Communism [split]

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Polonus
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Communism [split]

Postby Polonus » 2011-06-15, 21:36

Lenguas wrote:Oh, yeah, I forgot, you're old enough to remember the Cold War era. Did you have problems during the Communist era?
Olvidé que sos suficientemente viejo recordar La época de la Guerra Fría. ¿Has tendido problemas durante la época comunista?


Not really. When you are young you have problems with your excessive libido rather than politcs. :) .
It wasn't that bad in Poland. Most of us (I mean Polish society) didn't give a f... about the communist government. I think we were an exception in the funny "Communist Circus", which later resulted in Solidarity and so on. You never took seriously what the official propaganda claimed. Well, in school I was tought marxism and leninism and atheism and all this shit, but at home I would listen to the BBC and Free Europe Radio and talk freely with my parents about the real and true history of my country waiting for the USRR to collapse. And it did, (with my country's modest contribution).

Pero esto es ya agua pasada. Todo se terminó y pasó y nunca regresara. Sea como sea, es una historia muy larga y complicada y no se la puede explicar en unas frases.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-15, 21:57

Clap, clap, clap. Fabulous.
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Hunef
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Hunef » 2011-06-15, 22:46

Lenguas wrote:Oh, yeah, I forgot, you're old enough to remember the Cold War era.
You don't have to be born in the 1940's to remember the Cold War, anyone born prior to the mid 80's should remember at least something. But of course, it's probably the people born in the 40's that were most affected by it. In Sweden - being relatively small in population and free of alliance (but not neutral - notice the difference!) - one downside of it all was of course that one had to spend enormous amounts of money on the war apparatus, probably more than any other nation in the world (per capita). Here (and here for a longer version based on the same documentary) is a compiled short video on YouTube showing some of the tremendous economical sacrifices we (or my parents' and grandparents' generations) had to do during the Cold War. Remember that all weapon systems in the Swedish armed forces were developed in Sweden by Swedish private corporations, and this costed a lot.

( OK, to be honest, born in the late 1970's growing up in Sweden the only remember three things from the Cold War:

    • All the American 1980's anti-Communist action movies;
    • The alleged Soviet submarine violations along the Swedish Baltic Sea coast;
    • Reagan ("Star Wars") and Gorbachev (Glasnost) which basically ended the Cold War;
Should I feel nostalgic? I'm glad I don't remember anything from the pre-Glasnost period. :hmm: )
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-16, 0:39

I spent some time in green clothes in the woods with old weapons and stuff, in the cold war era, and it might seem odd today, but people were afraid of a nuclear war as a very real possibility back then.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Hunef » 2011-06-16, 19:42

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:I spent some time in green clothes in the woods with old weapons and stuff, in the cold war era, and it might seem odd today, but people were afraid of a nuclear war as a very real possibility back then.
Wasn't the Cold War over when you did the military service? If you're born 1971 you would've graduated from high school in June 1990 and then made your military service 1990-91. The Cold War ended in 1989.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Varislintu
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Varislintu » 2011-06-16, 20:47

Hunef wrote:The Cold War ended in 1989.


Can we really say that if people were still saying in 1995 that "Russia has too many nuclear weapons to go bankrupt", referring to the loans they kept seeking from the IMF?
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Hunef » 2011-06-16, 23:31

What do you mean, Varislintu? :hmm:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-17, 1:12

Hunef wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:I spent some time in green clothes in the woods with old weapons and stuff, in the cold war era, and it might seem odd today, but people were afraid of a nuclear war as a very real possibility back then.
Wasn't the Cold War over when you did the military service? If you're born 1971 you would've graduated from high school in June 1990 and then made your military service 1990-91. The Cold War ended in 1989.

I was exempted from compulsory military service in november 1989, as I mentioned in another thread, but in the years 1986-1989 I was in the air force youth organisation, usually using rifle model 1896 and sometimes submachinegun model 1945, and other ancient equipment.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Lada » 2011-06-17, 6:24

Polonus wrote:Well, in school I was tought marxism and leninism and atheism and all this shit, but at home I would listen to the BBC and Free Europe Radio and talk freely with my parents about the real and true history of my country waiting for the USRR to collapse. And it did, (with my country's modest contribution).

