Persian dialects

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arsham
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Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-09, 19:08

In Nahaavandi:
mo-yem=miguyam
mo-yi=miguyi
mo-ya=miguyad
mo-yim=miguyim
mo-yit=miguyid
mo-yan=miguyand, in general mi- --> me-

merem=miravam
meri=miravi
mera=miravad
merim=miravim
merit=miravid
meran=miravand

There's also a passive past participle in -essa e.g. deressa (paare shode, az daridan), boressa (boride shodeh) etc.

past tenses:
reftem, refti, refta, reftim, reftit, reftan; mereftem etc
refta biyem, refta biyi, refta biya, refta biyim, refta biyit, refta biyan

Few words:
ivaara = 'asr (Middle Persian ebaar, classical Persian ivaar)
laar=tan
kelek=angosht
giya=shekam (kurdish loanword)
pet=bini
merk=aarenj
zo=zabaan
do=dahaan
mera/shuar= showhar (Middle Persian merag and shoy)
guspan=gusfand
baayem=baadaam
naali=doshak (classical Persian nahaalin/nahaali perhaps related to naalen in deraxte asurik)
gerdako=gerdu(cf. gerdakaani in Classical Persian)
beva=baabaa
etc..
miborram=movorrem; mibaram=marrem;
m-allem (contraction of me-hilem az heshtan)=migozaaram but in past tenses niyem (contraction of nahaadam); var-isam (contraction of bar istam)=boland mishavam;

arsham
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-09, 23:54

Sabzevaari:
pinak=pishani
post=1-pust 2-post
rez rez bako = riz riz bokon

alijsh
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby alijsh » 2009-02-10, 5:19

Thanks Arsham. Please write about verb structure and conjugation as much as you can. It's my favorite section in the study of languages and dialects. I'll also write about the dialect of indigenous (asil) Tehrani and Karaji people, which is my paternal and maternal dialect.

arsham
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-12, 0:51

alijsh wrote:Thanks Arsham. Please write about verb structure and conjugation as much as you can. It's my favorite section in the study of languages and dialects. I'll also write about the dialect of indigenous (asil) Tehrani and Karaji people, which is my paternal and maternal dialect.


You're welcome!
I thought the Old Tehraani/raazi(ray) dialect is extinct, although I've been told in Damaavand the indigenous dialect is still alive. Tehraani is part of the central iranian dialects and is intimately related to northern Ispahan dialects like those of Kashan and Farahan, isn't it?!

Here's more on verbs:

In Nahāvandi, šodan is almost never used or should I say I have never heared my grand-mother use it, unless she wanted to sound like Tehrānis. As in Middle Persian, bīyan(=būdan) means both būdan and šodan. Thus cī bīya may mean cī šode or cī būde depending on the context. This degeneracy is removed in the present tenses as the contracted forms of the defective verb h- are used to convey the meaning of "to be" and a mixture of optative and subjunctive stems are used to impart the sense of šodan

mām (contraction of mēbavām) mišavam
māšī (contraction of mēbāši) mišavi
mā (contraction of mēbavād) mišavad
māšī
māšīt
māšan

and

bām (contraction of bavām or bebavām ) beshavam
bāšī

bāšīm etc.

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby alijsh » 2009-02-12, 6:17

arsham wrote:I thought the Old Tehraani/raazi(ray) dialect is extinct

I don't know if it is the same dialect. I have heard it in Punak (NW of Tehran) and also in Shemirân. The dialects of Tehrân and Karaj will be extinct or quasi-extinct in a few more generations. For example, I can only understand it. My child won't know it because neither I know it nor my father would speak in it. He may only speak in it when he is among his old friends. But there are people form my generation who can speak it. So, it would pass to the next generation anyway. The situation is better in Karaj. There are many more speakers. And there are many sub-dialects. Not every village speak the same dialect as another village. Now that we have moved to Karaj, I'm trying to collect information about the grammar but people are not so helpful. Apart from saying "çe be dard mixore" (e.g. like my father), they can't answer simple grammatical questions like conjugating a verb in a given tense. I have to make sentences for different grammatical persons and ask them to say it in their dialect and then I can find the conjugation I want. They are usually confused and get tired soon. I must see if any book has been written about these dialects.

arsham wrote:I've been told in Damaavand the indigenous dialect is still alive

Yes it is alive and stable. It is like northern languages as far as I have heard it. An ordinary Persian speaker can't understand much of it. It is different from Tehrâni and Karaji dialects.

