Romani

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-01-18, 1:37

I've been wanting to make an another post on this topic for such a long time, but never actually did it. I've decided to translate some more songs...

This time, I thought it'd be interesting to also include the text in both Vlax Romani (the original text of the song) and Balkan Romani (the variety spoken here). I've also decided to include both the original and the "Gypsy Jazz" versions, whichever one prefers. And what better to start with, than the "Romani Anthem" itself:

1. Đelem Đelem [I went, I went]

Original version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcyZS2plxvk
Gypsy Jazz version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeVL0BSvSFU

Đelem, đelem, lungone dromesa,
Maladilem šukare rromensa (original)
Maladilem čorore rromensa (Gypsy-Jazz)

Đelem, đelem, lungone dromesa,
Maladilem baxtale rromensa.

Aah, rromale, aah čhavale!

Ala voliv lake kale jakha,
Kaj si gugle sar duj kale drakha.

Aah, rromale, aah čhavale!


Ḱindem laḱe lolo dikhlo tursko,
Ni volil man, ačhel latar pusto.

Ḱindem laḱe lolo dikhlo tursko,
Ni manǵel man, ačhel latar pusto.

Aah, rromale, aah čhavale!
Geljum, geljum, dugone dromeja,
Sretningjum šukare romenca
Sretningjum čorole romenca



Geljum, geljum, dugone dromeja,
Sretningjum bahtale romenca.

Aah romale(n), aah čhavale(n)!

Ala volinava (mangava) lakere kale jakha,
Kaj tane gudle sar duj kale drakha.

Aah romale(n), aah čhavale(n)!

Ḱingjum lake loli mahrama turski,
Na volinela man, ačhela latar pusti.

Ḱingjum lake loli mahrama turski,
Na mangela man, ačhela latar pusti.

Aah romale(n), aah čhavale(n)!
I went, I went, (along) a long road,
I met beautiful people (Roma),
I met poor people (Roma),



I went, I went, (along) a long road,
I met happy people.

Aah people (Roma), aah children!

Aah (how much) I love her black eyes,
Which are (as) sweet as two black grapes.

Aah people (Roma), aah children!

I bought a red turkish kerchief for her,
(but) she doesn't love me.. (so it) was left abandoned.

I bought a red turkish kerchief for her,
since she doesn't love me.. it was left abandoned.

Aah people (Roma), aah children!


I've also decided to give a shot to something Balkan on this thread, and I've recently translated an Arli classic, so I thought about also posting it in here as well. Romani songs are very beautiful and full of soul. Many of them have nice lyrics, about which people don't even have an idea. Here is an old ballad:

2. Bašal mange, gitaro [Play for me, o guitar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNmCeTvK_s4

Bašal mange gitaro,
Mo vogi tharo-i tano.
To bašalibe te resel dži olate,
Te marel o lakere vudareste.
Ked ka šunel man tuja sar giljavava,
Tega me džanava kad ola anava.


Ked ka avel oj,
Ked ka šunel i gili,
Sa ka phravgjol.

Hem mo vilo,
O lakere čumjondar,
Ka takjol, ked ka rakjol.

Mo kamipe mangipastar,
Ka dživgjol,
Mo vogi ka dživgjol.

Bašal mange gitaro,
Bašalibe rovavno.
O asva so perena ko mutno pajnja,
Rakje na dikjon keda isi ćerejnja.
Bašal gitaro, me jakhja phravde tane,
Dži ked oj avel, mo vogi te iranel.
Play for me, o guitar,
My soul is burning.
May your song (lit. playing) reach her,
May it (the song) knock on her door.
When she hears me singing with you,
Then I know when I'm bringing her.
[I understand this part as "then I'll know when I'll be able to bring her (the girl) with me"]

When she comes,
When she hears the song,
Everything will become open (everything will burst out)

And my heart,
Will get warm,
From her kisses, when the night comes.

My desire from love,
Will awaken (lit. revive)
My soul will awaken.

Play for me, o guitar,
A weeping song.
The tears which fall in the blurry water,
Aren't visible at night, when there are stars.
Play, o guitar, my eyes are open,
Until she comes to return my soul.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-01-25, 5:32

Thanks for these songs! I recently posted a Greek Romani song on another thread. Maybe I should try doing that for the song I'd posted, too.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-01-25, 5:36

vijayjohn wrote:Thanks for these songs! I recently posted a Greek Romani song on another thread. Maybe I should try doing that for the song I'd posted, too.


