Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2018-07-05, 22:43

h34 wrote:(In Süddeutschland gibt es noch andere Varianten.)

Du hast mich gerufen? ;)

Balkon /balˈkoːn/
Beton /ˈbetɔŋ/ (dialect: /ˈbed̥oː/)
Orange /oˈʁɔːʃə/
Croissant /kʁoˈsɔː/
Cousin Vetter ;) (but it would be /kʊˈsɔː/)

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-07-06, 9:06

h34 wrote:Dabei tendiert -a- oft zu [ɔ]:
Orange [-ɑŋʒə] / [-ɔŋʒə]


Wobei es auch Leute gibt (ich weiß nicht, ob das regional ist, glaube aber schon), die es [-aŋ] aussprechen. Das gilt auch für Chance.

Edit: Danke an kevin für den erneuten Hinweis.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2018-07-06, 9:58

"Chance" dann aber schon mit [-aŋsə], nicht mit [ʒ], oder?

Bei mir bleibt die Chance auch in gleichen System wie bei den letzten paar Wörtern:
Chance /ʃɔːs/

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-07-06, 17:38

kevin wrote:"Chance" dann aber schon mit [-aŋsə], nicht mit [ʒ], oder?


Ja, ich hatte vergessen, das zu ändern.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2018-07-06, 18:53

Deine jetzige Version sagt, dass es auch "Orange" mit [-aŋsə] gibt. Wirklich? Das kommt mir noch komischer vor.

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-07-06, 20:21

:oops: So besser?
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2018-07-06, 20:40

Weniger überraschend jedenfalls. Ob das besser ist als eine neue Aussprachemöglichkeit zu lernen, will ich nicht beurteilen. ;)

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Iván » 2018-09-18, 8:10

Hallo! Ich habe ein Video angeschaut, aber ich bin nicht sicher, ob ich die letzte Frage gut verstanden habe. Also, die Frage war: Wurdest du schon mal angepupst? Ich weiß, dass angepupst etwas mit pupsen zu tun hat, aber die Frage kapiere ich nicht.

https://youtu.be/vyB57EsJI_A?t=9m12s
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Yasna » 2018-09-18, 12:42

Iván wrote:Hallo! Ich habe ein Video angeschaut, aber ich bin nicht sicher, ob ich die letzte Frage gut verstanden habe. Also, die Frage war: Wurdest du schon mal angepupst? Ich weiß, dass angepupst etwas mit pupsen zu tun hat, aber die Frage kapiere ich nicht.

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Iván » 2018-09-18, 18:07

:lol:

Das habe zuerst ich verstanden, aber ich könnte nicht glauben, dass eine solche Frage eigentlich gestellt worden war. Danke!
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-10-14, 11:00

Iván wrote::lol:

Das habe zuerst ich verstanden, aber ich könnte nicht glauben, dass eine solche Frage eigentlich gestellt worden war. Danke!

In diesem Video auf türkisch fragt jemand, „Was machst du am liebsten?“ und einige Antworten sind „Joints rauchen“, „pinkeln“, „vielleicht Menschen stalken“, „scheißen“, „sagen wir einfach mal ‚Sahne‘, das heißt...Sex...“ und „bei der Literaturstunde pupsen...wirklich!“. :P

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby langmon » 2018-11-12, 10:38

Auch wenn ich ein deutscher Muttersprachler bin, möchte ich mir hier ein wenig beteiligen :).

Zwar ist es mir leider nicht besonders oft möglich, sprachliche Fehler etc. zu korrigieren (warum, das steht in den zwei Posts von mir in diesem Thread:
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56152&p=1124339 ).

Aber ich möchte trotzdem zumindest ein wenig mitmachen. Wenn es um eine Sprache aus meiner Lern-Liste geht (also alles, was im Profil eingetragen ist, außer der Muttersprache und C2), dann würde ich nicht unbedingt eine Frage stellen, um einfach für mich selbst die Antwort herauszufinden, selbst wenn es mal etwas ist, das ich nicht weiß.

Sondern es geht mir hier mehr um den Aspekt von nützlichem Input. D.h. es handelt sich um etwas, das anderen weiterhelfen kann, die momentan Deutsch lernen.