Tehraani is part of the central iranian dialects and is intimately related to northern Ispahan dialects like those of Kashan and Farahan, isn't it?!

I remember my father's aunt said that they have migrated from Esfahan to this region. I don't know when and I had never believed it but now that you are saying it belongs to central dialects, that story makes sense. I don't know anything about Kashan and Farahan dialects but our dialects have also similarities with northern dialects.

Some example form my paternal dialect (I'm writing in my own Latin scheme):

xocir: xub
leng: pâ
bâl: ketf (agar eştebâh nakonam)
dim: surat
gate: bozorg
espi: sefid
ise: hâlâ, aknun
dâmesag: çand lahze piş
dâr: deraxt
ew: âb
xonak ew: âbxonak
Hoseyn i pesar: pesar e Hoseyn
barâr: barâdar
xuâr (xwâr): xâhar
çulu: toxm e morğ (dar barx i zirguyeşhâ be câ ye in miguyand «morğâne», hamânand e Şomâlihâ)

I have not deciphered the conjugation yet (the hardest part):

hâdâm: dâdam
hâdi man: bede be man
denabâ: nabud (dar câ yi; dar budan: dar nabud)
daniya: nist (dar câ yi; dar budan: dar nist)
bowtam: goftam
nowtam: nagoftam
hâgit: gereft
bagit: gereft («hâgit» o «bagit» kârbord eşân farq mikonad va hammaønâ nistand)
baket: oftâd
bakeva: beyoftad
dabest: baste
dabest bâ: baste bud
dabestâya: basteast
barijan: berizand

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-12, 16:20

I don't know to what extent you're familiar with the tense system of Middle Persian, but that might be helpful not because the central dialects are related to MP but rather because the majority of them seem to have conserved an important feature of Middle Iranian and even New Iranian languages which is lost in New Pers. And that's ergative construction in the past tenses. In MP, the transitive verbs agreed with the direct object or more accurately with the patient while the agent was introduced using an oblique case or an enclitic, since these past tenses were reminiscent of passive constructions of Old Pers. with the genitive being used to introduce the agent (e.g. iyam manaa kartam (astiy) that is "this is done by (of) me" = I (have done) did this ---> MP en man kard ). MP lost its case system very soon, so as I mentioned the ergative character of the past tenses are displayed only in the agreement of the verb with the patient (the grammatical subject) rather than the agent (the logical subject) other examples

to man did esteh I have seen you
but man to did estem you've seen me

In the perside (south western) dialects these constructions are conserved in the remaining MP dialects spoken in the Kazerun-Fasaa-Shiraz triangle, in Kerman (based on what I've been told) and in Northern Fars dialects like davaani and also in Laari. In Laari as in Northen Ispahani dialects, the agent is always introduced via enclitics, e.g.

o-m did (didam) MP man did or man did hend if the patient is pl. as in aweshaan mardaan man did hend (aan mardaan raa didam)
o-t did (didi), o-sh did etc.

I think this is also the case in your dialect. I have noticed the oblique case marker -i in Hoseyni pesar, I guess in the present tense you use -i to mark the direct object and in the past tenses you use it to mark the agent(the logical subject)

Can you send sentences?

Also kaf- is Parthian for Persian oft- (fall) and is used in all central dialects
in dezfuli gap=bozorg!
Also the conservation of Old Iranian -c/j as j/zh (which becomes -z in the south) is typical.
Do you have az for I along side man as in northern Ispahani?

