[Scottish Gaelic] Questions about pronunciation

[neoni]

i see what you did there

i have no idea what i was talking about in this post

[Snowshoe]

I posted this on the Scots forum but have been told it should be here. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=26566

Need help with my dog's name, please. I chose Dubhgall of Oban but the Canadian Kennel Club will not allow me to use the "of". There is already a Canadian kennel registered as Oban and using the "of" would make it appear my pup comes from that kennel, and he does not.

I have received, or found, several possiblities/suggestions but I don't know if they are all correct, how to write them, where to capitalize or how to pronounce them. Below are the suggestions I have received so far. Your comments on these are welcome. For easier writing by me I have used the intials D and O for Dubhgall and Oban after the = sign. The = sign means "translates to"

Dubhgall na Oban = D of O?

Dubhgall nan Oban = D of O? should it be na? Or nan?

Dubhgall bho Oban = D of O?

Dubhgall an t-Oban = D of O? I sort of like this best, despite fearing the CKC reaction to a hyphen when it has trouble enough with simple letters. But does this not translate directly to Dubhgall Oban and leave out the preposition all together?

Other prepositions might work too.

Dubhgall aig Oban = D at O?

Dubhgall fae Oban = D from O?

This came from a reply while on the wrong forum.

dubhgall an obain = what?

the preposition used is not a matter of which one you like best, rather it depends on the case, gender and beginning of the following word

Thanks Neoni, but now I'm more confused than ever. Did you omit the capitals on purpose? Is there a reason you spelled Oban with an "i" in it? I'm beginning to think I should have just named this dog Blackie.

My puppy-boy Oban is a black Labrador Retriever. Thanks in advance.

[nighean-neonach]

It should really be "Dubhgall an Obain". This is due to the fact that "Oban" is a masculine word, which in the nominative case takes the definite article "an t-", while in the genitive that changes to "an", plus the final consonant of the word becomes slender (pronounced sort of nasal), marked by the inserted "i".

[Snowshoe]

Thank you. I think I might actually understand that. Unfortunately I may have to sacrifice my desire for correct gaelic in order to keep Oban spelled without the "i". It needs to be Oban.

Does it make a difference if I say that, while we call the dog Oban we want the word Oban as it is written to refer to the town?

The CKC will allow me to use just the two words, Dubhgall Oban. In English, without the word "of" in between, that loses something. A person does not need to understand gaelic at all to understand that Dubhgall of Oban refers to a person from a place. Without the "of" they are just two foreign words to many people.

Perhaps gaelic is different though? Perhaps to a gaelic speaking Scot Dubhgall An t-Oban would mean a person named Dubhgall of (in, from, at) the town of Oban?

Or would it come across as Dubhgall the little bay, thus making it seem in direct translation that the bay is named Dubhgall?

Thanks. Sorry to be such a bother.

[nighean-neonach]

Sorry, I somehow don't really get your problem. If you are allowed to use 2 words only, neither "Dubhgall an Obain" nor "Dubhgall an t-Oban" will work out.
And to a Gaelic speaking person, "Dubhgall An t-Oban" wouldn't make sense at all.
I don't know anything about the intricacies of naming dogs and kennels, but why does it have to be Gaelic anyway?

[Snowshoe]

LOL, LOL, LOL. It seems English is just as confusing and complicated as Gaelic.

just the two words

My apologies, I see why you interpreted this as you did. I can use as many words as I want (with the exception of "of") as long I don't exceed 17 letters, including spaces.

And to a Gaelic speaking person, "Dubhgall An t-Oban" wouldn't make sense at all.

Thank you. That's what I thought. Gee, I must be learning something.

why does it have to be Gaelic anyway?

Isn't Dubhgall Gaelic for Dougall? The name Dubhgall and the town Oban hold immense significance for us. I will spare you the big, long story. But I just thought, since I can't use "of" in English, it might work and be in keeping with the name to use the Gaelic version of "of".

OH, oh, HECK. I just realized I only have three letters to play with. Well, that tears it. I guess I'll go with what seems kind of slangy and use "fae". Dubhgall fae Oban. Dubhgall from Oban. Sorry, I guess I have wasted your time. When I come to Scotland to visit Oban I owe you a drink. If that's where you are. Thank you anyway.

[neoni]

fae isn't a gaelic word, and you can't ignore the i. place names change form in gaelic depending on their function in a sentence.

[Johanna]

Isn't Dubhgall Gaelic for Dougall? The name Dubhgall and the town Oban hold immense significance for us.

Does it really have to be the Gaelic version of the name or will Dougall do? If the language isn't that important you could use Scots instead since the Gaelic takes up too much space. It would probably be something like Dougall o Oban or similar.

[Snowshoe]

Using Dougall instead of Dubhgall will only gain me one space.

Dubhgall (or Dougall) o Oban I just think the CKC will twig to. It's too close to the word they won't let me use.

