[Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

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langmon
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[Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby langmon » 2018-11-17, 5:49

I started this thread before I rationally learned how to always use brevity instead of non-necessary verbosity. Wasn't able to do it in a purely intuitive way before. From now on [25 Nov 2018], I am able to fully use brevity :), yes.

I think that even the previous very verbose posts do contain some useful information, too. But you have been warned :D.


This is a certain project of mine I already have been sharing with some other people outside of the forum (if you can "share" a project :whistle: :D). So I'd really like to do it here, too.

This "no output without prior input" :wink: log is for logging my progress related to both of this:

- The ability of answering questions on languages that already are on my learning list (but not corrections)

- The ability of answering questions on languages that aren't on my learning list (but not corrections)

It is meant for any of those:
- anything on my learning list, and also English and German
- anything which isn't on my learning list, but there are enough easily accessible resources available, i.e., for example, Russian, Finnish, Catalan, Korean, Czech, Indonesian, Hungarian, Urdu, Haitian Creole, ... (I hope you get the picture :))
- And it is also for languages with not too many easily accessible resources available, like Cherokee and Inuktitut. One should just keep in mind that speaking of those, especially very advanced questions wouldn't be always possible to answer due to the lack of sources that are sufficient and reliable. Having said that, asking questions about them still is Very Possible.

If you are curious why this log isn't meant at all for corrections, I already explained it elsewhere on this forum. Even if I what I wrote was about German in particular.
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:And as for myself theoretically making corrections, in addition to them requiring myself to use German (already mentioned the effect above a short time ago :)), there even would be an additional battery draining factor. They would remind me of school, in addition to requiring a great amount of thinking. Because it is at least easier to know that it simply is possible to say something in a certain way. But to know that something certainly is outside of the scope of Standard German there is a lot of additional thinking required, because for many things, there are several possibilities of saying them.

However, I do want to emphasize that this log is about German, too.

Questions can be asked in any of the following:
English, German, Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, Swahili, Esperanto, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Dutch, Afrikaans and Japanese.

Factors that can facilitate my ability of giving both a more complete and a more non-slow answer:

- Asking in a language that I already have done some advancements with. This easily can be known by reading this learning list:

PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), EO (pre-A1 / B2), FR (B1 / B2), ES (B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1).

In this case, it is especially important to look at whatever I mentioned after, rather than before, the slash. Because this is the Maximum Reading Understanding Ability. If you ask in one of my less advanced languages, then doing so is still Very Possible. However, it also can cause some delay, because I possibly need to look up some words to be even able to understand the question. Still, this isn't a challenge I am not willing to take. And as for my less advanced languages, asking the question using very basic words can help, too :).

- Asking about a language that I already have done some advancements with. This isn't a repetition of the last paragraph :). Not at all. It is about something entirely different. But you can also ask about both of my less advanced languages, and those I didn't even include on my list. I am Fully and Entirely Dead Serious about what I wrote right now. Yes, I really am offering the possibility of asking me questions about languages I do not even know yet. What's more, I am not restricting this offer to the beginner's level either. You can ask questions related to any level, although not all of those would necessarily be able to be answered in the same pace (as in: "speed" :)). Possibly I would need to do some longer research. But again, this isn't a challenge I am not willing to take. Also, I am very grateful of already having a not-so-small experience with doing research like this. Even if some wouldn't really agree to some of my ideas, I'd still like them to know that nothing what I said is what it could seem to some of you.

- Asking questions that aren't too specific, but asking those which are more broad-scope and generic than others.

When I am posting a reply, what I have in mind is any of the following:

- Posting an answer while also citing my sources

- Posting an answer while giving you the possibility to be able to know whether the answer is correct or not, even if sometimes I, in the case of the sources being online, wouldn't link to them because of certain reasons. They can include, for example, a web site being a useful resource, other than it also having a commercial part with a Tricky Sign Up Fine Print that easily can cost 20$ per month, after a "free/1$ trial month". This is just one out of several examples for a possible reason preventing me from providing the link.

- Writing an answer about German as a native of it

- Pointing out that your existing knowledge of a certain language can be used to find out by yourself whether the answer is correct or not, while also telling you how to do it

- Writing a partial answer, in case that I wasn't able to fully unravel that particular language "mystery" :). So I would be giving you some puzzle pieces at least, and you could assemble them by yourself later.

Of course there also could be a few cases where I am unable to provide any answer. I do not promise to be able to answer any particular question. Instead, what I am simply stating is that I do intend to do my very best to be able to do so.

Questions about any language can be asked by PM or by replying to this thread. Although I prefer PM for the purpose of keeping this thread as short and information-dense as possible.