My guess for the conjugations

transitive perfect tenses (perfect and pluperfect) past participle (+prefix) + present/past budan in 3 person so either (aaya/aayan or baa/baan) with ergative agreement (so the enclitics must be added somewhere, which is why it's crucial to have an actual sentence!)

few similarities with Nahaavandi
xuaar, braar (not baraar), ew, isew,

arsham
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-12, 16:58

Further guesses:

haa-/ha- and de/da- are prefixes not part of the conjugation
be/ba- is used to form preterit, present subjunctive and imperative but it's dropped when the verb has a prefix

In Parthian the present stem of kardan is kar- not kon- (as in MP and NP), do you use kar- as well?
bakaran=bokonand
the Parthian equivalent of MP gov- (NP gu-) is vaazh-, do you use that?
Parthian has also a postposition in the shape of parvaan (If I recall correctly) which is equivalent to pesh in MP (jolow and pish in NP), do you use that?

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby alijsh » 2009-02-12, 17:19

Thanks Arsham. I know about verbal system of middle Persian. I assure you that these dialects don't have ergative. They have full six conjugations like standard Persian:

I have seen you - bēdiyamet

in dezfuli gap=bozorg!

Here they don't have "harf", "harf zadan", ... They use "gap": gicgici gap nazan: çert o pert nagu, harf e çert nazan. As you know, "gap" is also found in standard Persian but its meaning is different (like "chat").

Do you have az for I along side man as in northern Ispahani?

No. They don't have "az", as far as I have seen.

few similarities with Nahaavandi
xuaar, braar (not baraar), ew, isew,

I think ew, aftew, xew, şew, gew, etc. are common among most dialects. Also b(a/e)râr and xuâr.

arsham wrote:In Nahāvandi, šodan is almost never used or should I say I have never heared my grand-mother use it, unless she wanted to sound like Tehrānis. As in Middle Persian, bīyan(=būdan) means both būdan and šodan. Thus cī bīya may mean cī šode or cī būde depending on the context.

Here şodan (bēşiyan) means "to go" and for the sense of "to become" they use gardidan (gadiyan).

çi gadi? : çi şod?
çi gadiya? : çi şode?

çi bâ? : çi bud?
çi biya? : çi bude?

xafe gad: xafe şow
bolan gad: boland şow

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-14, 0:48

I think as you mentioned your dialect is more related to northern dialects, I'll try to gather some information on maazeruni, tabari and gilaki, I am not familiar with these languages at all! :mrgreen:

More on Nahaavandi

gorda=kul
xoftiyan=xvaabidan; xoftiyem=xvaabidam; baxoftem=bexvaabam;me/moxoftem=mixvaabam
chorriyan=shaashidan
chorka=shaash
gal= nemidaanam daqiqan che ma'niyi midahad, vali dar baareye kasi ke xeili edraarash gerefte miguyand "galesh shekessa", agar ham kasi baa leng baaz yaa xeili velow neshaste baashad miguyand "galeta jam ko" ya'ni dorost beneshin!

zo ve do beyr = zabaan be dahaan begir=xafe show

a heleylew ban mekona ve beleylew = chert o pert sar e ham mikonad, charand miguyad

xarvaaza= xarbuze
aalat=zardchube
ew-gardo=(aabgardaan)qaablameyi ke tanhaa yek dasteye boland daarad
paalaa=kafsh
piyaala=kaase(aashxori)
nish=nush; nishe jonet=nushe jaanet
pil=pul
xin=xun
ri=ru; cheqa ri daari = cheqadr ru daari
jaama=pirhan
laata=daqiqan nemidaanam ya'ni che vali laatata bal=begir bekap, kapeye margeto bezaar
kaamin=kodaam; kaamina mexaay?
dumbaazi=chaaplusi,tamalloq

arsham
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-14, 1:19

After having read this (the section on Gilaki)
http://www.persianacademy.ir/UserFiles/ ... yesh02.pdf

I think some of my early guesses were right:

present subjunctive: be/ba + present stem + ending; be- is dropped if the verb has a prefix (e.g. haa, da etc) or a nominal part (e.g. bolan);

present imperative: same as Pres. Subj. but with no ending for the 2nd person sg

present indicative: present stem + ending or hi-/i- + present stem + ending

preterit: be/ba + past stem +ending, be- is dropped if the verb has a prefix

can you confirm any of this?

