Just a couple of notes:
cHr0mChIk wrote: I asked them to translate for me sentences which have in them every possible grammatical case I could think of, even the ones which don't exist in my language.. like for example "The sun is shining = O kham sijil"; "I am moving away from the sun = Me našav taro khamehtar..." etc.
"O kham sijil.
" - "sijil" is a Vlax verb, since in Balkan dialects we add an infix "-in-" for loaned verbs. Such verb would be "sijinela" in Balkan Romani. The Bosnian Gypsies with whom I spoke there, were speaking the Gurbet
dialect (Southern Vlax).
"O kham sijinela
." / "O kham sijajinela
." is the Balkan Romani variant of this sentence.
"Me našav taro khamehtar.
" - "našav" is Vlax, in Balkan Romani, our present tense ends with -a; except in cases when it's followed by a pronoun ("tu dikheja" but "tu dikhe man"). Also, "khameh
tar" is the Gurbet Ablative case. Gurbet Romani is one of those dialects which replace "s" with "h". In most other dialects, Ablative case suffix is "-estar".
Balkan Romani: "Me našava taro khamestar.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Muslim Gypsies from my city were having a completely different verb "to be" conjugation which I saw for the first time there:
"me injum, tu injan, vov isi..."
(Vlax Roma use "vov"; Balkan Roma use "ov").
cHr0mChIk wrote:phonetic differences - "ć/đ" or "kj/gj"
vaćarav / vakjarav?
ćerav / kerav?
đilabav / giljabav?
cHr0mChIk wrote:phonetic differences - "o" or "e" in past tense
is it "kerđom" or "kerđem" (because I think I've seen some varieties say it with e as well)...
Vlax dialects say "kerdem"; however Non-Vlax dialects have an "o" instead: "kerdom".
Most dialects actually palatalize the "d" and "k", so the pronunciation of it greatly varies across dialects.
Our dialect pronounces it as "ḱerǵum
" (kjergjum), though.
like in the song "dželjem, dželjem
" or however it's said, the anthem of Gypsies
The song is actually "đelem, đelem
" and not "dželem, dželem
", although in infinitive this verb is indeed "džal". This is one of those irregular verbs. In present tense, it has a "dž" (me džav, tu dža, vov džal), but in past tense, it has a "g" (me geljom, tu geljan, vov gelja) - this is analogous to the Urdu verb "jaana", which is "gaya" in the past tense. This is one of those cases of Palatalization: g -> gj -> đ; that's why it's "đelem".
In the Balkan Romani, this would be "geljum, geljum
" [ǵeľum, ǵeľum].
cHr0mChIk wrote:I thought that "h" became "s".
Actually, "s" is older; and "s" became "h". That is the case mainly in Sinte and Gurbet Romani dialects.
cHr0mChIk wrote:I always believed that there is no distinction between the forms with or without vowels (me džanav / džanava; tu džane / džaneja; vov džanel / džanela), however, Gypsies from my city told me that the forms with a are feminine forms... interesting...
They were wrong, there is no distinction. "džanav" is the Vlax form, "džanava" is the Balkan form.
cHr0mChIk wrote:The Bosnian Gypsies told me stomach is "poh" in their dialect, and they also wrote it that way.. I'm not sure whether it's "h" or "x", though...
It's most certainly "pox", since it's the devoiced form of "poř / porr".
cHr0mChIk wrote:How do you say the verb "to understand" ?
The Vlax word for it is "xaťarel", and the Balkan word is "haľovel" - it is one of the words used for differentiating and determining dialects.
vijayjohn wrote:Interesting; for me, ogi means something more like 'soul'.
Actually, peř means "stomach", as the stomach outside (belly) [in Serbian: "stomak"]; however [v]oǵi means stomach as on the inside - the internal organ [in Serbian: "želudac"]. In the secondary, more metaphorical usage, this word means soul.