Das ist schon mal die erste Frage dieser Art: Es gibt Leute in Hamburg, die sich selbst gegenseitig als "Diggah" bezeichnen. Das ist ein Wort, das so etwas wie "Kumpel" ausdrückt, aber es ist in Wirklichkeit etwas vielschichtiger (= enthält mehr als nur diese Bedeutung). Wie würdet ihr ein Wort dieser Art in eure eigene Muttersprache (sofern sie nicht Deutsch ist) übersetzen?

Was mich selbst betrifft, so ist die Antwort, die ich nach einem kurzen Gespräch in einem Niederländisch-Thread gefunden habe, einfach nur, dass ich es gar nicht übersetzen würde, sondern nur erklären.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Ser » 2018-12-26, 22:55

Hi guys, just a question. What type of people pronounce German /ʁ/ as [ʁ] after a short vowel, saying the article "der" as [dɛʁ] and "darf" as [daʁf]? Is this done in a particular region of the German-speaking world, or is it associated with people of a certain socioeconomic status or age, or something else?

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby langmon » 2018-12-27, 4:02

Ser wrote:Hi guys, just a question. What type of people pronounce German /ʁ/ as [ʁ] after a short vowel, saying the article "der" as [dɛʁ] and "darf" as [daʁf]? Is this done in a particular region of the German-speaking world, or is it associated with people of a certain socioeconomic status or age, or something else?


There is more than one way of pronouncing the German R.
But I for one couldn't restrict any of them to any particular region.

[en.wikipedia . org/wiki/German_language#Consonants] wrote:/r/ has three allophones in free variation: [r], [ʁ] and [ʀ]. In the syllable coda, the allophone [ɐ] is found in many varieties.


There are different factors that can play a role. Like someone growing up in this Bundesland, then moving to that one, being a bilingual speaker of German and [Polish / Italian / Russian / ...], etc.

Some might even pronounce the R a bit differently than many others in their particular Bundesland because of learning Spanish or Italian, or because they simply like the sound of the rolled R. There are some real-world examples as well, no matter if those people are doing it all the time or sometimes only.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-27, 14:00

Ser wrote:Hi guys, just a question. What type of people pronounce German /ʁ/ as [ʁ] after a short vowel, saying the article "der" as [dɛʁ] and "darf" as [daʁf]? Is this done in a particular region of the German-speaking world, or is it associated with people of a certain socioeconomic status or age, or something else?

Where did you hear that?
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Ser » 2018-12-28, 22:49

Car wrote:
Ser wrote:Hi guys, just a question. What type of people pronounce German /ʁ/ as [ʁ] after a short vowel, saying the article "der" as [dɛʁ] and "darf" as [daʁf]? Is this done in a particular region of the German-speaking world, or is it associated with people of a certain socioeconomic status or age, or something else?

Where did you hear that?

I first encountered this in my Larousse German-French dictionary, which has entries such as:

    Artensterben [ˈartn̩ʃtɛrbn̩] das (sans pl) disparition (f) des espèces.

    hiermit [ˈhiːɐ̯mɪt] adv avec ceci.

    Jahrhundert [jaːɐ̯ˈhundɐt] (pl -e) das siècle (m) • im 19. Jahrhundert au XIXe siècle.

    Mieter [ˈmiːtɐ] (pl -) der locataire (f).

    Ortnung [ˈɔrtnʊŋ] die (sans pl) [...]

    werden [vɛrdn̩] v aux (prés wird [vɪrt], prét wurde) [...]

As you can see, /ʁ/ is written "[r]" after a short vowel (Artensterben, Ortnung, werden) but "[ɐ̯]" after a long vowel (hiermit, Jahrhundert), except for the sequence */əʁ/ which is [ɐ] (Jahrhundert, Mieter).

One day I made a table containing the irregular verbs classified by vowel changes, and a man from Germany criticized me for saying "darf" was /aː/, as apparently some or many German speakers have [a] + some rhotic. This is why "darf" is now listed under /a/.

Most recently, our fellow user xBlackHeartx reports being taught a pronunciation along these lines:
xBlackHeartx wrote:Obviously, this is even more minimal than the definite articles. The only oddity I should note is that final 'er' is pronounced as an 'ʌ' (the word 'der' is pronounced dɛʀ).


However, the few resources for German I've looked at don't mention this, so I'd like to know who it is that typically speaks like this.