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby a.akbari » 2009-02-14, 10:43

dorud,
arsham: paalaa=kafsh

Lâmerdi: Pâlâ pasvand e pâludan. Âŝpâlâ = zarf i barây e âbkeŝ-kardan e polw. Âŝ dar in kârbord bâyad ayŝ (dar mohâvere âŝ) e arabi be maåni ye polw bâŝad.
arsham: gorda=kul

Lâmerdi: Gordha = kul, va poŝt (sotun e faqarât). Gordhaku = kolye (ku neŝân e kuceki)
arsham: gal= nemidaanam daqiqan che ma'niyi midahad, vali dar baareye kasi ke xeili edraarash gerefte miguyand "galesh shekessa", agar ham kasi baa leng baaz yaa xeili velow neshaste baashad miguyand "galeta jam ko" ya'ni dorost beneshin!

Lâmerdi: Gal = keŝâle va miyân e do pâ. "Gal et pah nâ na kon (pahn vâ na kon)"= Don't open your crotch.
Gal = gale dar tarkib; mesl e gâgal = gale ye gâv (faqat dar hamin tarkib). Rah e gâgali = râh e pahn i dar daŝt ke az miyân e keŝtzâr mi gozarad va masir e âmad o ŝod e gale ast (cattle highway).
Gal e kas i oftâdhan = harâh e kas i yâ goruhi ŝodan (biŝtar dar maåni ye manfi) = hunted by a gang.
arsham: piyaala=kaase(aashxori)
Lâmerdi: Zarf e âbxori ye bozorg va kam omq mesl e boŝĝâb az jens e berenj yâ varŝw. (a cap-like shallow bowl with a big radius). Be ân jumi (jâmi) ham mi guyand.
Arsham: laata=daqiqan nemidaanam ya'ni che vali laatata bal=begir bekap, kapeye margeto bezaar

Lâmerdi: Lâta = sinepahlu (pneumonia) (never used as a curse.)

pedrud.

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby a.akbari » 2009-02-14, 10:58

dorud,
The situation is better in Karaj. There are many more speakers. And there are many sub-dialects. Not every village speak the same dialect as another village. Now that we have moved to Karaj, I'm trying to collect information about the grammar but people are not so helpful.
Radïo Alborz (stationed in Karaj) has regular sessions in Karaji dialect. Why don't you contact them for resources?
alijsh: I think ew, aftew, xew, şew, gew, etc. are common among most dialects.

Lâmerdi: Ow, aftow, ŝow, deŝow (ŝire ye xorma va angur) ammâ, gâ
alijsh: çi gadi? : çi şod? çi gadiya? : çi şode? çi bâ? : çi bud? çi biya? : çi bude?

Lâmedi: Ce tâ vidh (e)? Ce vâvidh (e)? Ce bidh (e)?
alijsh: xafe gad: xafe şow
Lâmerdi: xafa bi(dh)! xafa vâ va, xafa vâ na vi, xafa vâ vidh.
alijsh: bolan gad: boland şow

Lâmerdi: boland â va /pâ va = vaxi ye Efahânihâ/pâ ŝw

pedrud.

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby a.akbari » 2009-02-14, 11:28

dorud,
Alijsh: gate: bozorg
arsham: Also kaf- is Parthian for Persian oft- (fall) and is used in all central dialects
in dezfuli gap=bozorg!
Alijsh: Here they don't have "harf", "harf zadan", ... They use "gap": gicgici gap nazan: çert o pert nagu, harf e çert nazan. As you know, "gap" is also found in standard Persian but its meaning is different (like "chat").

Lamerdi: got = bozorg (fiziki) sang e got i = sang e bozorg i.
Gap = bozorg (maånavi). Âdham e gaptar = ŝaxs e bozorgtar.
Gap = harf, goftogu, bahs. "To gap be dhan" = to be gu. "Gap e ŝow" = qessehâ ye ŝab.
Gap be maåni "chat" barây e avvalin bâr man estefâde karde am. Agar kas e digar i zutar az man be kâr borde man dar jeryân nistam. Hamin twr "peyju" barây e "pager". Dar Lâmerdi peyju yaåni saxs e peygard va konjkâv.
Pedrud.

