Draven wrote:[l] is completely replaced by [n] and [ɲ]
Can you give me examples of dialects replacing [l] by [ɲ] ? Somehow I think it's the other way around and too old-fashioned to be notable.
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:I thought a shift was a complete change, where the older was totally displaced?
Sure. In Northern regions affected by the shift people are now incapable of pronouncing [l] even if the letter L is written down right in front of their eyes. [..]There is also the amazing northern phenomenon that people are perfectly familiar with both [l] and [n], but the two consonants switch places - when they see L they say [n], yet when they see N they say [l]. "Nực nượng lòng cốt"
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It's... not much like a shift. The former was limited in some Eastern North provinces only, and they are all next to each other. It could be the unfamiliarity of [l] led by the inability to produce it of their ancestors. They lived in a totally non-[l] environment and could have perceived the sound as a strange, imported thing. Even when they didn't, their incentives to change were not strong enough as they would hardly ever leave the village and everyone around spoke just like them.
The latter I have no idea... I've never met a whole village switching [l] for [n].
But calling it a shift means you have a presumption that they did pronounce [l] before. I find it hard to understand why they omitted [l] and all of a sudden switched it for an already existed sound. Just... lost
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:Like would you say "công việc nhỡ nhàng" or "công việc lỡ làng" ?
To southerners [l], [n] and [ɲ] stay right where they are. There's no mixing up or alteration. So it's lỡ, never nhỡ. Anyway, what we'd say is dở dang, not lỡ làng. We only have lỡ, which is equivalent to trót in the north I think.
No... dở dang means you've left something half-done, while lỡ làng means you've missed the chance/opportunity to do something. Like cuộc đời dở dang vs. cuộc đời lỡ làng. One means you're dead, one means you're about 50 yrs old and don't have anything.
I asked because I notice some difference in meaning between nhỡ nhàng and lỡ làng. Lỡ làng has something to do with being late in marriage.
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:The spoken language at that time doesn't differ much with what it is now and there was not yet a Southern part to have its own creations.
That's a pretty bold statement isn't it? When Saigon was founded the two kingdoms had been separated for almost 200 years with limited cultural exchange. And how can you be certain that the split started with the Đàng Trong - Đàng Ngòai schism? It could have started even prior to that you know (with Huế and Quảng Nam already contrasting with Hanoi).
The nh thing is very old-dated here yet being kept intact down there. I just say that maybe the first Northerners went down South expanding lands brought with them their old ways of pronunciation. Due to limited exchange, there were more chances that these old ways were kept safe against the innovations up North. For example, differences in pronouncing r.
Unless provided with documents, it's impossible to know where a word originated. It could be an own creation or cultural retained. Either way, I don't think it's a matter of regional pride.
Imbecilica wrote:Also, is there an equivalent to cô ấy? Since I don't know, it seems strange as most of the others are paired up.
Chú ấy. But it's also well paired with anh ấy.