[Sort of a log] All Things Communication (previously titled: the language called communication)

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby Naava » 2018-11-13, 19:52

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:The purple mask turtle wouldn't talk like this at all. Not even the Turtle's red-head women would speak in that very girlish and possibly also somewhat childish way.

I'm sorry but I still don't understand your point. Different characters were given different personalities and status and the way they speak reflects that - I don't see how this is unique to TMNT. :|

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-13, 20:03

Naava wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:The purple mask turtle wouldn't talk like this at all. Not even the Turtle's red-head women would speak in that very girlish and possibly also somewhat childish way.

I'm sorry but I still don't understand your point. Different characters were given different personalities and status and the way they speak reflects that - I don't see how this is unique to TMNT. :|


You know, I never said that the very idea of the presence of speech patterns was unique to TMNT :). Maybe you were thinking that this was what I meant the whole time? Even if this really would have been the case: still not having the slightest issue, I really liked writing the analysis. But what I did say is that there are some speech patterns, ways of speech in their specific contexts, that aren't found outside of TMNT.

The same can be said of other series, too. In case this aspect isn't clear enough, you could simply imagine someone dubbing the Adventures of the Gummi Bears with Original TMNT speech taken from the original TMNT cartoon, and dubbing the TMNT with Original Gummi Bears Speech. Now how fake and unauthentic would that be?

In addition, even for those not having watched TMNT, but only having read the comics, would it really be that difficult for them to realize that those Gummi Bears simply pretend to be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby Naava » 2018-11-13, 20:08

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But what I did say is that there are some speech patterns, ways of speech in their specific contexts, that aren't found outside of TMNT.

And what do you think the reason for this could be?

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-14, 7:52

Naava wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But what I did say is that there are some speech patterns, ways of speech in their specific contexts, that aren't found outside of TMNT.

And what do you think the reason for this could be?


Mentioning some of those I can think of, while there also are others, too:

- First, it is the aim of (many/most/all) Cartoon Plot Writers to make something that is rather unique. But there also are counter-examples, like the new Duck Tales Series which intentionally resembles the older one to some extent.

- And more specifically about Villain Fighting Series as the turtles, the makers of any of them have their reasons for not merely imitating other series, like Batman etc. Because they wouldn't be happy about people telling each other all the time, "The makers of the Turtles are nothing but copycats. The only difference between Batman and TMNT is that the latter is about Turtles rather than a bat, but that's all".

- Now even more specifically about the TMNT itself only: As soon as they made a character, as, for example, the Purple Mask Turtle (the one who is into All Things Technology), following the ideas from their Character Draft leads to a unique (not meaning it as a praise or anything, but simply as "something that differs from other things" :)) character with many also unique facets.

- And now, once again, even more specifically about that very character: After they already had "fleshed out" his personality, if they want to "stay authentic within the framework of TMNT", they need to "flesh it out" more and more as they go on writing the plot of new episodes. If the Purple Mask Turtle would start to become a Always Laughing Grinning and Nodding Teenager Who Cares About Nothing Else But His Own Skateboard and How to Perform a Lot of Stunts Using it While Always Trying to Impress all the Girls Out There, then many, many people could easily say: "What the Nunchuck? What happened to Donatello? This isn't even him any more!".

[Important hint: using this phrase, "What the Nunchuck?" instead of another one to express what they easily could say without using any particular phrase that I easily can live without anyway].

On the other hand, if the plot writers do Stick to Their Character Draft Like Glue when continuing to write the plot of new episodes, then this means going deeper and deeper speaking of developing the Purple Mask Turtle's personality, thus leading to an even more unique [factual statement way of expression only] pattern of speech related to him specifically that can be very, very difficult, if not impossible, to be found anywhere else.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-21, 2:31

adventrue wrote: "Are you also able to express many of your thoughts in German, even if you would definitely say that you couldn't do so, speaking of all what is on your mind?"
"Ben je in staat vele gedachten in het Duits uit te drukken, zelfs als je definitief zou zeggen dat je het niet kunt, wat alles wat je bezig houdt aangaat?"

Om eerlijk te zijn zou ik de laatste zin anders formuleren. Ik vind hem zelfs in het Engels ietsje onbeholpen.
The last sentence is quite clumsy even in the original English, I would formulate both the original and the translation differently, to be honest.


Source: https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=407&start=2600#p1125717

Now the sentence which has been quoted in the very beginning of this post was an example sentence written by myself. I.e. it was something I asked about, rather than something I said myself that way. However, I do "admit" to also speak sometimes in a rather similar way.