Yes, sure! I'd love to see that. :D
I guess Greek Roma also speak dialects belonging to the Balkan group, however they seem quite distant from the Balkan dialects spoken here (Arli, Bugurdži, etc.)
I've listened to some Greek Romani songs myself and I gotta say sometimes I struggled to understand.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-03, 18:36

This one I'm pretty sure is in Vlax Romani but from Greece; it's from Athens, and there are some varieties of Vlax Romani spoken in that area if I remember correctly. It's a song called (I guess) "Dzastar amenge dur," and the singer's (Greek) name is Kostas Pavlidis. I basically got the lyrics from here and attempted a translation into English, but my translation doesn't make a whole lot of sense. :? Any idea what it should actually be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8uAnPBZ-bY

Dzastar amenge dur,
Konik te na džanel,
Konik te na dikhel.
Drab kerko mek te pijel!

Te vušta man phabarde man,
Xale mange šukar jakha,
Jag but bari dije man!
In džanav so te kerav.
You go far away from us,
So no one knows,
So no one sees.
May (s)he drink bitter medicine!

If only those lips of mine had burned me,
Eaten beautiful eyes for me,
Given me a very big fire!
I don't know what to do.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-03, 19:26

Oh, I've heard this song before. I was the one who transcribed the lyrics into that alphabet.
I'm also pretty sure this is Vlax. Especially "džastar", this had always confused me, and is probably one of the reasons why I never attempted to translate it. I am never sure which person it is, which time, tense, etc. I go, you go, we go? "-tar" is just the ablative suffix and I don't know how it works with a verb like this. I've seen it in the Hancock's Handbook of Vlax Romani though, although I've never heard it being used here. I guess it's a Vlax-specific thing.

Some suggestions: The word "drab" means "poison", that's the only meaning I've heard it used as. I've seen it in some Vlax dictionaries to mean "medicine", however, in here, especially among Balkan Roma, but even Vlax as well, "poison" is the only meaning of the word - for "medicine" we use the Slavic loanword "leko" (you may hear it in songs as well; example [Vlax]: "mi romni nasvali, thaj mo cikno čhavoro; leko lenge nane, ko suno me dikhljum" - I may translate this song once as well).

"mek" + "te" seems like a very strange combination to me :hmm: I could see one or the other being used, but at the same time appears quite strange. Maybe it's just to my ears.

"Te vušta man phabarde man" - the word "te" in here may be interpreted in a lot of ways. Besides "if", it could also mean "may", as if "may they burn/had burned me".. :hmm: :hmm: Alternatively, it also may be a common contraction of "tire" (yours) - so that it means "your lips had burned me", that's the way I interpreted it when I first heard it.

Even alternatively, in the original transcription, it was written as "ke" ("Ke vousta man pabardeman"), however I heard it as "te" and that's why I transcribed it that way. If it's indeed "ke", then it could, again, be interpreted in a lot of different ways.

"Xale mange" - "They ate me" = full sentence: "These beautiful eyes had eaten me", that's my interpretation.

"Jag but bari dije man!" - "She had given me a big fire" ? "That gave me a big fire" ? :hmm: :hmm:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-04, 5:04

cHr0mChIk wrote:Especially "džastar", this had always confused me, and is probably one of the reasons why I never attempted to translate it.

It means 'you go away' (or maybe 'we go away', but a second person subject makes the most sense in this context).
The word "drab" means "poison", that's the only meaning I've heard it used as. I've seen it in some Vlax dictionaries to mean "medicine", however, in here, especially among Balkan Roma, but even Vlax as well, "poison" is the only meaning of the word - for "medicine" we use the Slavic loanword "leko" (you may hear it in songs as well; example [Vlax]: "mi romni nasvali, thaj mo cikno čhavoro; leko lenge nane, ko suno me dikhljum" - I may translate this song once as well).

Okay, thanks!
"mek" + "te" seems like a very strange combination to me :hmm: I could see one or the other being used, but at the same time appears quite strange. Maybe it's just to my ears.