And I want back in USSR. I miss it, may be because my childhood was in Soviet times and some sweet memories are connected with that period :roll: From the child's point of view, everything was great in Soviet Days, all the cartoons and programs for children were very humanistic, they taught children only good things, there was no crime on TV, no sex, no drugs, no alcohol, no xenophobia - only the pure friendship between people of all nations. Peace and nothing more. OK, maybe all Soviet people were fooled and cheated by propaganda, but nobody was afraid to take a walk in the midnight and nothing ever happened with people. Now our life is like a nightmare. I really miss my Soviet childhood. :cry:
My parents and other people of their age also liked their life in USSR - free education - one of the best in the world, free medicine, apartments for free, but that even not the point, the main thing was that people knew what would be tomorrow, there was stability in life, today's life is much tougher, we have the strong feeling that the state doesn't give a fukc about its citizens unlike in USSR. In Soviet times you felt that you are part of something big, that the state will help you, now you are absolutely alone watching on TV endless crimes and horrors...

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-06-17, 7:43

Lada, this reminds me of Ostalgie.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Varislintu » 2011-06-17, 9:11

Hunef wrote:What do you mean, Varislintu? :hmm:


If the East (Russia) was still using its military powers to practically pressure the West into giving it loans, can we really say that the Cold War mentality/tradition had ended already? I was too young to really notice anything myself at that time, and I haven't started really reading about until lately, so I don't know, correct me if I'm reading too much into it :).
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Varislintu » 2011-06-17, 9:23

Lada wrote:free education - one of the best in the world,


But wasn't everything basically forcefully molded into a marxist subject? Like marxist biology, marxist sociology, even marxist mathematics, as far as it was possible :)?

Lada wrote:apartments for free,


Wasn't the lack of housing an appalling situation, or was that only in Estonia? I read that you had to queue for years for a small flat without any luxuries, watching "friends of right people" getting ahead in the queue all the time, you paying bribes yourself. And then once you had a flat, if you for example divorced your husband, it might be years before you got to actually separate due to the lack of housing.

Lada wrote:we have the strong feeling that the state doesn't give a fukc about its citizens unlike in USSR.


I would have to say that I don't think the tsars, communists, oligarchs or new Kreml big guys have ever cared about the citizens one bit.

Lada wrote:In Soviet times you felt that you are part of something big, that the state will help you, now you are absolutely alone watching on TV endless crimes and horrors...


Unfortunately that "big thing" was a a big exercise in self-deception and apathy-as-coping-method in my opinion.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-17, 9:33

I think the reality might have been close to a middle point between your both versions. Lada's point of view sounds pretty much like the Ostalgie Tyler mentioned, but your arguments, Mona, sound rather like specially biased reports of how inhuman communism was.

And it's not like our current democratic education is free of propaganda anyway. After all, we are taught how horrible every other government system is and how praiseworthy democracy is.

How can biology be marxist? Honest question, I'd love to know how you can marxify natural sciences.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Varislintu » 2011-06-17, 9:52

loqu wrote:I think the reality might have been close to a middle point between your both versions. Lada's point of view sounds pretty much like the Ostalgie Tyler mentioned, but your arguments, Mona, sound rather like specially biased reports of how inhuman communism was.


Yup, it's true -- so far I've only read mostly rather bitter personal stories from inside the system. Especially from the Baltic countries where the bitterness must have been hundredfold compared to Russia, since they actually had pretty advanced societies before the communistic era. In Russia, people were mostly illiterate farmers when it started, and the country was very underdeveloped in trade and industry, so in some ways there was even improvement.

loqu wrote:And it's not like our current democratic education is free of propaganda anyway. After all, we are taught how horrible every other government system is and how praiseworthy democracy is.


