Moderator:aaakknu
aaakknu wrote:I'm not sure whether this is going to be helpful, but sometimes threads with useful information get eventually lost among the new ones, and sometimes the same questions get asked over and over, so when I saw the threads about "accussative / partitive" and "future tense", I thought I would make it sticky and easy to find, as those topics are often confusing for beginners (and not only beginners, honestly )
We can use these threads for further discussion of the topics.
1. Future tense
2. Accusative / partitive cases
We could create other threads about difficult grammar topics, it could be some kind of a "series", what do you think?
If you like this idea, what topics do you think we should cover next?
I'm not a native speaker, so my knowledge is not perfect, I frequently make mistakes myself, but I thought I could use "Eesti keele grammatika" from the eki.ee website or other helpful Estonian sources that aren't accessible to beginners and translate some useful information. Ainurakne could also write some explanations and examples, since he is a native speaker (if he is willing and has the time to do so, of course).
What do you think?
Sure. If anyone would tell me what to write about.aaakknu wrote:Ainurakne could also write some explanations and examples, since he is a native speaker (if he is willing and has the time to do so, of course).
ainurakne wrote:I think I have explained the difference between ma- and da-infinitive more than a few times.
Linguaphile wrote:Edit: I just created a thread and post for this topic.
These could also be translated simply as "I am eating an apple" and "I am eating apples" - what's important is that we are talking about a process, it doesn't matter how many apples will actually get eaten.suomi888 wrote:1. Ma söön õuna (osastav). I am eating/ eat part of an apple.
3. Ma söön õunu (mitmuse osastav). I am eating some of the apples.
Many verbs require an additional "helper" word when used with a total object. The verb "sööma" is usually accompanied by "ära":suomi888 wrote:2. Ma söön õuna (omastav). I will eat/eat an apple completely.
4. Ma söön õunad (mitmuse nimetav). I eat all apples.
In this case I agree that these more likely indicate the partialness / abstractness of the objects rather than the action being a process.suomi888 wrote:5. Ostsin toitu. I bought some food.
6. Ostsin raamatuid. I bought some books.
Or more likely - "I was buying a book".suomi888 wrote:8. Ostsin raamatut. I bought part of a book (like a few pages).
"Reklaamid on tüütud." more likely means that advertisements (in general) are annoying, rather than all the advertisements being annoying. "Reklaam on tüütu." could mean the same thing, they are just referred to as an abstract phenomenon rather than as individual advertisements. If this would refer to a single specific advertisement, then I think this would have been specified in the sentence.suomi888 wrote:1. Reklaam on tüütu. The (One) advertisement is annoying.
2. Reklaamid on tüütud. All advertisements are annoying.
Where did you find this? It looks like a typo, or a part of a sentence (e.g. "Reklaami on tüütu vaadata.").suomi888 wrote:3. Reklaami on tüütu. Some parts of the (one) advertisement are annoying.
This means "There are annoying advertisements." or "There are advertisements that are annoying.". This could stand on its own, but is more likely a part of something bigger, e.g. a comparing list: "Reklaame on tüütuid ja vähem tüütuid." - "There are advertisements that are annoying and there are ones that are less so."suomi888 wrote:3. Reklaame on tüütuid. Some parts of all these advertisements are annoying.
Without knowing the context, it seems a little weird, but I think it's rather "Do you have a book?" / "Do you own a book?".suomi888 wrote:6. Kas sul on raamatut? Do you have some parts of the book?
suomi888 wrote:Soome on osa Põhjalast. or Soome on üks Põhjamaadest. or Soome on Põhjamaa.
You could also use nominative case with these:suomi888 wrote:8. Vaadis on bensiini.
9. Klaasis on vett.
10. Meil on lootust.
11. Aias kasvas lilli.
suomi888 wrote:Hi all learners, I don't know how active is this forum, but I have some questions on Estonian grammar, particularly on complement and object.
ainurakne wrote:I think you are focusing so much on the wholeness/partialness of the things the objects represent, that you are forgetting the action itself. Of course, partitive grammatical object could mean that you are dealing with only a part of an object or a partial set of objects, but it could also mean that the action is non-resultative or perceived as a process.
suomi888 wrote:3. Reklaami on tüütu. Some parts of the (one) advertisement are annoying.
suomi888 wrote:One thing to point out in the sentence I made. I was thinking that if the subject can be partitive, as in "klaasis on vett.", why can't partitive be the subjective of this predicative clause grammatically?suomi888 wrote:3. Reklaami on tüütu. Some parts of the (one) advertisement are annoying.
suomi888 wrote:3. Reklaami on tüütu. Some parts of the (one) advertisement are annoying.
suomi888 wrote:However, I also saw this sentence with incomplete action, which is also marked with the "helper".
3. Kui loen raamatuid läbi,... - While I was reading the book (through),...
suomi888 wrote:I'm not quite sure are these all related, but I noticed that in Estonian, a lot of verbs have these kind of helpers or markers, and they usually change the meaning a bit. For instance:
Ära tundma: To recognize
Välja otsima: To find seek out
Ära ostma: To buy or purchase
Välja minema: To go out of
Ära tapma: To murder
You could make the whole thing partitive similarly to the same example in partitive plural:suomi888 wrote:3. Reklaami on tüütu. Some parts of the (one) advertisement are annoying.
suomi888 wrote:2. Õpin eesti keele selgeks/ära. - I will learn Estonian (fluently or completely).
