eskandar - ivrit

n8an
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2018-08-11, 7:28

eskandar wrote:Nira li she zot tsura nehederet lilmod safot.


Legamrey! Zo ha derekh she ani hakhi mamlitz; rak she ani lo batu'akh she mi she makir oti yaskim (miskenim eleh she shomim oti shar bekol miney safot muzarot :lol: )

Ani ohev leha'azin le-musika mizrakhit; im ani lomed kakha, ulai yehye li mivta mizrakhit be-ivrit, haha. (Stam - ha-mivta sheli me'od estandartit :?: ve ani lo khoshev she tishtane. Ha-mivta ha-mizrakhit me'od me'od motset khen be-eynayi, aval af pa'am lo shamati ota ba-arets, khuts mi kshe dibarti im mizrakhim be-gil 100 be-erekh...)


Haha, be zeh ata me'ah akhuz tzodek. Lo yode'a im ze tov o ra, aval pashut ein mamash mivta'im be ivrit hayom. Afilu zmarim she sharim be mivtaim mesuyamim baderekh klal lo medabrim kakha be metziut. Yesh mivta rak le olim khadashim o dovrey safot akherot (bemeyukhad rusim, tzarfatim, etyopim, anglim, amerikaim, australiam ve ko', u b avar lekol mi she ala la aretz).


Ma pitom, ani lo khoshev she azarti otkha im shum davar :lol: aval al kol panim ani sameakh she ata khoshev kakha!


Lo nakhon! Ata noten li motivatzia ve gam azarta li be hindi/urdu im ani lo toeh. Ani mamash ma'arikh otcha kaan, taamin li :D

Ken, yadati! Lamadeti et ze mea televiziya. Gam ani ein li musag me-eyfo magia ha-mila ha-zoti.


Zehoo, hitaklamta gam laslang 8-)

Ken, lif'amim. Hi medaberet anglit kim'at yoter tov mimeni, ve ani rak medaber ktsat ivrit, az b'derekh klal medabrim be-anglit, aval gam medabrim be-ivrit kshe ani rotse letargel, o kshe anakhu tsrikhim safa sodit!


Ani mamash mursham mi ha ivrit shelkha. Ata kazeh khakham!

Lo zokher im katavta et ze lema'ala o lo, aval ani eshal bekhol zot: matai hitkhalta lilmod ivrit? Ekh ata lomed? Ve ekh ata matzliakh lilmod ota be otiyot latiniyot?

Ah, ve ekh ata motze et ha safa? Ha aravit she lamadta azra lekha? Haya li mamash kef lilmod aravit biglal she hirgashti she hi kol kakh doma le ivrit.

Kol hakavod, shuv! Ata od tedaber harbe yoter tov mimeni bizman hakarov :lol:



EDIT:

I just read over my text and saw that I wrote the following:

Haya li mamash kef lilmod aravit biglal she hirgashti she hi kol kakh doma le ivrit.


I didn't receive a ton of formal education in Hebrew, but one thing I do remember is my Hebrew teacher getting extremely irritated by people saying that.

I should have written it like this:

Haya li mamash kef lilmod aravit ki hirgashti she hi kol kakh doma le ivrit.

"Biglal" shouldn't be used with "she"; it should only be used to mean something like "due to" or "as a result of". So something like "lo haya li koakh laasot klum hayom ki hayiti ayef" makes sense, but "lo haya li koakh laasot klum hayom beglal she hayiti ayef" is wrong, and something like "mikeyvan she hayiti ayef" or "mifney she hayiti ayef" is better.


At least that's what one Hebrew teacher said to me a billion years ago :shock: so I may still be wrong.


In any case, "biglal she" is extremely common in casual speech...which is why I catch myself saying it, I guess.
Last edited by n8an on 2018-08-11, 7:38, edited 1 time in total.

n8an
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2018-08-11, 7:37

Regarding my last comment, here is an article about "biglal she":

http://hebrew-academy.org.il/2010/10/14 ... %81%D6%B6/

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-08-11, 19:53

Haha, be zeh ata me'ah akhuz tzodek. Lo yode'a im ze tov o ra, aval pashut ein mamash mivta'im be ivrit hayom. Afilu zmarim she sharim be mivtaim mesuyamim baderekh klal lo medabrim kakha be metziut. Yesh mivta rak le olim khadashim o dovrey safot akherot (bemeyukhad rusim, tzarfatim, etyopim, anglim, amerikaim, australiam ve ko', u b avar lekol mi she ala la aretz).