So I'd like to ask you, adventrue, what exactly makes you feel clumsy about sentences like this? And what would be your advice to someone who feels as if he cannot express himself very clearly if he would shorten his own speech? This is because he (i.e. I...) sometimes isn't able to express himself too easily when there is sort of, you know, "time pressure" in the sense of: "you should say as few words as possible, because otherwise, it will take too long". In situations like these, sometimes they words simply wouldn't flow. In addition to myself also having experienced that in a multitude of cases, all those extra (i.e. additional) words were "needed" by the person listening to even be able to understand what I like to say.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby Ser » 2018-11-21, 6:03

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:And as for the "clumsy" part only, you know... my second foreign language already was Latin. So maybe that's why I sometimes would say such long sentences. You are very welcome to tell me what makes you feel that it is clumsy, and also to tell me any suggestion on how to express myself with fewer words while also being able to still convey the same amount of information :). I'd really like to do whatever I can to maximize the communication experience, because UniLang even became a place where I, sort of, am living, in addition to primarily living outside of the Internet :D.

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:So I'd like to ask you, adventrue, what exactly makes you feel clumsy about sentences like this? And what would be your advice to someone who feels as if he cannot express himself very clearly if he would shorten his own speech? This is because he (i.e. I...) sometimes isn't able to express himself too easily when there is sort of, you know, "time pressure" in the sense of: "you should say as few words as possible, because otherwise, it will take too long". In situations like these, sometimes they words simply wouldn't flow. In addition to myself also having experienced that in a multitude of cases, all those extra (i.e. additional) words were "needed" by the person listening to even be able to understand what I like to say.

Most people don't speak with the level of semantic disambiguation that you insist in speaking with. It just makes the signal-to-noise ratio lower than it is normal in English, to the point I've been finding your posts quite uncanny, as if you were planning to use them to train a future machine learning bot. Doing such a thing would be fine with me actually, I don't mean to discourage you from participating here. Reddit does have its group of so-called "effort posters" who post in particular styles after all (generally for fun).

I don't think you're really interested in changing your manner of speech to something closer to the average, but if semantic ambiguity is of your interest, could I suggest that you study Japanese? Japanese speakers do have the habit of assuming the listener can correctly determine a lot from context, much more so than English (or Spanish) speakers. You'll find they speak in the opposite way you do.

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-21, 6:36

Ser wrote:Most people don't speak with the level of semantic disambiguation that you insist in speaking with.


Well, you aren't the first person pointing out the "level of semantic disambiguation" part to me :).

It's just that at times (this is also related to my neurodiversity but not limited to it), the speech of some others was rather vague to me. Not providing enough inside-the-speech clues for disambiguation. And also, because of having witnessed very many misunderstandings between the different persons (even those without neurodiversity), this at that time deepened my attitude of what one might call semantic disambiguation.

So is that one the major cause of my verbosity in your point of view?

Ser wrote: It just makes the signal-to-noise ratio lower than it is normal in English, to the point I've been finding your posts quite uncanny, as if you were planning to use them to train a future machine learning bot.


Well...should I laugh now? [EDIT... because of a word that sounds rather similar but is written differently] I almostly did. That particular matter could be a bit of a stretch, however, still being very interested in knowing whatever you and others would like to tell me.

Ser wrote:I don't think you're really interested in changing your manner of speech to something closer to the average,


Now why do you say so? Is it because I couldn't entirely make it clear (with enough disambiguation :)) that I do like to do so (in the post you quoted), or because of what else?

Ser wrote: but if semantic ambiguity is of your interest, could I suggest that you study Japanese? Japanese speakers do have the habit of assuming the listener can correctly determine a lot from context, much more so than English (or Spanish) speakers. You'll find they speak in the opposite way you do.


Japanese is among the languages I study.
And looking at this aspect can be of additional help, too.
But right now, I am mainly focusing on reducing verbosity when it comes to English and German.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-22, 7:57

linguoboy wrote:[A symbolic and non-verbatim quote representing several occasions where linguoboy pointed out that SGP also could say something with fewer words without loss of information being conveyed]


In my current post, I am addressing everyone who has the point of view that sometimes I could express myself in a better way, i.e. using fewer words, without any loss of information being conveyed. But first and foremost, I am speaking to linguoboy right now. And by the way, I, myself also do share the point of view I have just mentioned. It's just that I am still figuring out how to do it the other way.