It seems common enough in Kalderash (Vlax), I guess...https://books.google.com/books?id=qHGoi ... 22&f=false.
"Te vušta man phabarde man" - the word "te" in here may be interpreted in a lot of ways. Besides "if", it could also mean "may", as if "may they burn/had burned me".. :hmm: :hmm: Alternatively, it also may be a common contraction of "tire" (yours) - so that it means "your lips had burned me", that's the way I interpreted it when I first heard it.

Even alternatively, in the original transcription, it was written as "ke" ("Ke vousta man pabardeman"), however I heard it as "te" and that's why I transcribed it that way. If it's indeed "ke", then it could, again, be interpreted in a lot of different ways.

But there must be some reason why man is repeated twice, and IIRC in Vlax, it can also be used to mean 'my' in some contexts.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-04, 5:24

vijayjohn wrote:But there must be some reason why man is repeated twice, and IIRC in Vlax, it can also be used to mean 'my' in some contexts.


In Balkan Romani, doubling the pronoun is very common, in the case of:
"Man isi man" = "I have"
"Tut isi tut" = "You have"
Perhaps it could be the same? :hmm:

vijayjohn wrote:It means 'you go away' (or maybe 'we go away', but a second person subject makes the most sense in this context).


What if it's "We go away from us", in the context of "We go away from each other" ?
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-04, 21:06

cHr0mChIk wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:But there must be some reason why man is repeated twice, and IIRC in Vlax, it can also be used to mean 'my' in some contexts.


In Balkan Romani, doubling the pronoun is very common, in the case of:
"Man isi man" = "I have"
"Tut isi tut" = "You have"
Perhaps it could be the same? :hmm:

I don't think I've ever heard of that, but maybe!
vijayjohn wrote:It means 'you go away' (or maybe 'we go away', but a second person subject makes the most sense in this context).


What if it's "We go away from us", in the context of "We go away from each other" ?

Then wouldn't it be penge? I can't say for sure, though. :P

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-04, 21:15

vijayjohn wrote:Then wouldn't it be penge? I can't say for sure, though. :P


No, "pe" / "penge" - that would only be used for 3rd person. I believe.

vijayjohn wrote:I don't think I've ever heard of that, but maybe!


In the languages of the Balkan Sprachbund, the double object is very common, I suppose this is the case of that. :hmm:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-04, 21:28

cHr0mChIk wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Then wouldn't it be penge? I can't say for sure, though. :P


No, "pe" / "penge" - that would only be used for 3rd person. I believe.

But here it isn't third person: džas sàko pe pesko drompe trin riga, right?
In the languages of the Balkan Sprachbund, the double object is very common, I suppose this is the case of that. :hmm:

It is?

Can you give me an example of that in Serbian? Because I'm not sure I'm familiar with it even in Balkan languages other than Romani.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-04, 22:15

vijayjohn wrote:But here it isn't third person: džas sàko pe pesko drompe trin riga, right?


Oh, sure, :hmm: perhaps this is something different in Vlax and Balkan.. :hmm:
But, I thought it's something similar to how: "ka dikha amen" = "we will see each other" (greeting).
The Reflexives in the dialect I speak function this way.
I remember = Me setinava man
You remember = Tu setinava tut
He remembers = Ov setinela pe
She remembers = Oj setinela pe

The "pe" is only used for the 3rd person.

I hope I didn't mix something up :hmm: 😅

vijayjohn wrote:Can you give me an example of that in Serbian? Because I'm not sure I'm familiar with it even in Balkan languages other than Romani.


Yeah, sure, although Serbian isn't the prime example of that.
However, in the prizrensko-timočki dialect (torlački), you may hear examples such as: "da te vidim tebe"

Languages which are more known for it are Macedonian and Bulgarian, or non-Slavic languages such as Romanian and Albanian.

An example of it is also the Macedonian/Bulgarian example:
"Go gledam Georgi" = "I'm looking at George"

gogledamGeorgi
himI lookGeorge

literally: "I'm looking at him, the George"

Or, the same sentence in Romanian and Albanian:
"Îl văd pe Gheorghe."
"E shoh Gjergjin."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sp ... c_pronouns
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-04, 22:21

I just looked up reflexive pronouns in Ian's Handbook of Vlax Romani, and it says:

"The pes/pen forms are reflexive, and mean 'himself/herself, themselves;' they cannot occur in the subject case. Some speakers use pes for both pes and pen, while others use pe(s) in all singular and pe(n) in all plural reflexive constructions, thus arakhav pe 'I behave myself' (instead of arakhav ma(n)). These uses should be avoided."