Be-da'ati, ze khaval... Allah yar7am et ha-mivtaim ha-shonim, ha-safot ha-yehudiyot, ha-migvan ha-yehudi... :(
(Aval be-vat akhat, im ha-mivta ha-amerikayi ha-mekhoar shel ivrit yamut, ze lo nora...)

Lo nakhon! Ata noten li motivatzia ve gam azarta li be hindi/urdu im ani lo toeh. Ani mamash ma'arikh otcha kaan, taamin li :D

Al lo davar, ze kef lefatpet al ha-safot :D Toda lekha she ata medaber iti be-ivrit!

Zehoo, hitaklamta gam laslang 8-)

Lo mamash - ma hevanti et ha-mila "hitaklamta"! (Ani yakhol lenakhesh et ha-muvan shela, aval lo yodea be-diyuk).

Ani mamash mursham mi ha ivrit shelkha. Ata kazeh khakham!

Dayi...tamshikh! :lol: Ani lo khakham, pashut ze kmo she amarta ala aravit. Ani yadati aravit kodem, az lilmod ivrit kalei kalut!

Lo zokher im katavta et ze lema'ala o lo, aval ani eshal bekhol zot: matai hitkhalta lilmod ivrit? Ekh ata lomed? Ve ekh ata matzliakh lilmod ota be otiyot latiniyot?

Hitkhalti ba December o January she avar. Ani mishtamesh be-Pimsleur, ve lif'amim be-Colloquial Hebrew ve Assimil. Aval be-ikar ani sho'el she'elot mi bat ha-zug sheli, ve kshe hayiti tsofe be-televiziya (im ktuviyot), nisiti likhtov milim khadashim ba-makhberet sheli ve akhar kakh livdok otan ba-milon. Me'al ha-kol ani mishtamesh be-Anki. Ani lomed ivrit 20-30 dakot be-erekh kol yom. Zehu!

Ha aravit she lamadta azra lekha? Haya li mamash kef lilmod aravit biglal she hirgashti she hi kol kakh doma le ivrit.

Ken, kolkakh ken. Ze mamash doma. Ha-dikduk mukar legamrei, az kef gam li lilmod ivrit.

Kol hakavod, shuv! Ata od tedaber harbe yoter tov mimeni bizman hakarov :lol:

Ein matsav! Aval toda!

"Biglal" shouldn't be used with "she"; it should only be used to mean something like "due to" or "as a result of".

Yeah, the way I understood it was that "biglal" means "because" when followed by a noun (ani lo rotse latset biglal mezeg ha-avir) and "ki" means "because" when followed by a verb (ani lo rotse latset ki yoredet geshem). But, like you, I often hear people say "biglal she" followed by a verb, and I'll say it too. I do care about speaking properly in languages that I feel somewhat literate in (English, Persian, Arabic, Urdu, etc.) but in Hebrew I'm stubbornly illiterate and so all I care about is speaking naturally. If that means the equivalent of saying "I ain't talk no good," then so be it!

n8an wrote:Regarding my last comment, here is an article about "biglal she":

http://hebrew-academy.org.il/2010/10/14 ... %81%D6%B6/

I could understand the first sentence, after that words I didn't know started appearing and I gave up. Too lazy to (ever) read Hebrew ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2018-08-12, 3:17

eskandar wrote:(Aval be-vat akhat, im ha-mivta ha-amerikayi ha-mekhoar shel ivrit yamut, ze lo nora...)


Loooool! Ani khayav lehagid she ha mivta ha amerikai yoter grua merov ha mivtaim, aval shamata paam mivta rusi khazak be ivrit? :shock:

Al lo davar, ze kef lefatpet al ha-safot :D Toda lekha she ata medaber iti be-ivrit!


Kmo she amarti, khikiti la rega haze she ukhal sofsof laazor le mishu be mashu 8-)

Lo mamash - ma hevanti et ha-mila "hitaklamta"! (Ani yakhol lenakhesh et ha-muvan shela, aval lo yodea be-diyuk).


Lehitaklem = to acclimatise. Literally the English word in Hebrew form :lol:

Dayi...tamshikh! :lol: Ani lo khakham, pashut ze kmo she amarta ala aravit. Ani yadati aravit kodem, az lilmod ivrit kalei kalut!


Tikakh et ha makhma'a! 8-)

Hitkhalti ba December o January she avar. Ani mishtamesh be-Pimsleur, ve lif'amim be-Colloquial Hebrew ve Assimil. Aval be-ikar ani sho'el she'elot mi bat ha-zug sheli, ve kshe hayiti tsofe be-televiziya (im ktuviyot), nisiti likhtov milim khadashim ba-makhberet sheli ve akhar kakh livdok otan ba-milon. Me'al ha-kol ani mishtamesh be-Anki. Ani lomed ivrit 20-30 dakot be-erekh kol yom. Zehu!


