Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

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Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-02, 10:38

Luís wrote:
Synalepha wrote:- I've discovered pealim which is a godsend for anyone struggling with Hebrew conjugations. There's also the app version of it but it costs 10 euros which - app-wise - is on the expensive side IMO, but I'm left wondering what marvelous features it might treasure for the price of 10 euros.


I really like that site, but I didn't know they had an app.

Hey, software developers need to eat too. I don't understand why people don't have an issue with spending 25 euros on a book but then think 10 euros is too much for a piece of software. I bought the iOS version of Anki some years ago (which was like 20 euros or something) but since I use it everyday, it was definitely worth the price. So, I guess it all comes down to how much you use it.


Of course 10 euros are a measily sum in the grand scheme of things. Mine was more of a reference level thing. The few for-pay apps I had seen so far cost around 2 euros, so that's why I was surprised. But just let me get this clear: I'm not saying 10 euros are definitely an absurd price for an app and would never buy it. If this is what you deduced from what I wrote, I suppose I should've expressed myself better.

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Car » 2020-01-02, 17:35

Luís wrote:Hey, software developers need to eat too. I don't understand why people don't have an issue with spending 25 euros on a book but then think 10 euros is too much for a piece of software. I bought the iOS version of Anki some years ago (which was like 20 euros or something) but since I use it everyday, it was definitely worth the price. So, I guess it all comes down to how much you use it.

I think for a lot of people it comes down to how easy it is to pirate something and how comfortable it is compared to buying the product. In the case of the app, the comfort should be the same, but a printed book may be more comfortable for people. Many just expect all apps to be for free and complain about ads.
Not my view at all, but just look at reviews for paid services/ apps where people seriously complain that it costs anything at all.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-01-08, 9:20

Luís wrote:people don't have an issue with spending 25 euros on a book

:shock: If I'm spending that much on one book, it better be a goddamn good book!

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Luís » 2020-01-08, 11:07

vijayjohn wrote:
Luís wrote:people don't have an issue with spending 25 euros on a book

:shock: If I'm spending that much on one book, it better be a goddamn good book!


Well, it was your suggestion... :lol: Synalepha was talking about Syntax: A Generative Introduction by Andrew Carnie, if I'm not mistaken
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-01-08, 15:17

That cost 25 euros? :o Wtf!

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-08, 16:03

vijayjohn wrote:That cost 25 euros? :o Wtf!


Was it too expensive?

Luís wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Luís wrote:people don't have an issue with spending 25 euros on a book

:shock: If I'm spending that much on one book, it better be a goddamn good book!


Well, it was your suggestion... :lol: Synalepha was talking about Syntax: A Generative Introduction by Andrew Carnie, if I'm not mistaken


Yep, you're not mistaken.

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-01-08, 16:29

Synalepha wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:That cost 25 euros? :o Wtf!


Was it too expensive?

Well, to be fair, it's an American book, and you bought it in Italy through Amazon? I just bought it on campus before I started undergrad. I thought it was something like $10.

EDIT: Plus it's a required textbook in a university course. Required materials for university courses are often outrageously expensive here.

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-08, 16:45

vijayjohn wrote:
Synalepha wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:That cost 25 euros? :o Wtf!


Was it too expensive?

Well, to be fair, it's an American book, and you bought it in Italy through Amazon? I just bought it on campus before I started undergrad. I thought it was something like $10.

EDIT: Plus it's a required textbook in a university course. Required materials for university courses are often outrageously expensive here.


All the textbooks I had to buy for uni cost between 30 and 75 euros. 25 euros looked reasonable to me.

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-01-08, 16:48

Oof, I guess it isn't only here that university textbooks are expensive, then. :o

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-08, 16:51

vijayjohn wrote:Oof, I guess it isn't only here that university textbooks are expensive, then. :o


Luckily there are used ones or you can photocopy them :whistle:

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-13, 14:53

Synalepha wrote: Ideally, I'd like to focus on Ladin, Hebrew and Indonesian but I might change idea in three weeks or three months


And so it is. I want to learn Slovenian to impress a Slovenian guy I like. :p I've always been somewhat interested in Slovenian and now I have the best of reasons to motivate me.

I also have to say I kinda like the fact that I'm learning a language which, for a change, is spoken pretty much around the corner from where I live.

Ciarán12

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Ciarán12 » 2020-01-13, 23:51

Synalepha wrote:I also have to say I kinda like the fact that I'm learning a language which, for a change, is spoken pretty much around the corner from where I live.