So I think you're right, although people do sometimes use pe for first or second person, and I just thought it was more common/accepted to use it to mean 'myself', 'yourself', 'ourselves', or 'yourselves' more often than it is. :)

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-04, 23:22

So after everything, to try to make some more sense out of it, this would be my translation/interpetation:


Džastar amenge dur,
Khonik te na džanel,
Khonik te na dikhel.
Drab kerko mek te pijel!

Te vušta man phabarde man,
Xale mange šukar jakha,
Jag but bari dije man!
In džanav so te kerav.
We are going away from each other (separating),
So that nobody knows,
So that nobody sees.
May I drink bitter poison!

Your lips had burned me,
Those beautiful eyes had eaten me,
I've been thrown in a big fire,
I don't know what to do.


Basically, I have seen some dialects using always the "3rd person form" as an infinitive, with "te", without conjugating it:
"Me mangav te dikhel" instead of "dikhav".
That's why I thought that perhaps in the sentence "mek te pijel" - it could be referring to 1st person instead of 3rd :hmm: that's my interpretation, either that, or something like "may the bitter poison be drunk" (although I suppose the verb would in that case be "pijol" :hmm: :hmm: )
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-09, 1:03

Anyway, to get back to the post I actually initially wanted to write, but never got to writing it. Either from the lack of time, or will, etc.

I don't even know who is still following this thread. I'm guessing @vijayjohn is, although, neither of us are really active. I guess I'm the most active here, since I'm the one which is currently mostly engaging in Romani language at the moment. I'm guessing others are focusing on other languages (but even I don't really write all that often).

cHr0mChIk wrote:As you can see, my Romani improved a lot in the past year :lol: :lol: :lol:


I have no idea why I wrote "past year", when it's only been a few months after the most recent post I made. :D I suppose I just have a really awful sense of time.

When I started writing in this Romani thread, my Romani was really kinda broken and my knowledge was kinda fragmentary... When I started to be the Imam's substitute at my local Mosque, I met a lot of Roma, and spoke Romani with them almost daily, so I improved it a lot in those months. That's why I started adding corrections and additions to my old posts from time to time.

As I was going back and reading the old posts, I kept seeing more and more stuff I'd change/add.

One of the first things is the Vlax Romani text you wrote, which I kinda attempted to translate into Balkan Romani (more specifically, Arli), which I've done twice, of which, the 2nd was way better and more accurate.

I was thinking to analyze that text right now and write a bit about it, and perhaps make a 3rd (I suppose, the final) version, with some explanations.

I wanted to do it sentence by sentence.

Vlax
(i.e. Kalderaš)
Balkan
(i.e. Arli)

Le Trin PhralaO Trin Phrala

  • The definite articles function differently in Vlax and Balkan dialects. The Plural definite article in Nominative is "(l)e" in Vlax Romani, and "o" in Balkan Romani.
► Show Spoiler


Trin phrala sas, kaj tradine ande e ľumja te šaj kerenas penge ciřa love.Trin phrala sine, kaj putujine ande e sveto, te šaj te ḱerena penge hari pare.

  • The "sas" vs "sine" - a difference in the "Imperfect" tense.
► Show Spoiler

  • "Tradine" vs "putujine" - it's just a vocabulary difference. The verb "tradinel" is not used in Balkan Romani. One may use a Slavic loanword "putujinela", or, alternatively, the verb "to go" - "džala"; or "phirela", which essentially means "to walk".
  • "ľumja" vs "sveto"; "ciřa/ceřa" vs "hari"; "love" vs "pare" are just some of the vocabulary differences.
► Show Spoiler


Kana sas te džantar, phendjas e kavrenge o maj phuro phral.Ked sine te džana, phenǵa e (j)avrenge o naj-phuro phral.

  • "Kana" vs "ked(a)" is just a vocabulary difference, while "sas" vs "sine" had already been discussed before.
  • Although the sentence in Balkan Romani was the direct equivalent/translation of the Vlax sentence, perhaps "Ked vajľani sine te džana" would have sounded better in the Balkan (Arli) dialect.
  • The construction "džantar" wouldn't be common for Balkan dialects, therefore, they'd just use a Present tense "džana".

