Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

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Prantsis
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Prantsis » 2019-05-22, 4:41

stordragon wrote:-ldasa on ebaproduktiivne liide tähenduses ‘poolest’: kasv : kasvu > kasvu/ldasa = kasvu poolest, ealdasa, aruldasa, sisuldasa, loomuldasa, ajaldasa. Liitub omastava tüvele.
I believe almost each & every one of them is archaic or uncommon. I've never seen this before from any large corpus of text!

In the etTenTen corpus, loomuldasa has 223 matches, sisuldasa has 34. This includes recent press articles.
And also: vormildasa, kasvuldasa, olemuseldasa, meeleldasa, nimeldasa, ohuldasa, pärimuseldasa, rahaldasa, kehaldasa, kliimaldasa, hinnaldasa...

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-05-22, 5:05

Stordragon, I think you edited your post to add the part asking about the origin after I had started responding to your comments about Võro and the dictionaries and corpora, so I didn't see it until after I'd posted mine:
stordragon wrote:Could it consist of -lt + as(j)a (omastav of asi)??

stordragon wrote:However, :hmm: any thoughts about the origin of this suffix?

Naava mentioned possessive affixes. I do think that seems likely based on what I read online, but if so, I have no idea how Naava figured it out so fast. (How did you do that, Naava?) This site gives "suuruuttansa" as an equivalent for "suurutasa", "laajaltansa" as an equivalent for "laialdasa" and so on. While I can see how words that end with -tansa resemble those that end with -tasa in Estonian, I'm wondering how Naava figured it out from the examples Prantsis gave, which end with -ldasa. -ldasa and -tansa aren't all that similar, or at least, to me, the similarity isn't obvious. :P Was -nsa what you were thinking of, Naava, or something else? I'm sure you can understand that article that I linked to better than I do, too.

Prantsis wrote:In the etTenTen corpus, loomuldasa has 223 matches, sisuldasa has 34. This includes recent press articles.
And also: vormildasa, kasvuldasa, olemuseldasa, meeleldasa, nimeldasa, ohuldasa, pärimuseldasa, rahaldasa, kehaldasa, kliimaldasa, hinnaldasa...

:D :waytogo:

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby stordragon » 2019-05-22, 5:08

Prantsis wrote:
stordragon wrote:-ldasa on ebaproduktiivne liide tähenduses ‘poolest’: kasv : kasvu > kasvu/ldasa = kasvu poolest, ealdasa, aruldasa, sisuldasa, loomuldasa, ajaldasa. Liitub omastava tüvele.
I believe almost each & every one of them is archaic or uncommon. I've never seen this before from any large corpus of text!

In the etTenTen corpus, loomuldasa has 223 matches, sisuldasa has 34. This includes recent press articles.
And also: vormildasa, kasvuldasa, olemuseldasa, meeleldasa, nimeldasa, ohuldasa, pärimuseldasa, rahaldasa, kehaldasa, kliimaldasa, hinnaldasa...

Yes this is normal because you searched for them *intentionally*. I never see these words in transcripts of conference speech, etc. They do exist but the occurrences are considered statistically insignificant.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby stordragon » 2019-05-22, 5:56

Linguaphile wrote:Stordragon, I think you edited your post to add the part asking about the origin after I had started responding to your comments about Võro and the dictionaries and corpora, so I didn't see it until after I'd posted mine:

It's no problem, thanks for the clarification!

Linguaphile wrote:
stordragon wrote:However, :hmm: any thoughts about the origin of this suffix?

Naava mentioned possessive affixes. I do think that seems likely based on what I read online, but if so, I have no idea how Naava figured it out so fast. (How did you do that, Naava?) This site gives "suuruuttansa" as an equivalent for "suurutasa", "laajaltansa" as an equivalent for "laialdasa" and so on. While I can see how words that end with -tansa resemble those that end with -tasa in Estonian, I'm wondering how Naava figured it out from the examples Prantsis gave, which end with -ldasa. -ldasa and -tansa aren't all that similar, or at least, to me, the similarity isn't obvious. :P Was -nsa what you were thinking of, Naava, or something else? I'm sure you can understand that article that I linked to better than I do, too.