I was going to ask, how near are you to the border? I always wondered how clear the line is between the linguistic regions up there in northern Italy. Like, are there a lot of Slovenes in Trieste, or many Italians in the towns in Slovenia along the border? Or is it like night and day, one second everything is all in Italian next it's all Slovenian?

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-14, 0:52

Ciarán12 wrote:
Synalepha wrote:I also have to say I kinda like the fact that I'm learning a language which, for a change, is spoken pretty much around the corner from where I live.


I was going to ask, how near are you to the border?

Florence is roughly 390 km from Trieste, 360 from Gorizia. When I said around the corner I meant compared to Israel or Indonesia. :p

I always wondered how clear the line is between the linguistic regions up there in northern Italy. Like, are there a lot of Slovenes in Trieste, or many Italians in the towns in Slovenia along the border? Or is it like night and day, one second everything is all in Italian next it's all Slovenian?


I've never been there so far, but I think the former is true. There's a Slovenian-speaking minoriry on the Italian side of the border and an Italian-speaking minority on the Slovenian side. Wikipedia seems to have a good article about that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene ... y_in_Italy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian ... n_Slovenia

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby voron » 2020-01-14, 8:37

Ciarán12 wrote:Like, are there a lot of Slovenes in Trieste, or many Italians in the towns in Slovenia along the border? Or is it like night and day, one second everything is all in Italian next it's all Slovenian?

I lived in Trieste and yes, there are tons of Slovenians there. I could hear Slovenian on the bus pretty much every day.

There is also a substantial Serbian community there. The appartment where I stayed was full of Serbs.

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-16, 10:13

My first thoughts on Slovenian:

- I never studied a Slavic language seriously but I was aware they're pretty heavy on morphology so I was prepared for the clusterfuck of case endings.

- I have no idea how the pitch accent works, but I'm trying to listen to as much Slovenian as I can to get used to the prosody.

- I need a way to tell if I'm listening to Slovenian or inadvertedly listening to Croatian. :whistle:

- I'm disappointed but no surprised by the lack of a really good online bilingual dictionary and resources in general. I hope I'll find some good ones if I visit Trieste.

- I should have appreciated Slovenian earlier in my language nerd career. It's exotic enough for my tastes and I can be immersed in the language just by hopping on my car and driving for a few hours.

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-17, 18:23

I've printed two Slovenian grammars that I've found on the net. Then I found out that one of them is actually the grammar of a Slovenian dialect spoken in an Italian valley and the other one is a grammar of Standard Slovene but is a reference grammar written in the language of modern linguistics so it's not always easy to follow it. :roll:

Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-18, 7:42

Synalepha wrote:I've printed two Slovenian grammars that I've found on the net. Then I found out that one of them is actually the grammar of a Slovenian dialect spoken in an Italian valley and the other one is a grammar of Standard Slovene but is a reference grammar written in the language of modern linguistics so it's not always easy to follow it. :roll:


I decided that I really needed a good grammar so I bought the Routledge comprehensive grammar of Slovene.

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Ashucky » 2020-01-18, 12:23

Synalepha wrote:And so it is. I want to learn Slovenian to impress a Slovenian guy I like. :p

OH, what part of Slovenia is he from, actually? You know, Slovene dialects and Standard Slovene can be quite far apart :P

- I have no idea how the pitch accent works, but I'm trying to listen to as much Slovenian as I can to get used to the prosody.

You can ignore the pitch accent entirely. Only about half of Slovene dialects have a pitch accent, and the rest do not have it. So listening to Slovene isn't going to help you because the speakers may or may not speak with a pitch accent (the general "rule" here is that only those who grew up in an area with a pitch accent will have it; for example, my native dialect doesn't have any pitch accent whatsoever). Depending on where your guy is from, he may or may not speak with a pitch accent.

But yeah, just ignore it, it's going to be nothing but an unnecessary distraction. Focus more on pronouncing the vowels right, especially the difference between é/ó and ê/ô (and where <e> is pronounced [ə]).

If you want to, I can help you with pronunciation and such (on Skype or Discord).

- I'm disappointed but no surprised by the lack of a really good online bilingual dictionary and resources in general. I hope I'll find some good ones if I visit Trieste.