Wow, marshim. Ani lo yodea lama, aval af paam lo hevanti ekh mishtamshim be Anki. Ani margish tipesh - ani pashut lo mevin ma holekh sham :| Ve khutz mizeh, otzer hamilim sheli yakhasit katan bekol safa she ani yodea (khutz me anglit...ani mekave). Ani pashut sone lilmod milim ve maadif lehitrakez ba dikduk o ba dvarim akherim. Nora, ani yodea.

Ken, kolkakh ken. Ze mamash doma. Ha-dikduk mukar legamrei, az kef gam li lilmod ivrit.


Eyze yafe ze! Ani tamid omer et ze le anashim ve lo mamash maaminim li - nira li she biglal ha hevdelim be (phonlogy?), anashim lo roim miyad kama she shney hasafot krovot. Same'akh she ata matzliakh lilmod ivrit yoter bekalut :D

Kol hakavod, shuv! Ata od tedaber harbe yoter tov mimeni bizman hakarov :lol:

Ein matsav! Aval toda!

Yeah, the way I understood it was that "biglal" means "because" when followed by a noun (ani lo rotse latset biglal mezeg ha-avir) and "ki" means "because" when followed by a verb (ani lo rotse latset ki yoredet geshem). But, like you, I often hear people say "biglal she" followed by a verb, and I'll say it too. I do care about speaking properly in languages that I feel somewhat literate in (English, Persian, Arabic, Urdu, etc.) but in Hebrew I'm stubbornly illiterate and so all I care about is speaking naturally. If that means the equivalent of saying "I ain't talk no good," then so be it!

I could understand the first sentence, after that words I didn't know started appearing and I gave up. Too lazy to (ever) read Hebrew ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I feel the same tbh, and I really struggle with reading formal or academic Hebrew because I legit never do it. Ever. :doggy: :doggy:


Bekhol mikre, ata noten li motivatzia laavod kashe yoter!

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-11-28, 19:58

n8an wrote:Loooool! Ani khayav lehagid she ha mivta ha amerikai yoter grua merov ha mivtaim, aval shamata paam mivta rusi khazak be ivrit? :shock:

Davka ken, ve ha-mivta ha-ze lo metsik li kmo ha-mivta ha-amerikayi, mishum ma.

Wow, marshim. Ani lo yodea lama, aval af paam lo hevanti ekh mishtamshim be Anki. Ani margish tipesh - ani pashut lo mevin ma holekh sham :| Ve khutz mizeh, otzer hamilim sheli yakhasit katan bekol safa she ani yodea (khutz me anglit...ani mekave). Ani pashut sone lilmod milim ve maadif lehitrakez ba dikduk o ba dvarim akherim. Nora, ani yodea.

Anki lo mesubakh b'khlal, ze pashut kmo flashcards aval digitali. Bekhol ofen, im ata lo ohev letargel milim, lo tohav lehishtamesh be-Anki. Yesh harbe drakhim lilmod ve letargel safot.

Bekhol mikre, ata noten li motivatzia laavod kashe yoter!

Eize kef! Aval ani be'atsmi nora atslan!! :lol:
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-11-30, 4:54

I took the translations we did in this thread and turned them into subtitles for the video, which you can see now if you enable captions!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ax900reMWM
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2020-01-21, 4:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aehHQXw7MQ

kapára - Mizrahi term of endearment (like buddy, habibi, etc.)
mikra - scripture
ivrit mikra'it - Biblical Hebrew
kinú'i - nickname, alternative name (cf. Arabic kunya)
hashpa'a - effect, influence
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2020-01-23, 23:21

eskandar wrote:kapára - Mizrahi term of endearment (like buddy, habibi, etc.)


Wait..."kapara" is considered Mizrahi? My mind is blown. I had never considered it so.

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2020-01-24, 1:48

n8an wrote:Wait..."kapara" is considered Mizrahi? My mind is blown. I had never considered it so.

Yep. Originally a Moroccan usage (نمشي كپارة عليك) and still heavily associated with Mizrahi and/or working-class speech.
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2020-01-24, 2:46

eskandar wrote:
n8an wrote:Wait..."kapara" is considered Mizrahi? My mind is blown. I had never considered it so.

Yep. Originally a Moroccan usage (نمشي كپارة عليك) and still heavily associated with Mizrahi and/or working-class speech.