So whoever would like to do so is very welcome to tell me how to express myself in a better way, i.e. using fewer words, while still being able to mention everything that is "needed" for a certain reply of mine in any thread. Either by a general purpose explanation, or by providing specific examples (or even both :)). There is just one thing that wouldn't help, and that would be simply telling me that my style of writing is too verbose, without telling me how exactly to change it. This is because I, myself, also have realized that this verbosity of mine can be reduced, but still looking for some clues.

EDIT: PM input is possible, too.
I wouldn't mention your username unless you explicitly agreed to it.
And I wouldn't quote your message, unless you explicitly agreed to it. Otherwise I would re-phrase it myself for the purpose of mentioning its content only in this thread.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby Ser » 2018-11-22, 16:13

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:So is that one the major cause of my verbosity in your point of view?

It's just that at times (this is also related to my neurodiversity but not limited to it), the speech of some others was rather vague to me. Not providing enough inside-the-speech clues for disambiguation.

Being neurodiverse? I don't know, maybe.

The thing is, I don't think your solution of adding more words helps that much. Most people can correctly guess many of the things you specify (e.g. "inside-the-speech clues", what other kind of clues would I have thought of?), so those details strike people as superfluous.

Even in terms of your intention to avoid misunderstanding, maybe it helps some of the time, but a lot of the time misunderstandings happen at the pragmatic level in the intentions and scripts the listener/reader assumes, based on their personal knowledge of how humans and the world work.

A lot of the time I've misunderstood something is because I've assumed the speaker was being serious and not sarcastic (or vice-versa), because I didn't have the real-world knowledge to understand a reference to a movie or just something someone once said, because I wasn't familiar with the particular style/idiolect the speaker used, because I wasn't familiar with the linguistic expression or idiom itself. Philosophers of language have written a lot about this topic, the actual meaning of sentences often lies in all sorts of disparate things from a complicated world. Nothing verbosity can fix much, without getting annoying and obtrusive anyway.

Consider Wittgenstein's famous quip "I won't say 'See you tomorrow', because that would be like predicting the future, and I'm pretty sure I can't do that". Would you actually go through the trouble of saying "I hope I'll see you tomorrow" because someone could misunderstand it?
Ser wrote: It just makes the signal-to-noise ratio lower than it is normal in English, to the point I've been finding your posts quite uncanny, as if you were planning to use them to train a future machine learning bot.

Well...should I laugh now? [EDIT... because of a word that sounds rather similar but is written differently] I almostly did. That particular matter could be a bit of a stretch, however, still being very interested in knowing whatever you and others would like to tell me.

I was being serious about the machine learning bot thing, it was not a joke.

Ser wrote:I don't think you're really interested in changing your manner of speech to something closer to the average,

Now why do you say so? Is it because I couldn't entirely make it clear (with enough disambiguation :)) that I do like to do so (in the post you quoted), or because of what else?

I got your unambiguous message quite clearly. The thing is, I am inferring that when you ask how you could improve your use of language, you're actually being dishonest. Which is fine by me, by the way.

I'm inferring you're being dishonest from your self-contradicting statements of liking/wanting to improve besides your self-conscious use of verbosity to avoid misunderstandings. You could write normally, but you don't want to because you're apparently afraid people will misunderstand.



Please don't take this post as an outright attack against you. I am assuming you're not a troll and am considering the possibility you're a researcher doing interesting work for machine learning, besides other similar possibilities, or otherwise someone with rather unusual ideas and habits.

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby Vlürch » 2018-11-22, 19:04

Ser wrote:I am assuming you're not a troll and am considering the possibility you're a researcher doing interesting work for machine learning, besides other similar possibilities, or otherwise someone with rather unusual ideas and habits.

Considering he keeps mentioning his "neurodiversity", I think it's just that he has some mental illness that affects his ability to think and write "normally". I've experienced something like that myself (and still do at times), as in not being able to do something that'd be simpler (like not being able to leave out details that are easily inferred from context, or having to go through every possible counterargument in an attempt to "win" arguments that may not have even begun yet; my paranoid ramblings that are forever archived on this forum are proof of that), so I feel sympathetic towards him if that's the case.