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby a.akbari » 2009-02-14, 11:54

Dorud,

arsham: in Northern Fars dialects like davaani and also in Laari.
Davân (mahalli dâvun) az tavâbeå e Kâzerun ast. Pas dar jonub e bâxtari ye Fars ast, va na dar ŝoâl e ân. Lâr dar noqte ye moqâbl e ân (nesbat be markaz e ostân – Ŝirâz) dar jonub e xâvari ye Fars ast.

arsham: o-m did (didam) MP man did or man did hend if the patient is pl. as in aweshaan mardaan man did hend (aan mardaan raa didam)
o-t did (didi), o-sh did etc.
In Lâmerdi:
om didh emun didh => didh om didh emun
ot didh etun didh => didh et didh etun
Eŝ didh eŝun didh => didh eŝ didh eŝun
Ammâ,
didhom (didam) didhim (didim)
didhi (didi) didhid (didid)
didh (did) didhen (didand)

Pedrud.

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby alijsh » 2009-02-14, 17:27

a.akbari wrote:Lâmerdi: Gal = keŝâle va miyân e do pâ. "Gal et pah nâ na kon (pahn vâ na kon)"= Don't open your crotch.
Gal = gale dar tarkib; mesl e gâgal = gale ye gâv (faqat dar hamin tarkib). Rah e gâgali = râh e pahn i dar daŝt ke az miyân e keŝtzâr mi gozarad va masir e âmad o ŝod e gale ast (cattle highway).
Gal e kas i oftâdhan = harâh e kas i yâ goruhi ŝodan (biŝtar dar maåni ye manfi) = hunted by a gang.

Dast etân dard nakonad. In «gâgal» ke goftid xeyl i câleb bud. Dar guyeşhâ ye mâ be çupân miguyand «gewgalbân» ke hamân towr ke hatman hads zade id, taşkil şode az «gewgal» va pasvand e «bân» ke kârbord aş râ midânid (darbân, pârkbân, ...). Pas «gewgal» mişavad «galle ye gâv». Mamnun.

Dar mowred e «gal», incâ maøni ye «galu, gardan» midahad: «be gal o guş e kas i dast keşidan» (biştar nowø i l*s zadan râ miresânad). Fekr mikonam maøni ye «konc» o mânad ân ham midahad.

a.akbari wrote:Lâmerdi: boland â va /pâ va = vaxi ye Efahânihâ/pâ ŝw

Incâ barâ ye «boland şow, sarpâ beist», «pâyast» ham miguyand. Fekr mikonam moøâdel «baxi» (-> ¿barxiz?) bâşad.

a.akbari wrote:Âdham e gaptar = ŝaxs e bozorgtar.

Barâye in mâ «gat» miguyim: gattar.

a.akbari wrote:Gap be maåni "chat" barây e avvalin bâr man estefâde karde am. Agar kas e digar i zutar az man be kâr borde man dar jeryân nistam.

Dar Fârsi ye xwod emân dar Tehrân hast: gap zadan. «gap o goft» râ ham hatman az rasânehâ şenide id.

a.akbari wrote:Hamin twr "peyju" barây e "pager". Dar Lâmerdi peyju yaåni saxs e peygard va konjkâv.

«peycu» ham dar Fârsi ye xowd emân hast: peycu şodan, peycuyi kardan. Barâ ye «pager» be nazar am barâbar e xub i nist. Barâ ye «page kardan» xub ast ammâ barâ ye «pager» fekr mikonam «farâxwân, xabarkon» yâ çizi dar in mâyehâ behtar bâşad.

a.akbari wrote:
arsham wrote:piyaala=kaase(aashxori)

Lâmerdi: Zarf e âbxori ye bozorg va kam omq mesl e boŝĝâb az jens e berenj yâ varŝw. (a cap-like shallow bowl with a big radius). Be ân jumi (jâmi) ham mi guyand.

Dar Fârsi ye Tehrân be zarf e mâstxwori miguyand piyâle.