Yes, this is completely valid - "When/while (being in the process of) reading through the books ...".suomi888 wrote:However, I also saw this sentence with incomplete action, which is also marked with the "helper".
3. Kui loen raamatuid läbi,... - While I was reading the book (through),...
While the others might be compounds that give a different meaning to the verb, then these are just for emphasis - it's perfectly fine to use these verbs without "ära".suomi888 wrote:Ära ostma: To buy or purchase
Ära tapma: To murder
Good posts.Linguaphile wrote:I can't add much to what Ainrurakne explained, but I just want to say it in my non-native-speaker perspective in case hearing it a different way helps to understand the difference between whole and partial object.
Linguaphile wrote:suomi888 wrote:However, I also saw this sentence with incomplete action, which is also marked with the "helper".
3. Kui loen raamatuid läbi,... - While I was reading the book (through),...
What was the context of this phrase (the rest of the sentence), and how did you come up with that translation? I'm not sure what they're trying to say without seeing the rest of the sentence, but it might be if/when I read some of the books through...
ainurakne wrote:Yes, this is completely valid - "When/while (being in the process of) reading through the books ...".suomi888 wrote:However, I also saw this sentence with incomplete action, which is also marked with the "helper".
3. Kui loen raamatuid läbi,... - While I was reading the book (through),...
They can, if "läbi" indicates how the object is interacted with, but partitive case indicates the way the action is performed.suomi888 wrote:As I mentioned in my last threat, I though "läbi" and partial object can't exist in the same sentence...
Yes, these words can appear in negative senteces.suomi888 wrote:*Negative sentences (I personally think that it doesn't work here, since partial object and completion clash together in terms of meaning. However, someone on Facebook corrected me in these ways: Sentence number 9 and 10. I just want to know why he or she would think that way).
While I can see where this is coming from and how this makes sense in some cases, I would say that "Lugesin ühe artikli." is an incorrect sentence.suomi888 wrote:*Or like in sentence number 3, where you can use the word "üks" to replace completion helper "läbi".
Or "I was reading the article" or "I did some reading of an/the article".suomi888 wrote:1) Lugesin artiklit. I was reading an article.
Or "I was reading the articles." or "I did some reading of some/the articles.".suomi888 wrote:2) Lugesin artikleid. I was reading some articles.
As mentioned before, this feels wrong to me. I would say "Lugesin artikli läbi.", "Lugesin ühe artikli läbi.", "Lugesin artiklit." or "Lugesin üht(e) artiklit." depending on what exactly I want to say.suomi888 wrote:3) Lugesin ühe artikli / Lugesin artikli läbi. I read one article.
Or "I read the articles all the way through.".suomi888 wrote:6) Ma lugesin artiklid läbi. I read through all articles.
Or "I didn't read the article." or "I didn't do any reading of the article.".suomi888 wrote:7) Ma ei lugenud artiklit. I didn´t read an article.
Or "I didn't read the articles." or "I didn't do any reading of the articles.".suomi888 wrote:8) Ma ei lugenud artikleid. I didn't read some articles.
Yes. I didn't read it all the way through, even though I may have done some reading of it.suomi888 wrote:9) Ma ei lugenud artiklit läbi. I didn't read through the article.
Or "I didn't read through the articles." - I didn't read them all the way through, even though I may have done some reading of them.suomi888 wrote:10) Ma ei lugenud artikleid läbi. I didn't read through some articles.
"Loe artikkel läbi!" - Read an/the article through!suomi888 wrote:11) Loe (üks) artikkel läbi! Read an article through!
Yes. Could be also just an article, though.suomi888 wrote:12) Ma loen artikli läbi. I will read through the article.
Yes.suomi888 wrote:13) Loe (need) artiklid läbi! Read (these) articles through!
Again, to me it feels wrong without "läbi".suomi888 wrote:14) Loe artikkel läbi! Read an article!
Again, to me it feels wrong without "läbi".suomi888 wrote:15) Loe artiklid läbi! Read articles! [/b]
More like "Do (some) reading of an/the article!". Doesn't feel very rare to me, though.suomi888 wrote:16) Loe artiklit! (rare) Read some parts of the article! (As in sentence like "joo vett" - drink some water.)
Or "Don't read the article!" or "Don't do any reading of the article!".suomi888 wrote:17) Ära loe artiklit! Don't read an article!
Or "Don't read the articles!" or "Don't do any reading of the articles.".suomi888 wrote:18) Ära loe artikleid! Don't read some articles!
suomi888 wrote:Milline neist on õige lause ja miks?
= Do you have a/the problem?suomi888 wrote:Kas sul on probleem?
Do you have (the) problems? It still sounds awkward to me though. (Maybe because the problems would be ongoing, I want to use partitive here as if the having of problems is an incomplete action. Or maybe it's because "some" is implicit.)suomi888 wrote:Kas sul on probleemid?
Nope, don't use genitive.suomi888 wrote:Kas sul on probleemi?
= Do you have (some) problems? Are you having a problem? Are you having problems? This one sounds the most natural to me.suomi888 wrote:Kas sul on probleeme?
Linguaphile wrote:Nope, don't use genitive.suomi888 wrote:Kas sul on probleemi?
suomi888 wrote:Linguaphile wrote:Nope, don't use genitive.suomi888 wrote:Kas sul on probleemi?
Aga osastav kääne? Kas see on võimalik?
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