It can create ambiguities, though, since, in the Northern Arli (the one they speak in Northern Serbia, and where I am from), the loanword "duša" is used as the only word for "soul", while "[v]ođi" is only used to mean stomach (želudac
lačho [ɫaˈʂo] = good
mišto = great
šukar = beautiful (but I've also seen it used to mean 'good', at least in some varieties of Romani
In here, "lačho" and "mišto" are only used by Vlax Roma; while Balkan Roma use "šukar" for all three (good, great, nice, and okay
- as in conformation) - and "šužo" for "beautiful".
cHr0mChIk wrote:Have you also heard of "hem" / "em" ? Is it maybe used with a different meaning?... hmm
It is used with the same meaning. "Thaj" is Vlax, while "(h)em" is Balkan. Balkan dialects use a lot of Turkish loanwords, where some of them they have completely replaced the native words.
cHr0mChIk wrote:I meant the word "khali" (with "kh"). It has a similar meaning as phuv and them. Here, "them" and "phuv" are considered synonyms because in Serbian, they're both translated as "zemlja". "Khali" is translated as zemlja as well.
Okay this word may not exist. When I were in Slovakia and just started to learn Romani, that is one of the words I've written in my notebook, with the meaning "zemlja". I believe it was told to me by the Serbian Romani girl. However, I've never encountered it again and I haven't been able to find it in any dictionary, nor in any text. It's been a very long time since I wrote the word. Perhaps it was a mistake. I was absolutely sure that this word exists, however, since I wasn't able to find any reference to it anywhere, it may just be a mistake.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Oh cool, I actually thought so. Here, everybody (all 4 variants) were saying "razumil". However, Gypsies from here, although mostly using razumil as well, told me that the proper Gypsy way of saying "to understand" is "haljovel" (not sure whether it's with x or h... here Gypsies don't distinguish them in pronunciation)...
Vlaxs say "razumil", while Balkan Roma say "razuminela" (Bugurdžije say "razumizla" though - since they use an -iz- infix instead of the Arli -in-).
vijayjohn wrote:The neck, throat = e korr
In our dialect, the neck is "vrato", and throat is "grlo".
There is also the more proper word "men", which means "neck".
cHr0mChIk wrote:sky = ćeri / dela... Bosnian Gypsies said: oblakuri
The sky is "nebo". Both "ćeri" and "dela" are Vlax. Balkan uses only "nebo".
cHr0mChIk wrote:word = lafe (hmm I've never heard of "svato"). Some also use "alav" as word. I'm not sure whether it comes from "lafe" with an additional "a" in the beginning (like in anav, ašunav, etc.), or whether it comes from "anav" (name), because I think I've heard people saying it as "alav" in some dialects... hmm
*lafi and not lafe. That was either a typo or a mistake from me. Native Romani word for "word" is "(a)lav"; and "name" is "(a)nav". Some dialects mix these, or use one or the other for both (such as Sinte).
Non-Balkan dialects use either "(a)lav" or loanwords (such as svato, vorba, duma, etc.);
while Balkan dialects use "lafi". The word "lafi" could have either came from "(a)lav"; or perhaps from Turkish "laf", which is perhaps even more likely.
cHr0mChIk wrote:I remember reading in literature that Romani dialects can be divided in 2 groups: the one with "e" vowel and the one with "o"
Yep, I read that in the book Roma in Europe
by JP Liégeois.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Here it's:
although, in present tense:
me rovav; me sovav
Actually, I believe there is no "n":
"rugjum/ruđum" is the past tense of the verb "rovel".
"sukjum/sućum" is the past tense of the verb "sovel".
|Trin phrala sas sine, kaj tradine (džalje?) putujinena ande e lumja o sveto, te šaj kerena penge cikna love hari pare. Kana sas te džantar ked valjani te džana, phengja e kavrenge javrenge o najphuro phral: "Šunen, m'e phralale, dža svako po pesko drom pe trin riga, hem palo jekh berš te arakhljam amen pe sa akava odova isto drom kaj sijam akana!" Le kaver E javera phrala dingje pengo lafe lafi lengero te akava isi so te kerena.|
Palo jekh berš, arakhlje pale len, sa pe akava drom. O najphuro phral zaradinđa andolela ćilimi, o maškaruno dikhlo ogledalo, hem o najterno phral zaradinđa jabuka andolela phabaj. Li trin stvari kaj zaradinđe sas bhut čudni I trin bukja kaj andolje sine but čudne. O najphuro phral pučhlja phučlja peske phralendar so von zaradinđe andolje, hem o maškaruno mothodja odgovoringja: "Zaradinđum andoljum me jekh dikhlo ogledalo, hem ande akava dikhlo ogledalo, šaj te dikheja sae so kerena ande le aver država phuvja!" Li duj phrala phengje: "Šuži! (or "Šukar!")"
As you can see, my Romani improved a lot in the past year