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby xBlackHeartx » 2018-12-28, 23:07

My teacher told us that she was from west Germany, but didn't give much information as to where, other than the fact that her home town apparently featured in our text book. I believe she was from the north west region of Germany, which would mean that she would've lived around low German territory.

She also told us that she could understand about half of Danish, but I myself can't catch any of it except in writing. It certainly doesn't look like it would be very intelligible with German. Though this may be because she lived in the northern part of the country. Wikipedia claims that low German is actually part of a dialectal continuum with other languages in the region, including Dutch interestingly enough (of course, Wikipedia isn't really the best source for anything). I did find a Dutch book once that I was able to understand despite never having seen Dutch before. I can also understand Austrian and east German singers perfectly fine. Don't think I've ever head a Swiss though.

Oh, and when I first took her class she was surprised when I pronounced an -ig suffix as an iç. I had a phrase book that specifically taught that, but apparently that pronunciation is unique to a few dialects in the southern part of the country. I would take that to mean that southern dialects were foreign to her.

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-29, 4:00

Ser wrote:
Car wrote:
Ser wrote:Hi guys, just a question. What type of people pronounce German /ʁ/ as [ʁ] after a short vowel, saying the article "der" as [dɛʁ] and "darf" as [daʁf]? Is this done in a particular region of the German-speaking world, or is it associated with people of a certain socioeconomic status or age, or something else?

Where did you hear that?

I first encountered this in my Larousse German-French dictionary, which has entries such as:

One day I made a table containing the irregular verbs classified by vowel changes, and a man from Germany criticized me for saying "darf" was /aː/, as apparently some or many German speakers have [a] + some rhotic. This is why "darf" is now listed under /a/.

Most recently, our fellow user xBlackHeartx reports being taught a pronunciation along these lines:
xBlackHeartx wrote:Obviously, this is even more minimal than the definite articles. The only oddity I should note is that final 'er' is pronounced as an 'ʌ' (the word 'der' is pronounced dɛʀ).



I guess it makes sense since you have e.g. Swiss speakers who actually use [r] there. I'm not sure if there's a region in Germany where it's pronounced as either [r] or [ʁ], but since it does exist, it makes sense to go for a broader transcription that makes it possible.

I'm pretty sure I don't just use /a:/ for "darf", but it's definitely not [ʁ], but rather something like [ɐ̯]. Although my father once mocked me for pronouncing the name "Fahr" in a way which to him sounded like the name of the soap "Fa". :lol: It's not as if he uses [ʁ] in those positions, but I think it's likely some people tend to have a bit more /a/-like pronunciation than others.

I've never heard [dɛʀ] IRL, only once on TV, but that was a guy switching from Swabian (?) to standard German, so it might have been either influenced by that or a hypercorrection. kevin should know.
I pronounce it like [deɐ̯] or whatever this is.

Oh, and when I first took her class she was surprised when I pronounced an -ig suffix as an iç. I had a phrase book that specifically taught that, but apparently that pronunciation is unique to a few dialects in the southern part of the country. I would take that to mean that southern dialects were foreign to her.


Quite the contrary, they don't use it in the south and it's very much part of the German German standard pronunciation.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby xBlackHeartx » 2018-12-29, 5:13

I've never heard a German pronounce -ig with a palatal fricative. That phrasebook I had is the only text I've ever seen that said to pronounce it that way.

As for the R, I admit I've often heard it be pronounced as some weird vowel sound rather than as an uvular trill at the end of words. Though this seems to happen more often with a word-final '-rer' than with a word-final 'r'. And honestly, I always found words like 'anderer' with that double -er sound to be kinda... odd to pronounce (for lack of a better term).

edit: Also, looking at that site you linked, did she seriously pronounce der with a long 'i' (ipa) sound? It sounds like the same vowel she used in 'die'. Then again, my teacher did consistently pronounce 'den' with a 'e' (ipa) sound. I don't recall her doing that with 'der', though her short 'e's did sometimes sound like they were pronounced a bit higher than they should be.

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-29, 12:08

xBlackHeartx wrote:edit: Also, looking at that site you linked, did she seriously pronounce der with a long 'i' (ipa) sound? It sounds like the same vowel she used in 'die'. Then again, my teacher did consistently pronounce 'den' with a 'e' (ipa) sound. I don't recall her doing that with 'der', though her short 'e's did sometimes sound like they were pronounced a bit higher than they should be.


It sounds like /e~e:/ to me.
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