Well I think these materials you quote all refer to a Finnish site which they interpret the affixes from a very Finnish perspective. However, IMHO I've never learnt Estonian had this series of affixes before, did it? If it did then please forgive my ignorance. Even though there are a few evidences of other cognate pairs e.g. ET-EE kaasa/kaas-(kaasautor) = EN-GB along/co-(coauthor) which is obviously related to FI-FI kanssa which proves that the nasal consonant is subject to weakening in Estonian in this syllabic position (also cf. eestikeelne > vironkielinen), HOWEVER.. my understanding is "kellegi/millegi poolest" is more like "from xx's perspective" or "in terms of xx" so the possessive affix hypothesis might not be very convincing.

You know sometimes even native speakers of close sister languages might commit mistakes when it comes to false friends despite of the two being obvious cognates, e.g. Germans often translate "Darf ich mal erfahren, was dort passiert ist?" into "Mag ik even ervaren wat er is gebeurd?" while a genuine Dutchman would say "Mag ik even vernemen wat er is gebeurd?"..
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2019-05-22, 6:14

stordragon wrote:
stordragon wrote:However, :hmm: any thoughts about the origin of this suffix?

Naava mentioned possessive affixes. I do think that seems likely based on what I read online, but if so, I have no idea how Naava figured it out so fast. (How did you do that, Naava?)

The answer is, as always, Finnish... :whistle:

We have the same construction with the same meaning here (both that -ldasa and -tasa) and I think that it even looks exactly the same in South Western dialects as in Estonian. Anyway, that's how I knew what it was when I saw it.

Both of these have two suffixes: -ldasa is ablative -lda + 3rd person possessive suffix -sa, and suuruutasa has partitive -ta and the same possessive suffix -sa. (cf. loomuldasa ~ loomult)

In Finnish it would -ltansa and -ttansa: väriltänsä, kooltansa, muodoltansa / suuruuttansa, pienuuttansa, nuoremmuuttansa. It's still productive, and the possessive suffix can be changed, too: (1st) suuruuttani, (2nd) suuruuttasi, (3rd) suruuttansa ; (1st pl) suuruuttamme, (2) suuruuttanne, (3) suuruuttansa.

(In South Western dialects, I've definitely heard väriltäs, kooltas, muodoltas, but I'm not sure if they ever have the final -a there (väriltäsä, kooltasa, muodoltasa). I don't know these dialects all that well to say for sure. :D But it's definitely closer to Estonian than to standard Finnish, and pretty much proves that that's what happened in Estonian as well.)

//EDIT: I googled "väriltäsä" and found a few results, such as this poem: se oli väriltäsä sininen - "the colour of it was blue". The results seem to be in some Savonian dialect, so now I can say that -ltasa is used at least in (some) Eastern Finnish dialects.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby stordragon » 2019-05-22, 6:22

Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:
stordragon wrote:However, :hmm: any thoughts about the origin of this suffix?

Naava mentioned possessive affixes. I do think that seems likely based on what I read online, but if so, I have no idea how Naava figured it out so fast. (How did you do that, Naava?)

The answer is, as always, Finnish... :whistle:

We have the same construction with the same meaning here (both that -ldasa and -tasa) and I think that it even looks exactly the same in South Western dialects as in Estonian. Anyway, that's how I knew what it was when I saw it.

Both of these have two suffixes: -ldasa is ablative -lda + 3rd person possessive suffix -sa, and suuruutasa has partitive -ta and the same possessive suffix -sa. (cf. loomuldasa ~ loomult)

In Finnish it would -ltansa and -ttansa: väriltänsä, kooltansa, muodoltansa / suuruuttansa, pienuuttansa, nuoremmuuttansa. It's still productive, and the possessive suffix can be changed, too: (1st) suuruuttani, (2nd) suuruuttasi, (3rd) suruuttansa ; (1st pl) suuruuttamme, (2) suuruuttanne, (3) suuruuttansa.