And I should also note: SGP, I don't mean any of the above as an insult at you or a judgement on your style of posting or anything. I don't know what kind of "neurodiverse" you are and really don't care because it doesn't matter; people are different, and that's fine. I'll admit your posts can be a bit tiring to read at times, but then that's how most people feel about my posts (except that my posts are often also offensive), so... :P

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-22, 19:13

Vlürch wrote:Considering he keeps mentioning his "neurodiversity", I think it's just that he has some mental illness that affects his ability to think and write "normally". I've experienced something like that myself (and still do at times), as in not being able to do something that'd be simpler (like not being able to leave out details that are easily inferred from context, or having to go through every possible counterargument in an attempt to "win" arguments that may not have even begun yet; my paranoid ramblings that are forever archived on this forum are proof of that), so I feel sympathetic towards him if that's the case.

And I should also note: SGP, I don't mean any of the above as an insult at you or a judgement on your style of posting or anything.


@both of you: I intend to reply to your posts as soon as possible.

But as for the part I just quoted, I'd really like to reply to it before anything else. First, I do believe you when you state that you do not mean any of it as an insult. Just would like to ask if you are doing _yourself_ a favor when writing about that I possibly would have a mental illness. Because you mentioned that you experienced something similar to what I experienced, too. What if those with neurodiversity were the majority, would they/we call those with "neurotypicalness" mentally ill just because of differing from the majority?

To me, it is simply another way of being. And yes, I do keep mentioning my neurodiversity for a few reasons. One of the most major reasons is that I do also care about the feeling of others, i.e. I aim to avoid as many misunderstandings as it is possible to avoid. For similar purposes I also uploaded my photo a few minutes ago.

And by the way, the diagnosis of my neurodiversity (made by a doctor who is an expert in neurology) also does state in a clear, direct and non-ambiguous verbatim way: there is no illness that would even reduce intelligence.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-23, 1:43

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:What if those with neurodiversity were the majority, would they/we call those with "neurotypicalness" mentally ill just because of differing from the majority?

Yep. I don't see the need for asking "what if those with neurodiversity were the majority" as if it were a hypothetical when it already happens in some human societies today (in fact, I would venture to guess quite a lot of human societies).

I currently live an environment where those who I live with - namely my parents - think it is normal, for example, to worry about your children's well-being to the point where they must carry a cell phone that is turned on at all times that they go out of the house except for routine tasks like going to work or checking the mail, even though this is not neurotypical behavior at all. They don't know that's not neurotypical and refuse to believe it if it's pointed out to them. They think it's people who behave otherwise that are both crazy and rare.

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby Vlürch » 2018-11-23, 16:26

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Just would like to ask if you are doing _yourself_ a favor when writing about that I possibly would have a mental illness. Because you mentioned that you experienced something similar to what I experienced, too.

Personally I think the current definition of mental illness is just fine, mainly because not being able to fit in creates suffering for a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. My own inability to fit in is definitely largely caused by my social anxiety, depression, etc. and as a "legacy" of delusions that, even though they're in the past, I haven't come to accept 100% as delusions. For people who don't experience any suffering at all as a result of their mental health-related differences, it may be wrong to call it "mental illness", but AFAIK there's always some suffering caused directly or indirectly by the differences.

That doesn't mean everything that causes people to be unable to fit in is mental illness, obviously, since there are physical illnesses and whatnot as well and cultural differences that lead to discrimination and whatnot, but if the main difference is in the way people perceive the world or think... well, it's officially labelled mental illness and that makes sense to me.

Like, it's kinda personal to me because if my own problems weren't considered "mental illness" and were embraced by society as just "a way of being different" or something, I'd almost certainly be dead already. I mean, if I couldn't have gotten officially declared "unable to work" because of my mental health problems, I'd have found a way to kill myself no matter how hard it would've been (even if I still kind of believe I'm physically unable to kill myself), because I wouldn't be able to work or socialise with people normally in any case. So, I believe the only reason (or at least one of the few reasons) I'm still alive is that I live in a society that recognises certain differences from the norm as mental illness; as recently as my parents' youth, attitudes were much harsher and people were less understanding, and depression for example was kind of considered a part of Finnish culture, and suicide rates were like ten times higher than they are now.

Naturally some Finns have nostalgia for times when everyone was killing themselves, since it feels like yet another part of our culture gone as a result of westernisation, but... like... if recognising mental illness counts as westernisation, then the entire world should be westernised. Russia and Kazakhstan for example still have some of the highest suicide rates in the world because they haven't been "westernised" in this regard, even if they have in some other ways. Just like Finland until mental health came to be taken seriously, and presumably the entire world. Mental health is a serious issue, and that includes accepting that some people will never be mentally healthy and/or "normal" and that it is a problem for them(/us), not merely something like rebelliousness against social norms or whatever as it used to be seen and is still seen as too often.