Is it really? I mean, it really seems like a word everybody uses equally and it is a word of Hebrew origin. I'm honestly surprised to hear it associated with Moroccan Jewish culture, especially since "p" doesn't exist in Moroccan Judaeo-Arabic (or does it?).

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2020-01-24, 3:38

n8an wrote:Is it really? I mean, it really seems like a word everybody uses equally

The Israelis I asked about this word, who are Ashkenazi, told me they wouldn't use the word themselves except perhaps jokingly, as they felt it's a word that "marks" the speaker as Mizrahi (and kind of شعبي).

I'm honestly surprised to hear it associated with Moroccan Jewish culture

I'm surprised by your surprise! If you Google it, pretty much everything that comes up points out that it's Mizrahi usage. Wiktionary gives the etymology as Moroccan Judeo-Arabic. Other sources: 1, 2 (second entry), 3, 4, 5.

especially since "p" doesn't exist in Moroccan Judaeo-Arabic (or does it?).

Seems like it does exist in the dialect, and not just in this word. Here is a transcription of story in Moroccan Judeo-Arabic. It's got [p] all over the place, not just in Hebrew words but in French loans (eg. l'karpet) as well.
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby Saim » 2020-01-24, 10:22

/p/ exists as a marginal consonant in Moroccan Arabic in general for French and Spanish loans. I don't think it's unique to Jews, although the added weight of Hebrew loans might make it more common among them than among Muslims.

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2020-01-24, 14:30

eskandar wrote:
n8an wrote:Is it really? I mean, it really seems like a word everybody uses equally

The Israelis I asked about this word, who are Ashkenazi, told me they wouldn't use the word themselves except perhaps jokingly, as they felt it's a word that "marks" the speaker as Mizrahi (and kind of شعبي).


OMGGGGG people like this exist in 2020? I am honestly grossed out by people saying things like that. In Israel today, Mizrahi/Ashkenazi/Ethiopian/Sfaradi/other speak exactly the same if they learn Hebrew from birth. What does mark speakers is certain ways of speaking but in relation to class, subculture etc and not background. What I'm sure those people were referring to is ערס "ars" subculture, which does overuse words like kapara, motek, neshama etc, and was once upon a time a mostly Mizrahi subculture, but is definitely not Mizrahi only today.

As for using it as "jokingly", sure, most people don't use words like "baby" "honey" etc seriously in daily speech, and it's much the same in Israel - though it's more common there, it's a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I have to say that I'm not a fan of the things those people said.

I'm surprised by your surprise! If you Google it, pretty much everything that comes up points out that it's Mizrahi usage. Wiktionary gives the etymology as Moroccan Judeo-Arabic. Other sources: 1, 2 (second entry), 3, 4, 5.

I'm so surprised tbh. I have never associated it as being a Mizrahi word! I guess the Moroccan Arabic sentence makes more sense now that I see it like that.

"Kapara" is related to the word "Kipur" as in "Yom Kipur", one of the most (if not the most) important days in the Jewish calendar, which includes a 25 hour fast.

Seems like it does exist in the dialect, and not just in this word. Here is a transcription of story in Moroccan Judeo-Arabic. It's got [p] all over the place, not just in Hebrew words but in French loans (eg. l'karpet) as well.


And yes, that makes total sense. Silly me forgetting that Judeo-Arabic had Hebrew sounds :?

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2020-01-24, 19:13

n8an wrote:OMGGGGG people like this exist in 2020? I am honestly grossed out by people saying things like that.

They weren't saying it in a disparaging way, just describing a reality. Similarly in the US, I have total respect for AAVE as a dialect of English every bit as legitimate as my own, but as a non-black person if I were to speak AAVE, I'd be perceived as inauthentic and putting on an act.

In Israel today, Mizrahi/Ashkenazi/Ethiopian/Sfaradi/other speak exactly the same if they learn Hebrew from birth.

I think that's an oversimplification and hasn't been what I've observed.

What does mark speakers is certain ways of speaking but in relation to class, subculture etc and not background.

I don't think you can separate ethnicity/background so neatly from class--they intersect to a large degree.

"Kapara" is related to the word "Kipur" as in "Yom Kipur", one of the most (if not the most) important days in the Jewish calendar, which includes a 25 hour fast.

More specifically, the kapara is the bird sacrificed before Yom Kipur, so in this sense "kapara aleikh" mirrors the "may I be sacrificed for you" expression common throughout the Islamicate world (Persian قربونت برم , Gilaki تی فدا, Azeri sənə qurban, Turkish sana kurban, Levantine Arabic اموت فيك, Pashto قربان دی شم, Urdu تیرے قربان جاؤں , etc.)
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