There is one more thing that also can contribute to myself being able to give a both more complete and more non-slow answer. Because of myself doing some Really Major Interlinking between any language I am reading about, and my number one project which is The Language of All Things Communication, providing input for that project (link mentioned in the signature) also can help those creative juices flow some more. Although it isn't required at all to provide any input. You can ask several questions or even many (but not all of them at once :)) for this log without ever providing a single sentence of input on my main project.

Also, in case you do decide to participate there, I'd like you to note that this isn't an "Exchange Trade Business Deal" or anything like that ;). I may be able to produce a lot of output on this Creative Juices log without yourself ever contributing to the other one. And in some cases, I possibly wouldn't be able to answer some questions in this Creative Juices log even if you provided some input elsewhere.


And there is something I'd also like to mention at this point because it has a great importance to me. I'd really like to not include anything in this thread that easily can be controversial :). This is because I'd love this thread to be as pleasant to read for anyone, even if their backgrounds vastly differ.
Last edited by langmon on 2018-12-08, 17:14, edited 2 times in total.
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langmon
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German dialect words, and whether knowing them is helpful for Standard German or not

Postby langmon » 2018-11-20, 20:16

Recently I had a rather interesting conversation about the various dialects of German. More specifically, I spoke to a person called Kevin Moderator, otherwise known as kevin. He agreed to be quoted, and he also agreed to myself mentioning his full name even.

Because I'd like this log to be as multi-purpose as possible, this post simply is like this: The gist of his sayings (rephrased by me for translation purposes) and my response are both provided in English.

And for those who know German too, they simply can click on that Expandable Text Hiding Thingy to read the original PM conversation :).

SomehowGeekyPolyglot: I wonder how useful it is for those who are learning Standard German to also know about various dialect words. This is because they can be included in the speech of those who use Standard German, too, and in fact, they often are actually included.
► Show Spoiler

Kevin Moderator: A monolingual speaker of Swabian can learn Standard German more easily than a monolingual speaker of Mandarin. Many dialect words don't differ that much, and the grammar also is similar.
► Show Spoiler

Sure. This situation is, to some extent, comparable to a Spanish person learning Italian, as opposed to a Spanish person learning Korean.

Kevin Moderator: But as for the dialect words that greatly differ from Standard German, learning them cannot help advancing with Standard German (because they differ greatly from it).
► Show Spoiler

Agreeing on most of it. But there is one situation where I'd say that learning those Entirely Different Dialect Words can help advancing with Standard German. Now why do I even say so :)? This is because when someone is learning a new language, the more context he/she can have, the easier it is to grasp the meaning of the Unknown Knowledge Gap Words.

For example, someone could say "Wenn ich einen Butzastenkl mache, dann gehört das zur gesunden körperlichen Betätigung".

Butzastenkl:Purzelbaum (a somersault; to tumble)

Because not everyone interested in German is learning the very same vocabulary in the very same order (but there is some overlap, no doubt), any of those multi-colored words can be unknown to them. So knowing the meaning of Butzastenkl can help him/her, because knowing it provides additional context. And yes, that example was made up ;), but there are several other real-world-ish ones.

[Side note: what is the most common way of spelling a word like that? Two hyphens, or just one?]

Kevin Moderator: Anyway, pure Standard German isn't spoken anywhere.
► Show Spoiler

As for pure Standard German being spoken nowhere, well... there are several examples of very pure Standard German being spoken. But they are related to some TV shows and so on. (Even if I personally only use other ways of knowing what is going on in the world, and even if ... well, that's 50% off-topic, so stopping now at this point :)).

And as for face to face communications and other situations where Standard German is used, I wonder if you (kevin) would really say that in cases like these, people don't speak pure Standard German. Or is it more of "some do, some don't" to you?

Kevin Moderator: There can be uses of knowing some dialect words for the purpose of communicating with people within the German sprachraum. But these words aren't general-purpose knowledge about German because they are restricted to certain areas.
► Show Spoiler

Agreeing on major parts of it. Just adding that if someone already is inclined to knowing a multitude of languages (as in "being a Jack of Many Trades But Master of None"), he/she just might do the same with some dialects, too. (Without pressuring oneself or anything :D). And as for me, I do intend to deepen my knowledge of German dialects.
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langmon
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Re: [Sort of a log] SomehowGeekyPolyglot's/SGP's Creative Juices Language Question and Answer Research

Postby langmon » 2018-11-24, 16:16

This post is about one specific person's Spanish and French learning situation [not mine]. However, the suggestions being made could be useful for others, too, who are in a similar situation.