Maybe I'm being overly melodramatic or whatever, maybe society could function perfectly without the concept of mental illness... arguably a lot of societies throughout history did function just fine even though they didn't have a concept of mental illness, but every society ever has had a concept of what's "normal" and what isn't and what's "acceptable" and what isn't. They've often been seen as one and the same, and personally I consider it a positive change that nowadays it's no longer as strict as that.

Still, mental illness is stigmatised for a reason; there are many mental illnesses that have been proven to increase people's likelihood to engage in violent behaviour (either towards others or themselves). Misconceptions like "all mentally ill people are violent" are harmful and should be reduced through better education (as has already been done in much of the western world), but it shouldn't be replaced with lies like "mentally ill people are just like mentally healthy people" because that'd only create more suffering for mentally ill people since it'd make the entire concept obsolete once again.
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:What if those with neurodiversity were the majority, would they/we call those with "neurotypicalness" mentally ill just because of differing from the majority?

A lot of people whose identity revolves around a specific exclusive religious community often do just that, calling the majority "insane" or other such things while thinking of themselves as the "normal" ones, while their own beliefs would often qualify as delusional and unacceptable by current standards in the societies they live in.

For example: not long ago I was chatting with some American Christian dude who thought that in the near future (when people "return to God's light") it would be not only acceptable but necessary for Christians to kill homosexuals. That used to be the majority view around the world among Christians, and still is among some (mostly small radical sects but also apparently the majority in certain countries, like Uganda), but I'm pretty sure it's diagnosable as some kind of mental illness to think that an invisible dude in the sky wants you to wait for his signal to start killing gays.

And no, I'm not saying the people who say that kind of stuff are likely to ever start actually killing gays. I know they're statistically not likely to do that, and that belief in God or whatever isn't considered a mental illness by itself (even if for some people it is a symptom of a mental illness; I may fit into that group of people), nor is it right to declare all people who believe that gays should be killed as mentally ill because it'd diminish their responsibility for their medieval views, which they may have for any number of reasons ranging from plain ignorance to pure hatred... but that's one of the reasons why it's good that there are experts who diagnose mental illnesses and assess the risks involved on a case-by-case basis, rather than it being up to the masses to just go on witch hunts.

More importantly, there is no unifying trait that is shared by all mentally ill (or "neurodiverse" or whatever) people. What that means is that it is theoretically possible to define a universal human "normal", even if it's not practically possible or worth it because it'd only reveal that even more people are "abnormal" in some way than was previously thought. That's already happening in Finland to some extent, as in things that are just individual variation being suddenly categorised as symptoms of a mental illness. So, logically it'd be best to leave "normal" undefined but define every "abnormality" that causes suffering on a case-by-case basis so that people could get the best quality of help they need.
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:To me, it is simply another way of being.

Sure, but that's what some psychopathic serial killers think think too. The differences between the different "ways of being" are important. If all mentally ill (or "neurodiverse" or whatever) people were lumped together under one category of "neurodiverse" or whatever instead of individual diagnoses based on what the differences from the "norm" are, that could be disastrous for those of us that are not psychopathic serial killers because society could well start associating us with them... just like it used to be in the past, I guess.
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:And by the way, the diagnosis of my neurodiversity (made by a doctor who is an expert in neurology) also does state in a clear, direct and non-ambiguous verbatim way: there is no illness that would even reduce intelligence.

Nobody questioned your intelligence AFAICT. Intelligence is a whole another issue altogether and has no relation to mental health. You know, like, how some of the most ruthless tyrants in history were likely also some of the most intelligent people in history, or at least master manipulators, which demonstrates practical intellect rather than some abstract number like IQ and would today be likely diagnosed as something like narcissistic personality disorder or whatever.

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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-23, 18:54

I did read your whole post right now.
As for the "illness or not" part, not commenting on it further because of some personal aspects you mentioned.
And as for the other part, while I am not follower of the Bible anyway, I am also not commenting on it because I rarely discuss religious subjects like these (even if I have a certain religious background myself, but usually not speaking about it even in a forum where it would be possible under certain circumstances).