Saying Dubhgall fae Oban I suppose would be a colloquial way of expressing the name. Not exactly proper but it seems I can't achieve that and preserve the parts I want most and satisfy the CKC.

Thanks very much though.

[neoni]

no it wouldn't be a colloquial way of saying the name. fae is scots and dubhgall is gaelic, don't mix them up.

i don't know why you're not happy with putting an i in oban.

[Johanna]

Yeah, it would really be as if I mixed Swedish and English and wrote "Jakob I of Scotland" instead of the English "James I of Scotland" or the Swedish "Jakob I av Skottland". I hope you can see how wrong that looks

If you want to use "fae" the name will have to be "Dougall fae Oban" and then it will be completely in Scots.

[Snowshoe]

Thank you both for being so persistant. I really do appreciate your taking this time to educate me as to the differences. My Scottish ancestors would be pleased, I hope.

Going all Gaelic, Dubhgall an Obain, still fits my space allotment. I've been told the "i" imparts a slight nasal quality to the sound but it still basically sounds like Oban?

So does going all Scots, Dougall fae Oban. Fit I mean.

I have a bit of time yet before I have to make a change. If I don't make a change here is what the CKC have proposed: Dubhagall of Aban. They just arbitrarily and without consulting me or the breeder put in a letter "a" and replaced the O.

[eurabol]

The A's are clearly nonsense. The name of the town in either language requires an O.

Do as neoni and Johanna suggest and choose between all-Gaelic (with the 'i' - the pronunciation isn't vastly different) or all Scots (incl. Dougal/Dougall) .

One more option would have been:

Dubhgall às an Oban. (D. from Oban.)

but too many letters if you have to count the spaces.

Or just call him

an t-Obanach = the one from Oban, the 'Obanese' or 'Obanian'. (This is also the Gaelic name of the local newspaper, The Oban Times, but doesn't in itself mean a newspaper - c.f. the Scotsman= An t-Albannach - paper or person.)

or even Dubhgall Obanach... Oban Dougal.

[Gaelg]

While learning the Gaelic pronounciation I noticed that sometimes obh is an ov and sometimes an ow like in An robh. Why is this?

How do I know when it is ow or ov.

and another pronounciation issue I have is whith >Dèanamh < How do you pronounce this? I heard a women from Skye say "Janoo"

All help appreciated thanks

[nighean-neonach]

When I say "an robh", the "bh" is almost silent. I think that's what it does in word-final position. In word-initial position it is [v]. In the middle of a word, it depends... that's a matter of dialect as well: for example, some people pronounce "labhairt" with two syllables and "bh" as [v], others have a sort of [h] sound or a glottal stop in there, and some just say the word with one loooong dark "a" (mono-syllabic).

The ending "-amh" like in "dèanamh" can either be pronounced as [av] (it's rather schwa than "a"), or [u], depending on dialect / speaker preference. I usually say it with [av], but if I hang about too much with people who say it like [u], I'll start doing that as well.

[Eoghan]

When I say "an robh", the "bh" is almost silent. I think that's what it does in word-final position. In word-initial position it is [v]. In the middle of a word, it depends... that's a matter of dialect as well: for example, some people pronounce "labhairt" with two syllables and "bh" as [v], others have a sort of [h] sound or a glottal stop in there, and some just say the word with one loooong dark "a" (mono-syllabic).

The ending "-amh" like in "dèanamh" can either be pronounced as [av] (it's rather schwa than "a"), or [u], depending on dialect / speaker preference. I usually say it with [av], but if I hang about too much with people who say it like [u], I'll start doing that as well.

Yeah, I think I'd say something in between "jee-ah-nev" and "jee-ah-noo", but many of my friends say jeeahnoo.... Sorry, I'm simply too lazy to do IPA, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say... In words such as "obh mo ..." I'd say ouw mo, with an almost silent v sound.

[neoni]

just take a guess, there's probably a dialect that does the one you'll choose, and if not somebody will point it out

[setsdw]

I need some help trying to pronounce this phrase

Cuimhnich air na daoine o'n d'thaining

Can anyone spell it phonetically in English?

[Alasdair]

It sounds sort of like:

Coi-nyich air nah doo-nyih on danick

[Sean of the Dead]

I was recently thinking about Scottish Gaelic's lack of voiced stops (instead, aspirated-unaspirated pairs), and that it has pre-aspiration. The interesting thing is that neither Manx nor Irish have it, and I don't think that Old Irish did either.

I know that Norn, a Western Scandinavian language, was spoken in Scotland for quite awhile, before it's extinction. Two of the current 3 Western Scandinavian languages, Faeroese and Icelandic (but not Norwegian, which has been greatly "simplified" in the last millennium), both have aspirated-unaspirated voiceless plosive pairs, and both have plenty of pre-aspiration.

Could Scottish Gaelic's voiceless-only plosives and pre-aspiration be because of Western Scandinavian influence, or pure coincidence? Please give thoughtful answers, not just "yes" or "no". Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!