Ašunen, me phralale, džas sako pe pesko drom pe trin riga, thaj pa jekh berš te arakhadjovas pe sa godo drom kaj sam akana!Šunen, me phralale, dža svako pe peskoro drom pe trin riga, hem, palo jek berš te arakha (j)amen ko odova drom, kaj sijam akana!

Le kaver phrala dine pengo svato te gadja si te keren.O (j)aver phrala dinǵe lengere lafija te adava isi te ḱeren.


  • In Balkan Romani, when a word ends with a vowel, and the next one starts with a vowel as well, a "j" is often inserted inbetween, in pronunciation. Similarly to the British Intrusive "r". That is where the "j" in brackets come from.
    For example: "Ov dinǵa (j)amen." - "He gave us... (something)"

I hope this post wasn't much of a mess. I tried not to make it too long. If anyone is interested, I may continue, and compare the 2nd paragraph as well, however, this is it for tonight.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-15, 19:36

A little bit more of Balkan Romani song translations:

1. Te mange man hari barem [If you only loved me a bit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdWHIdOyrcI

Odobor sigate taro jek puti but meningjan tut.
O berša so nakhlje tuja, našti pendžarava tut.
Odobor sigate taro jek puti but meningjan tut.
O berša so nakhlje tuja, našti pendžarava tut.

Probinava te ovel o naj-šukar amenge,
Rovava hem tut molinava barem hari man te šune.

Refren:
Te mange man hari barem, javer ka ovel.
Nane mancar agjar šudro lafi te kerel.
Pišmani sijum, pišmani, ah ka phajrovav.
So kergjum, odobor dukhavdo te ovav?

2x
You've changed so quickly and suddenly.
All these years being together… but I cannot recognise you.
You've changed so quickly and suddenly.
All these years being together… but I cannot recognise you.

I am striving to make it the best for both of us,
I am crying and begging you to listen to me at least for a bit.

Chorus:
If you only loved me a bit at least, it would go differently.
You wouldn't speak with me so coldly.
I am regretful.. so regretful… Ah I'll lose my mind,
What have I done, to be this much hurt?

2x



2. Ah, mo vilo [Ah, my heart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnw--OKIFiw

Pala tute me phirava,
Me jakhendar asva perena...
Tu da mangeja, teri te ovav,
Ala šuneja tere manuša.

Ref.:
Ah mo vilo, ah mo vilo,
Dukhal man, sar toro.
Bizi tute, dukhal man mo vilo.

Celo rat bešeja, našti soveja,
Me vušta mangeja te čumineja.
Celo rat bešeja, našti soveja,
Po telefoni mange man te šuneja.

Ref.
2x.
I am walking behind you,
Tears drop from my eyes...
You would want me to be yours,
But you listen to your people.

Chorus:
Ah, my heart, ah my heart,
Aches me, like yours.
Without you, my heart aches.

Up all night, you cannot sleep,
You want to kiss my lips.
Up all night, you cannot sleep,
You want to hear me on the phone.

Chorus.
2x


The first song is obviously clear Macedonian Arli Romani. Arli is also spoken in Serbia and Bulgaria, it's the same dialect, however it's recognizable from which country it is because of some phonological differences.
However, the second song is from Bulgaria, I reckon it's "Sofia Erli Romani", however, this has some really strange sentence constructions.

For example, in Arli Romani (and most other dialects I believe), when a verb is used with "našti", it has to be indicative - therefore it's "našti te sovav" and not "našti sovava." Saying "našti sovava" sounds like broken Romani in here.

Also, the final "a" is removed with indicative verbs, so - "te čumine" and "ka čumine", instead of "te/ka čumineja"... This, once again sounds like broken Romani.

When I played this song to my Roma friends they laughed and they said that Sofia is a "peasant" and doesn't speak Romani properly.. :lol: they say she's so "gadžikanized" / "bulgarianized" and doesn't know her own language.
They think that these are grammatical mistakes that she's making, however I'm unsure whether these are indeed mistakes or just a different dialect.

Another difference from this and "standard" Arli is the possessive pronouns, in Arli, the long forms are "mlo, mle"; "tlo, tle"; etc… but she says "moro", "mere"; "toro", "tere"; etc.