Yeah, sadly not much is freely and readily available online, and the majority of Slovene-teaching books is very teacher-centred (ie. the books have very little information for any kind of useful self-study, they're intended to be used with a teacher to supplant the missing explanation). I'm not sure you'll find anything particularly useful in Trieste (but Koper isn't too far away, though!) but you can try and find this audio course (I may have a copy of the book provided inside but not the audio, if you're interested).
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Synalepha

Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-18, 13:29

Ashucky wrote:OH, what part of Slovenia is he from, actually? You know, Slovene dialects and Standard Slovene can be quite far apart :P


Podčetrtek. How's the local dialect?

You can ignore the pitch accent entirely. Only about half of Slovene dialects have a pitch accent, and the rest do not have it. So listening to Slovene isn't going to help you because the speakers may or may not speak with a pitch accent (the general "rule" here is that only those who grew up in an area with a pitch accent will have it; for example, my native dialect doesn't have any pitch accent whatsoever).


I just read that on the Routledge grammar :D I feel relieved lol.

Ashucky wrote:Depending on where your guy is from, he may or may not speak with a pitch accent.


Podčetrtek xD

But yeah, just ignore it, it's going to be nothing but an unnecessary distraction. Focus more on pronouncing the vowels right, especially the difference between é/ó and ê/ô (and where <e> is pronounced [ə]).


How many minimal pairs are there? Also, how important is vowel length to be correctly understood?

If you want to, I can help you with pronunciation and such (on Skype or Discord).


Oh thanks, so kind of you, I think I'll gladly accept the offer but in a few weeks. I'd like to get the hang of some basic grammar before getting more serious about pronunciation. I'll DM you when I feel somewhat ready.

Yeah, sadly not much is freely and readily available online, and the majority of Slovene-teaching books is very teacher-centred (ie. the books have very little information for any kind of useful self-study, they're intended to be used with a teacher to supplant the missing explanation). I'm not sure you'll find anything particularly useful in Trieste (but Koper isn't too far away, though!) but you can try and find this audio course (I may have a copy of the book provided inside but not the audio, if you're interested).


The Routledge grammar seems kinda promising. I'll also check out that course. About Trieste, I've read that a Slovenian book-store has been opened in the city so who knows. But yeah, otherwise there's Kopar around the corner, or Nova Gorica should I also visit that area.

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Re: Synalepha's linguistic stream of consciousness

Postby Ashucky » 2020-01-18, 23:49

Synalepha wrote:[Podčetrtek. How's the local dialect?

Wow, that's far away :D I think Podčetrtek is part of the Styrian dialect group (štajersko narečje), but apart from that I can't really help you, I'm not too familiar with eastern dialects (I think it doesn't have a pitch accent). Meanwhile, here's a song about Podčetrtek, enjoy :lol:

Ashucky wrote:But yeah, just ignore it, it's going to be nothing but an unnecessary distraction. Focus more on pronouncing the vowels right, especially the difference between é/ó and ê/ô (and where <e> is pronounced [ə]).

How many minimal pairs are there? Also, how important is vowel length to be correctly understood?

There are a few but even without that words can sound completely wrong if you use the wrong vowel. A good example is peti, which can be either pêti [ˈpɛ(:)ti] "fifth" or péti [ˈpe(:)ti] "to sing", or even better, otròk [ɔˈtrɔk] "child (nom sg)" vs otrók [ɔˈtro(:)k] "child (gen pl)". There's also je, which can be [jɛ] " [s/he] is" or [je(:)] "[s/he] eats".

Vowel length isn't really important anymore (most stressed vowels tend to be slightly longer than unstressed anyway).

Honestly, they're pretty much the same sounds as in Italian, Slovene ê/è = Italian è (vento or cioè), and ô/ò = ò (porta, sarò), and Slovene é = Italian e (perché), and ó = o (ombra). In unstressed syllables, the difference is neutralised. The only extra vowel Slovene has is the schwa, which can often be predictable from spelling.

The Routledge grammar seems kinda promising. I'll also check out that course. About Trieste, I've read that a Slovenian book-store has been opened in the city so who knows. But yeah, otherwise there's Kopaer around the corner, or Nova Gorica should I also visit that area.

It's by Peter Herrity, right? That's the best Slovene grammar in English out there (and the only one that's actually worth something). Keep in mind, though, that whenever the books says something about the "modern spoken" language, it refers to the Ljubljana dialect, which, contrary to what people from Ljubljana believe, is definitely not considered the most prestigious or the standard dialect by the rest of the country, so don't (always) follow those pieces of advice.
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