Having said that, still intending to reply to the previous posts of you two ASAP.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-23, 19:35

Learning status update:
There already has been enough input for that "Reducing SGP's verbosity" thingy :), both within and outside the forum.
Now it is up to me to apply it more and more.
Still, if there would be any future SGP is Being Too Verbose Example, everybody could PM me or quote it in this very log.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-23, 19:57

Ser wrote:Most people can correctly guess many of the things you specify (e.g. "inside-the-speech clues", what other kind of clues would I have thought of?), so those details strike people as superfluous.


What I meant is that there also are outside-the-speech-clues. Including, but not limited to, referring to "Common Sense". And people do not agree on all of it, even if they agree on some of it.

Even in terms of your intention to avoid misunderstanding, maybe it helps some of the time, but a lot of the time misunderstandings happen at the pragmatic level in the intentions and scripts the listener/reader assumes, based on their personal knowledge of how humans and the world work.


So in order words, no matter if one uses Great Verbosity or Minimal Brevity, the main cause of misunderstandings often can be unrelated to it anyway.

Consider Wittgenstein's famous quip "I won't say 'See you tomorrow', because that would be like predicting the future, and I'm pretty sure I can't do that". Would you actually go through the trouble of saying "I hope I'll see you tomorrow" because someone could misunderstand it?


I wouldn't say the longer one for that reason. Although there are people who don't say "I will do this and that in the future" for entirely other reasons, but this is Outside This Thread's Scope.

I got your unambiguous message quite clearly. The thing is, I am inferring that when you ask how you could improve your use of language, you're actually being dishonest. Which is fine by me, by the way.

I'm inferring you're being dishonest from your self-contradicting statements of liking/wanting to improve besides your self-conscious use of verbosity to avoid misunderstandings. You could write normally, but you don't want to because you're apparently afraid people will misunderstand.


What I personally do perceive with the utmost certainty is:
- Wanting to increasingly improve by reducing verbosity
- And also wanting to use disambiguation wherever it really is needed

Even if these two statements theoretically would contradict themselves per se, I still wouldn't be aware of that because I (if this really was the case) wasn't able to think it through in order to arrive at that conclusion.

So there is a big difference between these two:
- Directy being dishonest
- Saying something that, if one really would think it through, would mean being dishonest, but one didn't think it through yet.


Please don't take this post as an outright attack against you. I am assuming you're not a troll and am considering the possibility you're a researcher doing interesting work for machine learning, besides other similar possibilities, or otherwise someone with rather unusual ideas and habits.


Whenever you have got any question about the perception of people with neurodiversity, you can ask it in This Very Log. Of course I cannot speak for everyone, but I know my own perception, in addition to also having read about the one of, close to saying countless, others.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-23, 20:02

Vlürch wrote:I've experienced something like that myself (and still do at times), as in not being able to do something that'd be simpler (like not being able to leave out details that are easily inferred from context, or having to go through every possible counterargument in an attempt to "win" arguments that may not have even begun yet; [...]


As for me, that Reducing Verbosity Subject was about rationally learning some more about what other people already learned intuitively.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-25, 8:00

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:As for me, that Reducing Verbosity Subject was about rationally learning some more about what other people already learned intuitively.


And in the hindsight, it really was easy.
Nevertheless, it was there for almost three decades (or a bit less, but still...).
Why? Because my age is thirty-something, and I used that way since kindergar[t/d]en maybe.
Last edited by SomehowGeekyPolyglot on 2018-11-25, 8:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-25, 8:24

Handshakes

Babbsagg wrote:Handshake with strangers/professionally. Some follow an old tradition to grab your hand very firmly, considering a "powerless" handshake feeble.

An Englishman who wrote a book explaining the Germans mentioned this, saying they squeeze your hand until you pass out, so this may be a German thing. Don't know if some other nations do the same.


Source: https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=49106#p1069670

Replying here, to avoid anything off-topic there. But why exactly?
► Show Spoiler

This pattern of behavior is also found in Austria:
Some consider a feeble handshake as a "handshake lite".

It isn't called "Händedruck" (sth. like "the pressure of hands") without a reason ;).

There is a token (symbolic) aspect to it. Similar to the token aspect of using some words instead of others.

And to you mods, about this very post:
► Show Spoiler
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Re: [Sort of a log] The language called communication: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of behavio

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-25, 8:43

Prowler wrote:I would totally squeeze the hands of some dudes I'm closer to. It'd be a joke and nothing else... but my hands are small and feeble. :x


Source: https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=49106#p1072434

Unique to you (and some others maybe)?
Or more of a generic Portuguese attitude?
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