(In South Western dialects, I've definitely heard väriltäs, kooltas, muodoltas, but I'm not sure if they ever have the final -a there (väriltäsä, kooltasa, muodoltasa). I don't know these dialects all that well to say for sure. :D But it's definitely closer to Estonian than to standard Finnish, and pretty much proves that that's what happened in Estonian as well.)


OK you rock I have to give in :y: But frankly speaking I never saw this type of archaic possessive affix elsewhere in Estonian. I simply cannot figure out how exactly this suffix can add to the meaning of an adverb without being used.
Last edited by stordragon on 2019-05-22, 6:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2019-05-22, 6:26

stordragon wrote:OK you rock I have to give in :y: But frankly speaking I never saw this this type of the archaic possessive affix elsewhere in Estonian.

Haha thanks. :)

That was why I was surprised as well! It seems Estonian will keep surprising me again and again. :D

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-05-22, 12:50

Naava wrote:We have the same construction with the same meaning here (both that -ldasa and -tasa) and I think that it even looks exactly the same in South Western dialects as in Estonian. Anyway, that's how I knew what it was when I saw it.

Both of these have two suffixes: -ldasa is ablative -lda + 3rd person possessive suffix -sa, and suuruutasa has partitive -ta and the same possessive suffix -sa. (cf. loomuldasa ~ loomult)

In Finnish it would -ltansa and -ttansa: väriltänsä, kooltansa, muodoltansa / suuruuttansa, pienuuttansa, nuoremmuuttansa. It's still productive, and the possessive suffix can be changed, too: (1st) suuruuttani, (2nd) suuruuttasi, (3rd) suruuttansa ; (1st pl) suuruuttamme, (2) suuruuttanne, (3) suuruuttansa.

Cool! Thanks Naava!

Edit:
That info led me to do another search and I found some interesting things.
Dialect variation for "ajaldasa" with suffixes -ldes, -ldase, -llasa, -llase:
aaldes (Central: Põltsamaa)
ajaldase (Peipsiäärne: Iisaku)
ajallasa (northeastern: Kuusalu, Haljala, Viru-Nigula)
ajallase (northeastern: Lüganuse)

And even a couple of -ldasi suffixes from Torma:
meeleldasi meele järgi
aruldasi parajalt
Although presumably aruldasi is related to haruldane, and if so then it isn't formed from the ablative, since the -lda would just be part of the stem. But that meeleldasi though.... :D

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2019-05-22, 13:37

Linguaphile wrote:Cool! Thanks Naava!

Np! :)

stordragon wrote:I simply cannot figure out how exactly this suffix can add to the meaning of an adverb without being used.

What do you mean by 'without being used'? :hmm:

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby stordragon » 2019-05-22, 13:58

Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:I simply cannot figure out how exactly this suffix can add to the meaning of an adverb without being used.

What do you mean by 'without being used'? :hmm:


It means I'm just wondering why the possessive affix is used here. Would a possessive affix have the least thing to do with the meaning of "in terms of xx" or "from a xx perspective"? :shock:

(btw. Ms Finnish subforum Moderator: :wink:
Do you know if anyone from your circle could give some advice on the question I posted in the Finnish subforum (Please forgive & help to correct my bad Finnish, thank you)? I really hope I could get help from any Finns who live abroad.. Especially on the use of YLE-DL. :P

I simply feel shocked that NONE of the online Finnish proxies
https://www.proxyhub.me/en/fi-free-proxy-list.html
http://free-proxy.cz/en/proxylist/count ... l/ping/all
passes the proxy checker test:
https://hidemyna.me/en/proxy-checker/
while for bypassing geoblockings from almost all other countries I tried with, including but not limited to Latvia, I can find at least a small bunch of working proxies.. But just NO luck for Finnish proxies..
Proxy_Checker.png

Sorry for straying off here, but if you know anyone who could help that'll be much appreciated. Thanks!)
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2019-05-22, 14:39

Linguaphile wrote:
Edit:
That info led me to do another search and I found some interesting things.
Dialect variation for "ajaldasa" with suffixes -ldes, -ldase, -llasa, -llase:
aaldes (Central: Põltsamaa)
ajaldase (Peipsiäärne: Iisaku)
ajallasa (northeastern: Kuusalu, Haljala, Viru-Nigula)
ajallase (northeastern: Lüganuse)