French:

[Someone, rephrased by SGP] wrote:Grammar per se isn't difficult. But using the language isn't a walk in the park. It currently isn't possible to have a longer fluent conversation. So a lot of information about French has been learned, but it couldn't be applied too often.


This reminds me of my own situation, even if I am grateful for already being able to speak French. But there still is room for many improvements.

Since you already know Spanish, you could use it as a bridge to French. This is because even if the pronunciation isn't the same, the language itself isn't entirely different at all.

Also, you could start with a few short [FR] sentences first, dropping them in your Mostly English Based Conversations when talking to some people who understand both languages [EN and FR]. Some things can easily pile up as the time goes on.

[Someone, rephrased by SGP] wrote:Related to French, or possibly to both languages:

- There is little difficulty remembering vocabulary.

- It is possible to recognize conjugations in present, past and futures tenses in written form.

- But as for conversations, it is more difficult to recognize them.

- In addition, the present tense is the easiest in conversations, others aren't that easy.


You could do the same thing here, too. I.e. starting by dropping short sentences where tenses other than the present tense are being used. Being able to say them yourself and to recognize them are two interlinked abilities.

[Someone, rephrased by SGP] wrote:And as for Spanish in particular:

It mostly has been self-taught, because of conversations with people who only speak Spanish. It is possible to communicate in it as long as it is a typical subject. A number of errors are being made, but the others still seem to know what one intends to say.


As for this part, there currently isn't anything I am able to add, other than what already has been mentioned maybe.
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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby langmon » 2018-12-30, 12:53

Swahili learning strategy

As for Swahili, maybe a certain niche language learning approach could work for some of you, too. At least it works for me. It is the "most niche" idioma on my list. Don't know anyone with whom I could converse in it. But still I continue to learn it, and there even is some real progress as well.

The introduction of "Teach Yourself Swahili" (the old version by D.V. Perrott) was written by a non-native, more specifically, a consul from Zanzibar IIRC. He/she stated that "Swahili is very easy to learn, in fact, it is the easiest language/among the easiest ones". While this may be just a little bit of a stretch, I still agree with the main message. Almost all verbs are fully (100%) regular. The subjunctive is formed by changing the ending vowel to -e only. Etc. Yes, it has about 10 noun classes, but can get used to them, too.There seems to be something special about Swahili and what I perceive as ease of learning. This may be related to its past, because it started as sort of a creole or an (advanced) pidgin even. In addition, Swahili speakers tend to write just as they would speak, too.

The way I, personally, continue to study Swahili is to give it a special treatment by not including it in the learning list's subset of languages being learned in rotation, being queued or unqueued, and by not pushing the Swahili Pause and Resume Buttons, as I do with the others. Instead, I simply continue to learn it independently from all of them whenever there is some time and a good occasion, as a little leisure activity. Sometimes I also do sing in it.
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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby OldBoring » 2019-01-01, 13:45

Tl;dr

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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby langmon » 2019-01-01, 13:54

OldBoring wrote:Tl;dr

?

Edit: This looked like a typo or anything to me at first.
Then I looked it up.
Was that comment really necessary? If it is "too long so you didn't read it", you also would have the option of not posting any reply at all. But if you do so anyway, it just might come across as an offense (even if I, personally, learned not to jump into premature conclusions a long time ago).
Not everyone has the same language learning goals and sub-goals... so our posts and writing styles do differ.
Last edited by langmon on 2019-01-01, 13:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby OldBoring » 2019-01-01, 13:57

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
OldBoring wrote:Tl;dr

?

It means: too long; didn't read.

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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby langmon » 2019-01-09, 9:24

OldBoring wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
OldBoring wrote:Tl;dr

?

It means: too long; didn't read.

Yes that it its meaning. And I already said something about that in my previous post's edit as well. (Which happened shortly after posting it.)
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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby Saim » 2019-01-09, 11:47

Although OldBoring may not have been that tactful in his comment, you have opened five different logs in this subforum, which isn't really for logs.

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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby langmon » 2019-01-09, 12:08

Saim wrote:Although OldBoring may not have been that tactful in his comment, you have opened five different logs in this subforum, which isn't really for logs.

Now I am trying to understand that one. Because these threads wouldn't really fit into any particular language-specific subforum.
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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-01-12, 13:36

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
Saim wrote:Although OldBoring may not have been that tactful in his comment, you have opened five different logs in this subforum, which isn't really for logs.

Now I am trying to understand that one. Because these threads wouldn't really fit into any particular language-specific subforum.

Usually, people start one thread in the Total Annihilation Challenge subforum and use that as their log.

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Re: [Sort of a log] SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby OldBoring » 2019-01-12, 14:34

You come from language-learners.org, you should know what Total Annihilation Challenge is.


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