The left wing on the internet?

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-12, 6:09

Attack ≠ kill

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby md0 » 2019-12-12, 6:21

Welp. That's certainly not going to motivate me to put all that effort again next time I encounter an apparent troll. That's how cynicism reproduces :|

Vlürch wrote:But anyway, as for the rest of your post, it's incomprehensible to me that "antifa" is supposed to be a general term for all anti-fascists because I always heard it referring to specific (interconnected) organisations that are all part of the same specific kind of anti-fascist movement... I mean, I'm 100% certain I've heard/seen people say things along the lines of "I'm anti-fascist but hate antifa". If "antifa" is literally nothing but a synonym for "anti-fascist", that makes no sense.

And like, there are "antifa" Twitter accounts and whatnot that all use the same flag, but not everyone who calls themselves anti-fascist uses that flag. That flag also isn't included on the Wikipedia article on anti-fascism, but is included on the articles for the organisations calling themselves antifa ("antifa" is even a redirect page to organisations, and this article explicitly refers to anti-fascist groups), so if it was a universal anti-fascist symbol, it would logically be included on the main article and people who don't have connections to any groups would use it...? :?

I absolutely think violence against fascists is justified so I won't argue that as a reason to be cautious about identifying as "antifa" or using that flag or whatever, but I don't think (even accidentally) claiming connections to organisations you have no connections to is ever a good idea for several reasons.


It all very much depends on how loose a structure are you willing to call an organisation. Antifa groups are very local in their scope, they are focused on defending their hometown at most, sometimes in bigger cities they focus on specific neighbourhoods. They tend to share an aesthetic, derived by the German post-war antifa, and some very obvious ideological similarities ("we shouldn't tolerate intolerance"), but the rest is situational, aka what makes sense to do to regain public space in our situation.

I was at a talk few years ago, hosted by my local antifa, and one of the point they made is that Cypriot fascism requires them to adopt certain positions (specifically supporting the creation of a federal Cypriot state) that many antifa in Europe would consider a liberal position. And the relation to state power is such a core principle, yet it's not shared. For another example, see the Anti-German faction in German antifa, which few outside Germany can even comprehend.
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-12, 8:17

md0 wrote:I was at a talk few years ago, hosted by my local antifa, and one of the point they made is that Cypriot fascism requires them to adopt certain positions (specifically supporting the creation of a federal Cypriot state) that many antifa in Europe would consider a liberal position.

"Liberal" as opposed to left-wing? (I'm trying to understand what point you're trying to make here, but I'm not sure I get it).
And the relation to state power is such a core principle, yet it's not shared.

What do you mean by this?

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Vlürch » 2019-12-12, 15:15

xBlackHeartx wrote:...

Did xBlackHeartx's account get hacked or something? :? Or is this a mental problem similar to what I've had in the past? Or just trolling?

Anyway, this part of the post deserves a serious response:
xBlackHeartx wrote:Vlurch, you fell victim to this once yourself. Do you think someone should've attacked you purely because you were lead astray?

Yes. I consider myself to have been attacked several times on forums (including this one), even if nobody else saw it that way. That was what made me seriously reflect on what was wrong with me and my views. I'm glad I was torn several new assholes (one just a month or two ago) because that's the only way to really put things like that in the past.

Yes, I'll always be seen as a racist, misogynist, transphobe, Islamophobe, etc. by everyone who's even half-decent and I wish I wasn't, but I absolutely deserve to be seen as those things for the rest of my life. It doesn't matter that I was those things only for a brief period in my life. The Holocaust was a brief period in Hitler's life. The saying "once a Nazi, always a Nazi" exists for a reason... and while I was never a Nazi, a left-wing bigot who prefers the company of right-wing bigots to left-wing non-bigots is still an absolutely reprehensible person who should have no right to live.

There's also a difference between "not having a right to live" and "deserving to be killed". I don't think fascists deserve to live, but that doesn't mean I'd advocate a system where anyone is killed. In a perfect world all fascists would be killed by drones that can detect fascism wherever it surfaces, but this world is far from ideal in literally every way and we'll never have drones like that. That might be a good thing, too, because the drones would likely end up killing all of humanity.