Lâmerdi: Gordha = kul, va poŝt (sotun e faqarât). Gordhaku = kolye (ku neŝân e kuceki)

Mâdarbozrg am be kas i ke lâğar bud be kenâye migoft «hastekul». In vâje bâyad morakkab bâşad ammâ nemidânam az çe. Şomâ çonin vâje yi dârid? Şâyad tarkibbandi yaş mânand e «hastexormâ» :lol: bâşad :wink:

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby alijsh » 2009-02-14, 17:37

arsham wrote:chorka=shaash

Incâ migan «çor». Nemidunam çeqad Tehrânişode hast ammâ be şuxi be man migoftan: «çâyi't'e baxor, çor eş'e dakon»: çâyit'o boxor, şâş eş'o darkon. Avvalin bâr ke be hem goftan, koll i xandidam.

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Re: Persian dialects

Postby a.akbari » 2009-02-15, 7:12

Dorud,
alijsh: Dar Fârsi ye xwod emân dar Tehrân hast: gap zadan. «gap o goft» râ ham hatman az rasânehâ şenide id.
«peycu» ham dar Fârsi ye xowd emân hast: peycu şodan, peycuyi kardan.
Bále, xeyl i az in mavâred dar Fârsi ye meåyâr ham vojud dârad, va li yâdâvar i ye ânhâ be cand dalil mofid ast:
1) Ravâj va kârbari ye biŝtar ânhâ dar zabân, [masalan gapidan = sohbat kardan, chat kardan],
2) In ke zabân hampuŝâ'st va marz e boreŝi ye daqiq i na darad. Ân ce dar Nahâvand gofte mi ŝavad dar karânehâ ye Xalij e Fârs ham momken ast ŝanide ŝavad.
3) Barassihâ ye zabânŝenâsi râ tahrik karde bâŝim. Nemune ye xub e in gozâre xâg = toxm e morĝ ast ke az xâya dar Kordi (Maku, va ŝâyad bâlâtar) ŝoruå mi ŝavad va be xâg (Mokrân) mi rasad. Dar zabân e meåyâr mâ faqat xâgine dârim. Xorâk dar Fârs e jonubi yaåni ĝazâ. Dar F/M xorâk mahdud mi ŝavad be ĝazâ ye bi berenj. Xâna dar jonub barâbar e otaq ast na sarâ. Sarâ dar F/M bâyad be jây tarkib badrixt e Mojtamaå (e maskuni) gerefte ŝavad va xâne be jây e otâq. Âpatemân ham mi ŝavad mân, yaåni be tartib, sarâ=> mân => xâne. Dar zabân e Xorâsâni milân kucektar az xiyâbân va bozorgtar az kuce ast; pas darim: bozorgrâh (bozorgbân)=> xiyâbân => milân =>kuy=> kuce. Ŝahrdâr emân ham ke Maŝhadi'st. cerâ az in vâže ye zibâ va kârâmad estefade ne mi konim, mo ke heyrun me ram.
3) Lâmerdi guyeŝ i az Fârsi'st va na zabân, dar hâl i ke hamsâye ye ân Lâri be zabân biŝtar nazdik ast tâ guyeŝ.
4) Fârsi gar ce dar xorâsân be bâlandegi raside, va li neŝânehâ ye Pahlavi ye jonubi dar ân farâvân ast. besyâri az vâžhâ ye mahjur dar Fârsi ye Emruzin dar guyeŝhâ ye mahalli faåal ast, va dar neveŝtehâ ye kohan niz yâft mi ŝavad. [nâŝtâ=sobhâne, câŝt=nahâr, pasin=baåd az zohr, bigah=bimwqeå, gah= zud, be mwgeå, napu= tanbal. eŝkaft=ĝâr, pelaŝt= kasif].
alijsh: Hamin twr "peyju" barây e "pager".
Barâ ye «page kardan» xub ast ammâ barâ ye «pager» fekr mikonam «farâxwân, xabarkon» yâ çizi dar in mâyehâ behtar bâşad.