(oh, one more thing, ignore the lyrics which are in the video, they are not transcribed properly)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

SamoSamNina
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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-24, 19:30

Pozdrav tari Shutka ki Makedonija!

I haven't been active on these forums in yeeeears but it makes me so happy to see an active thread for Romani! <3 Excuse me while I catch up on all the posts first :D
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

vijayjohn
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-24, 20:06

Mishto avilyan! :)

SamoSamNina
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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-24, 20:46

Zdravo! Mlo anav si Nina thaj me sijum tari Amerika. Akana me bešava ki Makedonija, ki Shutka. Akate me kjerava buti ki jehk organzacija thaj jekh školo thaj me ka ovav akate duj berš. Akana na džanava romane but šukar ama me sikljovava.

So I join the ranks of an American learning Romani :) I'm living in Skopje, in Shutka, and working with a nonprofit organization and a school here. I'll be here two years, and I'm learning Romani from a tutor here who's a native speaker. His dad is a really well-known resource when it comes to Macedonian Romani, but just like other variants, there's no standardization here. There are some 6-7 dialects (my tutor speaks Džambas dialect). Both he and his dad do a lot of interpreting for official events, so they also have a fair grasp of the main dialects here as well as what's at least commonly accepted amongst European Romani dialects, even though there isn't a standard, per se.

For my nerdy linguistic side, I've got the Ronald Lee book as well. My colleague teaches Romani music and language at the local primary school, and he took a look at the book. While I can recognize things in Vlax Romani, my coworker said it's mostly from Hungary on up, and while it might be interesting, isn't of major help to what I'm learning. I'm still going to work through it, as it might help me get an idea of cases (things I haven't gotten to yet). I've got my hands on some materials from my colleagues, and I pester them and some of the teenagers with whom I work sometimes to teach me some things, and I have tutoring 3x/week, but I'm still not to the point of really communicating in Romani yet.

I'm happy to help share what I've learned and anything that might be of interest - I saw an earlier post of someone's about "to be" and such between dialects. From what I've gleaned here so far - not sure if it's across all the dialects in Macedonian or at least the ones I've been exposed to so far:

me sijum
tu sijan
vov/voj si
amen sijam
tumen sijen
ola si
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

vijayjohn
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-25, 3:38

It's great to meet another American learning Romani! Thanks so much for joining! :)

(Sorry for my cryptic messages so far. I'm not really sure what else to say yet :P).

I have the Ronald Lee book, too, by the way (Learn Romani/Das-dúma Rromanes?).

SamoSamNina
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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-25, 14:50

vijayjohn wrote:It's great to meet another American learning Romani! Thanks so much for joining! :)

(Sorry for my cryptic messages so far. I'm not really sure what else to say yet :P).

I have the Ronald Lee book, too, by the way (Learn Romani/Das-dúma Rromanes?).


No worries! I was affected a bit by the error message glitch the other day and couldn't add anything more, but now it seems to be resolved and I can.

Happy to be back! years ago I was active on the BCS forum since I studied that for a few years in undergrad. Excited to interact with people about my new favorite language, though! I read you studied with Ian Hancock a bit? Do you have any feedback about language materials? I know he has a handbook for Vlax Romani which I hope to acquire at some point, but other than that, as I'm sure you know, the plight is really lack of materials. In the few years I'll be here in Skopje, I'm hoping to help my tutor and colleagues who teach Romani to assemble some more stuff, hopefully.

If anyone would like, I have a PDF I scanned of some material they use in school here to help with Romani. My tutor's critiques of it include that it isn't done by a linguist or language teacher so there are some things that are inconsistent, a number of words that aren't really used by anyone, but just tapped because they have an Indic root. Also the author mixes dialects a bit so there's no consistency there too, but as I remind him, us beggars can't be choosers -- I appreciate all language material.

Also I'm a huge language nerd, so I have a playlist of stuff that's a combination of traditional and modern stuff that's popular now - if anyone would like, I'd be happy to assemble some on youtube and share the link.

I'm also happy to help forward on any nerdy linguistic questions to my friends who are language teachers and native speakers, too -- while it may be more specific for Macedonia's dialects, I'm happy to share the resources I have access to!
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer


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