I don't think I was taught that :hmm:.

loqu wrote:How can biology be marxist? Honest question, I'd love to know how you can marxify natural sciences.


This was an absurd society on many levels :P. I don't have the answer, but I doubt it made any rational sense.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby BezierCurve » 2011-06-17, 10:55

That glorious era was awesome indeed. Life was easy - the Big Brother took all the responsibility for feeding, clothing and educating people. Heck, he even tried to do all the thinking for them. It wasn't that bad, sure. It was just deceitfully unreal.

When it ended up we were left with a huge debt and a society used to getting things for free, frustrated because there was nothing more to get, convinced that "I have no influence on anything whatsoever" and totally demotivated.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Varislintu » 2011-06-17, 13:20

BezierCurve wrote:When it ended up we were left with a huge debt and a society used to getting things for free, frustrated because there was nothing more to get, convinced that "I have no influence on anything whatsoever" and totally demotivated.


Interesting, I hadn't thought about the aspect of people being used to getting stuff for free. I mean, in a way that they were upset they couldn't anymore. I guess I just assumed the free stuff was so bad and unpredictable that people were not really desiring it anymore by the time the system collapsed.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-17, 14:02

I also find very interesting the sociological aspects of the dismantling of communism. I can't recall how many times I've read about the Ponzi schemes scandal in Albania in the 90's, Wikipedia says it was due to the fact that people wasn't aware of how money really worked. Having lived my whole life in a capitalistic society I find that pretty shocking.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Lenguas » 2011-06-17, 14:16

And I want back in USSR. I miss it, may be because my childhood was in Soviet times and some sweet memories are connected with that period :roll: From the child's point of view, everything was great in Soviet Days, all the cartoons and programs for children were very humanistic, they taught children only good things, there was no crime on TV, no sex, no drugs, no alcohol, no xenophobia - only the pure friendship between people of all nations.

That sounds great. Although here it is possible to minimize the evil that one watches on television. (Of course simply not watching television would work as well.) There are plenty of cartoons available on tv (I watch them in Spanish) that are completely free of bad influences. Also, shows from before the mid-1960s or so are usually good as well. Some shows from the 2000s and late 1900s especially children's shows, are alright too, but one must be careful. Avoiding the news of course goes without saying. And usually the bad shows are shown later in the evening and night. It's possible to get a synopsis of the plot to decide whether to watch it is always a good idea. I do watch some bad shows too occasionally, but not really bad ones.
But yes, tv certainly has a huge impact on people. People tend to behave like characters that they see on television. And there's a lot of peer pressure to watch bad shows.

Es muy bueno. Pero aquí también es posible minimizar el mal que se mira en la televisión. (Por supuesto simplemente nunca ver la televisión funciona también.) Hay muchos dibujos animados en la televisión (Miro en castellano) que no tiene malas influencias, Programas desde antes de circa la media de los años 1960 son también buenos. Hay programas desde el siglo XXI y tarde XX, especialmente programs por niños, son buenos también, pero se debe tener cuidado. No se debe ver las noticias por supuesto. Normalmente los programas malos son en la tarde y noche. Es posible recibir una sinopsis del programa decider ver el programa o no. Es una buena idea. Yo veo programas malos a veces, pero no muy malos programas.
Sí, ciertamente la television tiene una grande efecto en la gente. Frecuentemente la gente actua como la gente que vene en la televisión. Y hay mucha presión de los pares ver malos programas.
Last edited by Lenguas on 2011-06-17, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-06-17, 14:27

I find it easy to believe that people will give you money if you promise them a lot more money in return.
And I'm quite sure they knew how money worked. Communists had money as well.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-17, 16:03

Hey, I'm just saying what I read. Some people here also fall into Ponzi schemes (we had a scandal related to a stamp scam some years ago) but the Average Joe will doubt of it.

Communists had money too, but I think what people could do with their money was much more limited than in a capitalist system, wasn't it? Investments and so on.
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