Man manzur am "pager" be maåni ye dastgâh i mesl e telefon e hamrâh ast ke peyâm va ŝomâre râ mi girad va li ertebât âvâi na darad. Farâxânidan= to page vâže ye besyâr monâsebi'st.
alijsh: Mâdarbozrg am be kas i ke lâğar bud be kenâye migoft «hastekul». In vâje bâyad morakkab bâşad ammâ nemidânam az çe. Şomâ çonin vâje yi dârid? Şâyad tarkibbandi yaş mânand e «hastexormâ» bâşad

Ŝurbaxtâne, na.
Pedrud.

alijsh
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby alijsh » 2009-02-15, 13:36

a.akbari wrote:3) Barassihâ ye zabânŝenâsi râ tahrik karde bâŝim. Nemune ye xub e in gozâre xâg = toxm e morĝ ast ke az xâya dar Kordi (Maku, va ŝâyad bâlâtar) ŝoruå mi ŝavad va be xâg (Mokrân) mi rasad.

Rixt e kohantar e in vâje râ man baxtâmadi dar ketâb i ke dar bâre ye guyeş e «Şahr e Bâbak» ast yâftam: xâsiye; ke bâyad Fârsi ye miyâne aş beşavad «xâsiyag». Be gomân e man, xâsiyag bar pâye ye degardisi ye «VHV -> V» (in neveşte râ bexwânid) be rixt e xâyag dar âmade. Dar Kordi yo Fârsi ye Dari, «g» ye pâyâni oftâde va be rixt e «xâya» — va sepas «xâye» — dar âmade. Ammâ dar barx i guyeşhâ ân rox nadâde bal ke xâyag bâr i digar hamân degardisi râ tacrobe karde vo be rixt e «xâg» dar âmade. Albatte inhâ hame aş gomâne ye man ast.

arsham
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby arsham » 2009-02-16, 1:00

a.akbari wrote:4) Fârsi gar ce dar xorâsân be bâlandegi raside, va li neŝânehâ ye Pahlavi ye jonubi dar ân farâvân ast. besyâri az vâžhâ ye mahjur dar Fârsi ye Emruzin dar guyeŝhâ ye mahalli faåal ast, va dar neveŝtehâ ye kohan niz yâft mi ŝavad. [nâŝtâ=sobhâne, câŝt=nahâr, pasin=baåd az zohr, bigah=bimwqeå, gah= zud, be mwgeå, napu= tanbal. eŝkaft=ĝâr, pelaŝt= kasif].


آنچه در خراسان شکوفایی یافته است ادبیات فارسی است نه زبان فارسی. فارسی نو یا دری که در اواخر روزگار ساسانیان در دربارشان رسمیت یافته بود و برخی نامه های واپسین شهریاران ساسانی همچون شیرویه، پسر خسروپرویز، هم بدانبر جای مانده است و نیز پاسخ موبدان ایرانی به فراخوان عمر بن سعد وقاص،فرمانده سپاه اسلام، در چارچوب دو رساله به نامهای "علمای اسلام" و علمای اسلام به دیگر روش" بدان نوشته شده و به ما رسیده، مانند فارسی باستان و فارسی میانه در جنوب غرب ایران زاده شده و پس از گسترش به منطقه پارت که تقریبا همان خراسان و گرگان ایران امروزین است با آن در آمیخته و از نظر واژگانی و آوایی تحت تاثیر آن قرار گرفته است. بنابراین فارسی نو عمدتا یک زبان ایرانی جنوب غربی است که از پارتی، زبان ایرانی شمال غربی، متاثر گشته و کاملا طبیعیست که به گویشهای جنوب غرب و غرب ایران بسیار نزدیک باشد و نه به زبانها و گویشهای ایرانی شرقی

xars
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Re: Persian dialects

Postby xars » 2019-11-13, 16:18

Sorry for bumping an ancient thread but I find the topic interesting and hope the discussion can be continued.

This paper discusses the central plateau dialects:

https://www.academia.edu/8074684/_Media ... n_Plateau_

The author contends that the original vernaculars of the major cities of Central Iran, including Esfahan, Tehran, Yazd and Kashan were once part of this group, and that the major shift to New Persian happened during and after Safavid rule and Shi'ite conversion. He thinks it's likely these dialects were descendents of Median.

The remnants of these Median dialects are still around but they're basically moribund. The Jewish and Zoroastrian communities of the major cities also preserve the original Median dialects of those cities.