And even a couple of -ldasi suffixes from Torma:
meeleldasi meele järgi
aruldasi parajalt
Although presumably aruldasi is related to haruldane, and if so then it isn't formed from the ablative, since the -lda would just be part of the stem. But that meeleldasi though.... :D


Ooh, nice! :y:

stordragon wrote:It means I'm just wondering why the possessive affix is used here. Would a possessive affix have the least thing to do with the meaning of "in terms of xx" or "from a xx perspective"? :shock:

It just shows whose X we're talking about. Kooltani = my size, kooltasi = your size, kooltansa = his/her/its size. Using the 3rd person suffix for everyone doesn't make sense if you think about it, but there's a similar tendency of fossilising the form even in Finnish. Moreover, possessive suffixes behave in weird ways in Uralic languages, that's definitely a trend. :D If I remember it right, there was some language in Siberia that used what once were possessive suffixes to form conditionals.

btw
Do you know if anyone from your circle could give some advice on my question in the Finnish subforum? I really hope I could get help from any Finns who live abroad.. Especially on the use of YLE-DL. :P

Sorry, but I don't currently know any Finns living abroad. The ones who used to have moved back here, and I don't think they cared for Yle Areena. :?

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby stordragon » 2019-05-22, 14:58

Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:It means I'm just wondering why the possessive affix is used here. Would a possessive affix have the least thing to do with the meaning of "in terms of xx" or "from a xx perspective"? :shock:

It just shows whose X we're talking about. Kooltani = my size, kooltasi = your size, kooltansa = his/her/its size. Using the 3rd person suffix for everyone doesn't make sense if you think about it, but there's a similar tendency of fossilising the form even in Finnish. Moreover, possessive suffixes behave in weird ways in Uralic languages, that's definitely a trend. :D If I remember it right, there was some language in Siberia that used what once were possessive suffixes to form conditionals.

Thank you for the clarification Naava :D hm, I'll need to find some use cases & think it over. And thanks to @Linguaphile, this is HUGE & informative, thank you:-)

Naava wrote:
stordragon wrote:btw
Do you know if anyone from your circle could give some advice on my question in the Finnish subforum? I really hope I could get help from any Finns who live abroad.. Especially on the use of YLE-DL. :P

Sorry, but I don't currently know any Finns living abroad. The ones who used to have moved back here, and I don't think they cared for Yle Areena. :?

OK it's no problem, let me find a workaround then. Thanks anyway. :lol:
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Hvat krevst fyri at kunnast við aðrar mentanir? Tað er fyrst og fremst teirra mál!(á føroyskum)
Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
Būtina imtis neatidėliotinų priemonių nykstančioms kalboms apsaugoti nuo išnykimo;nes kalbinė įvairovė,mano nuomone,yra ne mažiau svarbi nei biologinė!(lietuviškai)

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby ainurakne » 2019-05-23, 16:24

Linguaphile wrote:pisitasa gradually, little by little
Hah... I always thought -tasa in pisitasa comes from tasakesi. :lol:

I never thought to compare it to alatasa - another quite common word where -tasa definitely doesn't mean tasakesi.


stordragon wrote:HOWEVER.. my understanding is "kellegi/millegi poolest" is more like "from xx's perspective" or "in terms of xx" so the possessive affix hypothesis might not be very convincing.
väriltänsä -> oma värvilt = oma värvi poolest ~ by one's color, by its color

Sounds completely logical to me.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-05-23, 16:55

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:pisitasa gradually, little by little
Hah... I always thought -tasa in pisitasa comes from tasakesi. :lol:

I never thought to compare it to alatasa - another quite common word where -tasa definitely doesn't mean tasakesi.