From a religious point of view killing a fascist is just as bad as killing a non-fascist, but from an ethical point of view killing a fascist is better than not killing a fascist. I'd reconcile that as "I'd personally never kill anyone, but I'm not going to complain if fascists are killed". Besides, most people who'd violently attack fascists wouldn't kill them. I don't think it's a good idea to beat up fascists simply because violence should only ever be the last resort and it'll make you look like the bad guy ("look! it's those dirty lefties starting shit again!"), but if fascists start infiltrating your territory, it's absolutely justifiable to beat them up.

I think incidents of anyone being attacked (whether it be verbally, violently or even fatally) should always be handled on a case-by-case basis from a clean slate, with lenience given if the victim was a bigot and the attack was motivated by opposition to bigotry. Still, I don't think there should be rewards for violence of any kind for obvious reasons. It actually makes me sad that the very concept of "war heroes" exists, too, because violence should never be glorified.
md0 wrote:It all very much depends on how loose a structure are you willing to call an organisation.

Well, organisations don't have to have leaders, so I think a very loosely structured group of people with a common cause is still an organisation if they interact with each other because of that common cause.
md0 wrote:Antifa groups are very local in their scope, they are focused on defending their hometown at most, sometimes in bigger cities they focus on specific neighbourhoods.

Huh... there is (or at least was) at least one nation-wide "antifa" group in Finland, on Twitter. The only one I can find right now, though, is called "Antifa Finland", but at first glance it's an insanely bigoted far-right account. :shock: It could maybe be satirical of far-right views, but it seems more likely that it's a legit fascist possibly pretending to be a satirical fascist or something like that. But I know there was some kind of a Finnish "antifa" account that doxed far-righters at protests and whatnot, though, which I'm 51% sure I even followed, but I can't find it anymore... I guess it might have been suspended? :?

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby linguoboy » 2019-12-12, 15:28

xBlackHeartx wrote:Are you all insane??? You're arguing that people deserve to DIE purely for their political beliefs!

The current death toll from antifa activity in the USA still stands at 0.
The current death toll from right-wing extremism in the USA over just the last ten years is 313. [citation]

xBlackHeartx wrote:If you people like you are tolerated on this forum, I no longer want any part of it.

Promise?
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby md0 » 2019-12-13, 14:51

vijayjohn wrote:
md0 wrote:I was at a talk few years ago, hosted by my local antifa, and one of the point they made is that Cypriot fascism requires them to adopt certain positions (specifically supporting the creation of a federal Cypriot state) that many antifa in Europe would consider a liberal position.

"Liberal" as opposed to left-wing? (I'm trying to understand what point you're trying to make here, but I'm not sure I get it).
And the relation to state power is such a core principle, yet it's not shared.

What do you mean by this?


Either definition of liberal would work here, since it's about using a state as an instrument to protect freedoms, something that many antifascists would find an oxymoron because they distrust or even oppose states.
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-14, 3:34

Thanks! :)
Vlürch wrote:Did xBlackHeartx's account get hacked or something? :? Or is this a mental problem similar to what I've had in the past? Or just trolling?

Sort of both of the last two. This is how he's typically behaved every time he logs on, except that he doesn't usually stay on UniLang this long.

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Vlürch » 2019-12-14, 10:26

If it's worth anything (maybe at least the knowledge that they weren't suspended), I found the Finnish "antifa" Twitter account I was talking about, it's this one. Turns out there's no mention of the term "antifa", just that they're an "anti-fascistic network", which is why I didn't find it earlier. I'm pretty sure I used to follow that account in the past, but for some reason unfollowed at some point... well, I followed them again just now.

md0 wrote:Either definition of liberal would work here, since it's about using a state as an instrument to protect freedoms, something that many antifascists would find an oxymoron because they distrust or even oppose states.

I guess I'm too pessimistic to be a true anti-fascist, since I firmly believe that power vacuums are bound to be filled sooner or later and the ones to establish the new power structure are almost guaranteed to be oppressive assholes of some kind, most likely conservative right-wing nationalists since they can organise much more efficiently than any kind of anti-nationalists and have appeal in concepts like "unity" and "personal gain" to get support... there will never be a time when the majority of people would say "no" to either one of those two things. :para:
vijayjohn wrote:Sort of both of the last two. This is how he's typically behaved every time he logs on, except that he doesn't usually stay on UniLang this long.

Huh... I had no idea, I'd only ever seen his posts that were about language stuff.

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Yasna » 2019-12-16, 21:12

linguoboy wrote:The current death toll from antifa activity in the USA still stands at 0.

Mostly due to their lack of competence with weapons.