This poetry is an example of the old Median dialect of Esfahan:

yā xar mirū yā xar xuδāy.
يا خر ميميرد يا صاحب خر

ey sid (?), tā key gū bixāyi? nē mard-ī pīr hi?
ای نادان، تا کی گه بخایی؟ [مگر] نه مردِ پیری؟

*par(v)āna sūta mabāδ!
پروانه سوخته مباد!

ti/tu biši u ūn bī mayāδ.
تو بروی و او دیگر نیاید

va dih-ī xirāb xarāj nahū.
به دهِ خراب خراج نیست

The situation in the southern provinces is similar, New Persian has replaced the local continuations of Middle Persian in the major cities.

Here's some poetry in the old Shirazi vernacular:

ɣonča sahar maɣaš nake češ a soy-e to toš nadī
غنچه سحر مگر نکرد چشم به سوي تو [و] تورا نديد

tefl-en-o xvašdel-en bešel ɣar vasoy-e xo mē xanat
طفل است و خوش دل است بِهِلَش اگر براي خود مي خندد

The Judeo-Shirazi dialect is probably a continuation of this dialect.

In the perside (south western) dialects these constructions are conserved in the remaining MP dialects spoken in the Kazerun-Fasaa-Shiraz triangle, in Kerman (based on what I've been told) and in Northern Fars dialects like davaani and also in Laari. In Laari as in Northen Ispahani dialects, the agent is always introduced via enclitics, e.g.

I would add: the Bandari dialects, the dialects north around Fareghan, and the Minab area. These are all Perside dialects which have split-ergativity like MP.

Here's some verb conjugations in my own dialect of Larestani:

cheda = raftan "to go"
chedom = raftam
chedesh = rafti
chu = raft
chedem = raftim
chedi = raftid
chedet = raftand

Foe transitive verbs, as said, the agent is introduced via pronominal enclitic, while the verb remains in 3rd singular:

besta = andâxtan (from MP wistan "to shoot")
ombest = andâxtam
otbest = andâxti
oshbest = andâxt
mobest = andâxtim
tobest = andâxtid
shobest = andâxtand

We also preserve the use of istâdan as an auxiliary for the perfect tense, and to form passives, like Middle Persian, also retained by the Fars dialects:

MP:
šud ēstam = I have gone
šud ēstēd = he has gone
nibišt estēd = it is (stands) written
šud ēstād ham = I had gone
šud ēstād = he had gone
nibišt ēstād = it was (stood) written

Larestani:
chedestom = I have gone
chede* = he has gone
naveshte* = it is (stands) written
chedestodom = I had gone
chedestod = he had gone
naveshtestod = it was (stood) written

*the final -st is deleted in 3rd singular

We also have a peculiar way of constructing the present continuous, which has a form like "be in doing". It is also used by Bandari and nearby languages like Bashkardi.

In Lari dialect:

a-chedâ-em = "in-going-I am" = dâram miravam
achedâesh = dâri miravi
achedoy = dârad miravad
achedâam = dârim miravim
achedâi = dârid miravid
achedâen = dârand miravand

There's also a passive past participle in -essa e.g. deressa (paare shode, az daridan), boressa (boride shodeh) etc.

This is from the Middle Iranian passive stem formation -īhist, we have it too in Larestani, eg:

lez-ehest = spilt (intransitive)
chasp-ehest = got stuck [to something]
berz-ehest = roasted (intransitive)

Also kaf- is Parthian for Persian oft- (fall) and is used in all central dialects

kaftan "to fall" was also present in Middle Persian, and is used in Larestani and Bandari which are Perside.

Another interesting feature is the way the agent clitic attaches to pronouns in past transitive constructions. To illustrate, here are some prepositions:

a = to, at (directional complement which often attaches before other prepositions)
az = from
a-se = for

"Ali gave the book to Hasan"

The above sentence in Larestani, if structured in a more Persian way, would be:

Ali ketâb a Hasan oshda

But, the way we usually form it is by attaching the agent clitic (sh) to the preposition (a), and so we get:

Ali ketâb sh-a Hasan da

"I bought the house from him"

xuna az on omxeli => xuna m-az xeli

"He bought me a car"

mâshin m-ase oshxeli => mâshin sh-ase xeledom


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