Actually, I did as well, until I saw it while looking for other words that fit this pattern.... I almost even took it off the list because of that. I mean, there's even the word tasapisi too! I'm not sure whether the ending of pisitasa actually has anything to do with the affix, but it seemed to fit the pattern well enough. It's an interesting one because both etymologies seem plausible.
Or maybe it started out as only tasapisi but then pisitasa developed by analogy with the words that have the suffix? That's a total guess, since I don't even have any evidence that tasapisi is older than pisitasa. But I could imagine something like that happening.

ainurakne wrote:
stordragon wrote:HOWEVER.. my understanding is "kellegi/millegi poolest" is more like "from xx's perspective" or "in terms of xx" so the possessive affix hypothesis might not be very convincing.väriltänsä -> oma värvilt = oma värvi poolest ~ by one's color, by its color


Sounds completely logical to me.

To me as well. Also, your use of "oma" there also makes me realize that's a logical explanation for why it is always fossilized as a 3rd person ending... that in Estonian it is meant to refer to oma, not tema.

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby ainurakne » 2019-05-24, 7:32

Linguaphile wrote:Actually, I did as well, until I saw it while looking for other words that fit this pattern.... I almost even took it off the list because of that. I mean, there's even the word tasapisi too! I'm not sure whether the ending of pisitasa actually has anything to do with the affix, but it seemed to fit the pattern well enough. It's an interesting one because both etymologies seem plausible.
Or maybe it started out as only tasapisi but then pisitasa developed by analogy with the words that have the suffix? That's a total guess, since I don't even have any evidence that tasapisi is older than pisitasa. But I could imagine something like that happening.
Ah, yes... tasapisi. I guess, then pisitasa could be just a flipped version of the word. After all that's not so uncommon in Estonian (e.g. maailm - ilmamaa).

To me, tasapisi sounds way more logical, while pisitasa sounds like the same thing said in a fancier way.
But I could be wrong, though.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2019-05-24, 7:51

ainurakne wrote:
stordragon wrote:HOWEVER.. my understanding is "kellegi/millegi poolest" is more like "from xx's perspective" or "in terms of xx" so the possessive affix hypothesis might not be very convincing.
väriltänsä -> oma värvilt = oma värvi poolest ~ by one's color, by its color

Sounds completely logical to me.

Finnish has also värinsä puolesta with the possessive suffix there. IMO it makes sense that if you drop the possessive suffix, you add oma so that you don't lose the reference to who we're talking about.

ainurakne wrote:After all that's not so uncommon in Estonian (e.g. maailm - ilmamaa).

Really? :o I didn't know this!

//edit: I googled "oman värinsä puolesta" and found some examples of that being used, too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-06-28, 22:52

hardalt religiously, devoutly, devotedly
hiilgeaeg heyday, high point, brightest period
kui valatult sobima to fit like a glove (lit. to fit as if poured) (= nagu valatud, etc.)
mõrkjas acrid, rancid, somewhat bitter
nõgine sooty, smutty, grimy
pudulojus small livestock
põhk straw, bedding, litter
saagikas high-yield (of crops), bumper (crop), fruitful, productive
simman village dance, village hop

Linguaphile
Posts: 2016
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-08, 1:01

I'm writing this out a little differently this time. The first line in each set is the word I looked up in the dictionary (so, it would normally be the word I'd write in this thread). The second line is the word I came across that caused me to look it up in the first place, which is often more interesting than the dictionary word that I usually list here. The third line is the morphology, i.e., how to get from the meaing of the word in line 1 to the meaning of the word in line 2.

aukartustäratav awe-inspiring, imposing
    aukartustäratavalt adverb: imposingly
    au|kartust|äratava+lt
okastraat barbed wire (lit. thorn-wire)
    okastraadikerad nominative plural: round bales of barbed wire
    okas|traadi|kera+d
nutsak small bundle, small ball of something
    riidenutsakut partitive plural: of a balled-up bundle of clothing
    rii[d]e|nutsaku+t
kägardama to crush
    kokkukägardatud participle: crushed together, ground together
    kokku|kägarda+tud
vare remains of a burned or fallen building
    taluvaremetest elative plural: from the farm ruins
    talu|vareme+te+st
tõekspidamine conviction, belief
    tõekspidamisi partitive plural: of the convictions/beliefs
    [d]e+ks|pidami[ne]+si


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