Need help with finnish pronounciation!

[Rhyta]

Hyvä ilta !
Please someone help me with "y".. I've heard it in two different sounds.
Kiittää te

[CoBB]

Like ü in German or plain u in French.

[geoff]

There is a page in the Wiki IPA table on this sound ( "y" in IPA): [wiki]IPA: y[/wiki] And the wiki page is basically just a summary from the January Babel Babble article on this sound, which contains examples and sounds: http://home.unilang.org/babelbabble/?t=8&n=1

Question to finnish speakers: is the word "pöytä" (from the BB article) a good example of a word containing the sound "y"? In this diphtong I would pronounce the "y"-part more like an "i".

geoff

[Varislintu not logged]

"Pöytä" does have a pure Finnish y-sound. Not even in spoken language does the y shift towards i. It would sound too similar to "töitä" and "öitä" in that case .

[CoBB]

I'd still say 'tyypi' would be a better example. I don't think the /y/ in 'pöytä' is clear enough, it's too short when being tucked between the 'ö' and the 't'. Is anyone a devout phonologist here?

I know from experience that explaining the pronounciation of one's own language might not work well, because most people are unaware of little changes that might or might not be audible to foreigners. E. g. in Hungarian we have 4 different phonemes for 'k' as far as I know, but we don't differentiate between them consciously... Hmmm, hardcore stuff.

[geoff]

Hm, I guess I have always pronounced it incorrectly then. I pronounce the "y" as it should be in "löyly" (at least I think I do), but slightly differently in pöydä - though I never really thought about it before.

Kiitos,

geoff

[guest]

I don't know about Finnish, but I know one other language that has the same combination: Cantonese.

In Cantonese there is both "öy" and "oi" but not "öi". "öy" is always pronounced with "y". For example there is place in Hong Kong (höngkong) pronounced as Tsim-Sa-Tsöy.

If Finnish makes a distinction in meaning between "öy" and "öi" then you better pronounce it correctly!!!

[Liisi]

I can't hear any difference in how you pronounce the letter y in pöytä, tyyppi/typpi (there is no such word as "tyypi"), löyly or any other word containing that letter. They sound all exactly the same. I'm a native Finnish speaker, I haven't studied Finnish phonetics, this is just how I hear it... I agree with you, CoBB the Generous, it's possible this is something (advanced) students of Finnish might know better than natives.

[CoBB]

An embarrassing typo... Well, if you speak slowly enough, the y will be indeed clear even in this diphthong. In normal speech it just can't form properly, or my ears are deceiving me. On the other hand in yö I can hear the ö in its entirety; it's also harder to pronounce than öy for me, I can definitely feel I have to put more effort into it--maybe that's why the two vowels are better separated. Unfortunately I'm not advanced at all, just trying to observe myself.

[Malcolm]

I don't know finnish, but if öy is a pure diphthong and not two seperate sounds, i'd say (but it's just an innocent guess), that the y is close to the french semi-consonant you find in words like "huile", or "fuir"... I can't find the corresponding IPA symbol to copypaste here, sorry, it's like an "h" turned upside down

[Varislintu]

I can't hear any difference in how you pronounce the letter y in pöytä, tyyppi/typpi (there is no such word as "tyypi"), löyly or any other word containing that letter. They sound all exactly the same. I'm a native Finnish speaker, I haven't studied Finnish phonetics, this is just how I hear it... I agree with you, CoBB the Generous, it's possible this is something (advanced) students of Finnish might know better than natives.

Come to think of it, would you say the 'y' sounds the same in 'öljy' and 'pöytä'? When I first said them aloud a moment ago, they sounded different, but now I've said them so many times I don't know what I'm hearing anymore . Maybe the differense has only to do with the intonation or the fact that 'öljy' has a consonant before the 'ö'? Or maybe I'm completely mistaken.

Finnish does for sure make a difference between 'öy' and 'öi'. I think anyone who succeeds in pronouncing the word 'öylätti' (that little white bread you get in church) has gotten all the important points of Finnish pronounciation !

[CoBB]

I would rather say 'työselkä' has all the interesting sounds. As for the allophones, they would be easier to evaluate if you made a sound recording.

[Liisi]

(...) but now I've said them so many times I don't know what I'm hearing anymore.

I have the same problem now... and I have even lost the meaning of these words! It's funny, even your own name will sound strange if you repeat it long enough!

I would rather say 'työselkä' has all the interesting sounds.

I admit I have no idea what this word means...

[CoBB]

I admit I have no idea what this word means...

It's just a non-word to have the incriminated sounds in one place. Of course, you can use your imagination and think about how työ and selkä might go together.

[Liisi]

I admit I have no idea what this word means...

It's just a non-word to have the incriminated sounds in one place. Of course, you can use your imagination and think about how työ and selkä might go together.

Oh, ok... well, I guess it could be "työselkä" when your back is hurting from working too much !

[Varislintu]

I have the same problem now... and I have even lost the meaning of these words! It's funny, even your own name will sound strange if you repeat it long enough!

Well, I've been pronouncing them in my head for the last day, and come to the conclusion that the 'y' in 'pöytä' and 'öljy' are supposed to sound the same, but often don't because one is speaking fast and pronouncing lazily . The word 'öljy' tends to slip to the front of the mouth, making the 'y' quite narrow, while 'pöytä' stays at the back of the tounge, making the 'y' more round.

Ain't that scientific !