguoboy wrote:No, those are both formal polite expressions. A more informal way would be "이름이 뭐예요?" And if you were talking to someone much younger than you, such as a child, you could ask "이름이 뭐야?"

I thought "요" made something polite, should you use that to friends, too? Since you only use 안녕 for friends and not 안녕하세요.

Korean respectful speech is much more complicated than that. There are seven commonly recognised speech levels. 요 characterises mainly the 해요체 or "informal polite" speech level. 되십니까 is a 합쇼체 or "formal polite" form. (In this speech level, declarative statements and interrogatives take different endings.)
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-23, 22:21

linguoboy wrote:If you write it 라인드, then Korean speakers will think that it's monosyllabic in your native language. ㅡ is used to show that final consonants should be pronounced and not dropped or checked as Korean phonology would demand.


But most of the Korean names are also monosyllabic, plus I use 來德 as my Chinese name which should be like 라인드, except for the extra ㄴ in Korean which make it sound even nicer, I think. Would it be really weird to call myself 라인드?

linguoboy wrote:All Chinese characters have conventional Sino-Korean readings. 邵 is pronounced 소 in Korea and it's used as a surname there (albeit rarely).


Is it normal to have a surname which only consists of one character in Korea.
소 라인드, it looks a little weird a surname of 1 character and a personal name of 3 characters, or isn't that weird at all?

linguoboy wrote:Korean respectful speech is much more complicated than that. There are seven commonly recognised speech levels. 요 characterises mainly the 해요체 or "informal polite" speech level. 되십니까 is a 합쇼체 or "formal polite" form. (In this speech level, declarative statements and interrogatives take different endings.)


I guess I'll learn that later on, that's too hard for now.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Pangu » 2011-06-23, 22:39

Reinder wrote:Is it normal to have a surname which only consists of one character in Korea.

Almost all Korean surnames, like their Chinese and Vietnamese counterparts, only consists of one character :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ko ... mily_names

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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-23, 22:48

Pangu wrote:Almost all Korean surnames, like their Chinese and Vietnamese counterparts, only consists of one character :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ko ... mily_names


I see, thank you very much for the link, I might be able to pick out a nice name or I'll use 시 as my last name.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-24, 1:25

Reinder wrote:But most of the Korean names are also monosyllabic

Where did you get this idea? The vast majority are bisyllabic.

But that hardly matters, because any Korean would know instantly that "라인드" is not a Korean name, it's a foreign one--and it's pronounced like the English word "rind".

Reinder wrote:plus I use 來德 as my Chinese name which should be like 라인드

No it shouldn't. Do you really not know about hanja at all?

The Korean pronunciation of 來德 is 내덕 (South) or 래덕 (North). And this sounds so Korean that there's a couple people with this name on Facebook.

Reinder wrote:소 라인드, it looks a little weird a surname of 1 character and a personal name of 3 characters, or isn't that weird at all?

라인드 isn't three characters, it's seven characters arranged into three syllabic blocks.

You might want to read an article on Korean names before going any further.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-24, 10:24

linguoboy wrote:Where did you get this idea? The vast majority are bisyllabic.

But that hardly matters, because any Korean would know instantly that "라인드" is not a Korean name, it's a foreign one--and it's pronounced like the English word "rind".


I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood that.
Okay, that's okay then, "rind" sounds really close, with the ㅡ sound after it, it should be right.

linguoboy wrote:No it shouldn't. Do you really not know about hanja at all?

The Korean pronunciation of 來德 is 내덕 (South) or 래덕 (North). And this sounds so Korean that there's a couple people with this name on Facebook.


I said I used 來德 as my Chinese name, which is pronounced like 라이드.
In Hanja it's pronounced differently, but that's the same with Kanji.

linguoboy wrote:You might want to read an article on Korean names before going any further.


Thank you very much for that link, it's really useful! =)
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Karavinka » 2011-06-24, 14:39

레인더. This is sort of my native reflex to transcribe the name.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-24, 15:47

Reinder wrote:
linguoboy wrote:The Korean pronunciation of 來德 is 내덕 (South) or 래덕 (North). And this sounds so Korean that there's a couple people with this name on Facebook.

I said I used 來德 as my Chinese name, which is pronounced like 라이드.

No, not in the Standard language. ㅡ, like Turkish ı, represents a high back unrounded vowel; the closest equivalent in Chinese is the high central unrounded vowel of 詞. The Standard Mandarin pronunciation of 德, on the other hand, is [tɤ˧˥]. And [ɤ] is the normative pronunciation ofㅓ. So when Koreans want to represent the Standard Mandarin pronunciation of this character, they write 더. (For instance, in the name of the famous Beijing restaurant 全聚德, transcribed 취엔쥐더.)

Now that we have a native speaker in the discussion, maybe she can convince you she knows more about how Korean-speakers would transcribe your name than you do. But I'm not exactly holding my breath at this point.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Karavinka » 2011-06-24, 16:35

Okay, now I checked your profile and I'll assume you want the name "Reinder" to be transcribed a la dutchie.

http://www.korean.go.kr/09_new/dic/rule ... n_0220.jsp

This is the (South Korean) normative guideline for the hangulisation of Dutch.