Antifa's Deadly Year Shows the Extremism on the Far Left

"Last January, Charles Landeros, 30, wearing a "Smash the patriarchy" t-shirt, went to his daughter's middle school in Eugene, Oregon, to discuss a custody dispute. When asked by two school resource officers to leave the building, Charles refused. They attempted to place him under arrest, and he pulled out a handgun and fired two rounds at them. He missed and was killed by returning gunfire from one of the officers. Charles' daughter was feet away. Authorities later found Landeros was carrying an extra magazine on his belt.

Soon after the news broke of his death, Popular Mobilization, the Portland anti-fascist group that organized the protest turned riot in June where I was beaten, claimed him as one of its own.

"Charlie Landeros, beloved comrade and street medic, was murdered by Eugene police 2 days ago," the group tweeted. "They were a non-binary activist of color who did amazing work in their community and were gunned down in front of their children's school.""


"Six months later, in July, police shot and killed Willem van Spronsen, 69, after he attacked an Immigrations and Customs Enforcement facility in Tacoma, Washington. Police said he tried to ignite a 500-gallon propane tank attached to the building and was armed with a rifle and incendiary devices.

Shortly before the attack, van Spronsen sent a manifesto to friends. In it, he wrote "I am antifa" and referred to ICE facilities as "concentration camps." They did not report the manifesto to police.

After his death, antifa groups issued eulogies. The group Seattle Antifascist Action described van Spronsen as a "good friend and comrade" and "a martyr." Memorials were organized in Washington and Oregon."


And then there's this:

"One extremist who later referred to van Spronsen as a "martyr" on social media went on to carry out his own attack. On August 4, 24-year-old Connor Betts killed nine and injured dozens in a mass shooting in Dayton, Ohio. He was shot dead by responding police officers.

Though the investigation into a motive remains ongoing, authorities have stated that Betts was exploring "violent ideologies" before the massacre. A Twitter account that appeared to belong to Betts retweeted content supporting antifa protesters. Offline, he even participated in armed black bloc tactics."
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-20, 17:38

I already mentioned that the actions of individuals who self-identify as part of Antifa aren't necessarily equivalent to Antifa itself.

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby md0 » 2019-12-20, 18:40

I would let him have it, even though nothing in the first story even hints to politically-motivated violence. So, the count stands at -1 in the US?

Far-left has a death toll in Greece though (and in Germany, and in other European countries). In Greece, the targets are historically remnants of the Junta that fell in 1974, but in some occasions innocent bystanders have being killed and the actual targets survived. It's a matter of ongoing debate whether the driver of a high-profile junta member is a legitimate target.
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Yasna » 2019-12-20, 20:01

md0 wrote:I would let him have it, even though nothing in the first story even hints to politically-motivated violence.

A "school resource officer" is basically a second-rate police officer. To an unhinged antifa member undoubtedly just another "pig".
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Saim » 2019-12-20, 20:04

Good to know we’re back in the realm of extrapolations.

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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby md0 » 2019-12-21, 10:48

Yasna wrote:
md0 wrote:I would let him have it, even though nothing in the first story even hints to politically-motivated violence.

A "school resource officer" is basically a second-rate police officer. To an unhinged antifa member undoubtedly just another "pig".

By the same logic, every murder of a PoC is a hate crime regardless of motive, and if I don't agree with that, then I'm sure you don't either.

There is political violence to be attributed to the left (but I would insist, mostly in Europe, not in the US) - you don't have to force-interpret new cases, especially when your argument doesn't even benefit from them.
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Yasna » 2019-12-21, 22:12

md0 wrote:By the same logic, every murder of a PoC is a hate crime regardless of motive, and if I don't agree with that, then I'm sure you don't either.

It's more like if a member of the KKK murders a black person, it's likely that racism played a part. And if I agree with that, then I'm sure you do too.
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby Gormur » 2019-12-21, 23:00

I'm sure nobody cares but the best way to describe my leanings is socialist and it seems like nobody expects that - to say the least :)
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Re: The left wing on the internet?

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-22, 21:35

Yasna wrote:
md0 wrote:By the same logic, every murder of a PoC is a hate crime regardless of motive, and if I don't agree with that, then I'm sure you don't either.

It's more like if a member of the KKK murders a black person, it's likely that racism played a part.

Murdering black people is the whole point of the KKK. Murdering the police is not the point of Antifa.


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