R-ei-n-d-er.
ㄹ-에이-ㄴ-ㄷ-어르.

레인더르.

But be assured, most South Koreans would write your name in whatever damn way that pleases them. My previous "레인더" was under assumption that it would be read as in English. "Staphorst" would become 스탑호르스트 according to the dutching rule, and "Anglicized" hangulisation would be like 스탑호스트. But if you ask me, you'll find Koreans hangulising your name variously as 스탭호스트, 스태포스트, 스태퍼스트 or whatever.


For transcribing your name from Mandarin, Mandarin -e is always transcribed as ㅓ. So, Rai-de would be simply 라이더. The rules for hangulising Mandarin is here:

http://www.korean.go.kr/09_new/dic/rule ... n_0105.jsp



-------
My advice about getting yourself a "Korean name": DON'T. Unless you plan to naturalize in South Korea for whatever damn reason. Most South Koreans, I think, would ignore and insist your "real name" or even "English name"(!!!). Based on the Roman spelling and their some knowledge of English, they would call you 레인더 for the most part, and you'll have to suck it up whether you like it or not.

Now that we have a native speaker in the discussion, maybe she can convince you she knows more about how Korean-speakers would transcribe your name than you do. But I'm not exactly holding my breath at this point.


Hmm, if I'm not misunderstood, the reference appears to be identical with Karavinka, but last time I checked, Karavinka was male. :silly:
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-24, 18:23

Karavinka wrote:My advice about getting yourself a "Korean name": DON'T. Unless you plan to naturalize in South Korea for whatever damn reason. Most South Koreans, I think, would ignore and insist your "real name" or even "English name"(!!!). Based on the Roman spelling and their some knowledge of English, they would call you 레인더 for the most part, and you'll have to suck it up whether you like it or not.

Interesting, since that hasn't been my experience at all. All the Koreans I've met are delighted to find I've taken a Korean name and use in preference to my "real name" even when they know both and even when speaking English. Perhaps attitudes are just a lot different in the diaspora?

Karavinka wrote:Hmm, if I'm not misunderstood, the reference appears to be identical with Karavinka, but last time I checked, Karavinka was male. :silly:

Damn these retrograde languages with their gendered pronouns!
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-24, 18:58

Karavinka wrote:Okay, now I checked your profile and I'll assume you want the name "Reinder" to be transcribed a la dutchie.

http://www.korean.go.kr/09_new/dic/rule ... n_0220.jsp

This is the (South Korean) normative guideline for the hangulisation of Dutch.

R-ei-n-d-er.
ㄹ-에이-ㄴ-ㄷ-어르.

레인더르.

But be assured, most South Koreans would write your name in whatever damn way that pleases them. My previous "레인더" was under assumption that it would be read as in English. "Staphorst" would become 스탑호르스트 according to the dutching rule, and "Anglicized" hangulisation would be like 스탑호스트. But if you ask me, you'll find Koreans hangulising your name variously as 스탭호스트, 스태포스트, 스태퍼스트 or whatever.


Those hangulisations look very weird for me, the last sound in my should be 드 in Asian. I guess I still prefer 라인드 as my Korean name, since it gives the closest pronunciation to me.
My last name would be very hard for Koreans, I can imagine that. ^^
Thank you very much for your help, I really appreciate it!
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-24, 19:24

Reinder wrote:Those hangulisations look very weird for me, the last sound in my should be 드 in Asian.

Please explain to my why you still think this when you have educated speakers of Korean (en Nederlands!) telling you otherwise. You said your name should be pronounced /Raɪndər/, but 드 does not sound like /dər/ "in Asian". Is it possible that you have mistranscribed it?
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-24, 23:27

linguoboy wrote:Please explain to my why you still think this when you have educated speakers of Korean (en Nederlands!) telling you otherwise. You said your name should be pronounced /Raɪndər/, but 드 does not sound like /dər/ "in Asian". Is it possible that you have mistranscribed it?


I'm so stubborn, haha.
I find it hard to explain how my name is pronounced, I guess it'd be something like Reynder in English (like in Reynolds), but the 'er' pronounced like the 'er' as in 'enter'.
Maybe this might help, they pronounce my name in Dutch (its not me, lol):
Van de 31-jarige Reinder moet eigenlijk alles extreem.
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby Reinder » 2011-06-30, 10:51

I have a question about the markers "이 / 가" and "은 / 는".
When do you use "이 / 가" and when do you use "은 / 는"?
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Re: Questions about Korean

Postby linguoboy » 2011-06-30, 14:29

Reinder wrote:I have a question about the markers "이 / 가" and "은 / 는".
When do you use "이 / 가" and when do you use "은 / 는"?

Korean is a topic-prominent language and "은/는" is the topic particle. Topicalisation is not something which can be explained in a paragraph or two; you really need to consult a good grammar with lots of examples.
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