Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

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Linguaphile
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-04, 3:37

Prantsis wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:and clear up whether or not it's reasonable to eat during a lunch break.
Kahtluse korral oleks siiski parem piirduda vaid linnupettega.

:rotfl:

Uut sõnu:*

teemoon = provisions (food) for a journey
teelahe = crossroads, parting of ways
teelahkmel = at the crossroads, parting
suu pidama = to hold one's tongue
onomatopöa = onomatopoeia
kahin = rustle, whisper, murmur
kihin = fizz, fizzle, hiss
kohin = murmur, sigh; roar (of the ocean); rustle (of leaves)
kõhin = rustle; rattle (in throat)
kõmin = rumble, boom
kähin = hoarse rasping sound, gasp
lahin = roaring noise (i.e. of water)
lohin = shuffling sound (of feet), sound caused by dragging
mügin = crackle, patter, chuckle
mühin = roar; whisper (of wind)
nahin = wheeze
nohin = sniff, sniffle
pahin = murmur (of water), rustle
pauh = pop, bang
pladin = sound of rain; patter, lap, splash

plagin = patter, clap, rattle, clatter, ping
puhin = wheeze, puff
rägin = rattle, crackle
röhin = hawking noise (throat), rattle (throat), wheeze
sahin = rustle, whisper

sihin = swish, hiss
sohin = whisper, murmur
suhin = chug, sigh, whizz
sulps = plop
sumin = buzz, hum

tuhin = whirr, whirl, rush
urin = growl
vihin = hiss, ping, zip, swish
ümin = hum, mumble

...

*Above I wanted to say uuevõitu, for "these words are a little bit new," because I have come across most of the onomatopoeic words before (some of them many times) and know that they represent sounds, but for the most part never quite remember which is which. So they are only a little bit new. The word uuevõitu seems to fit but here is the dilemma: if I want to use the partitive case as a heading at the top of my list, "some words that are a little bit new," are they uuevõituid sõnu? I don't think I've ever seen a word like uuevõitu (i.e., a word ending with -võitu) take a case ending or plural form (nor does my google search turn up any) and I don't know if it can or should. So what is the partitive plural form of uuevõitu sõna or should it be said some entirely different way?

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-04, 17:51

Linguaphile wrote:Uusi sõnu:*

...

The word uuevõitu seems to fit but here is the dilemma: if I want to use the partitive case as a heading at the top of my list, "some words that are a little bit new," are they uuevõituid sõnu? I don't think I've ever seen a word like uuevõitu (i.e., a word ending with -võitu) take a case ending or plural form (nor does my google search turn up any) and I don't know if it can or should. So what is the partitive plural form of uuevõitu sõna or should it be said some entirely different way?
Uuevõitu sõnu

You can't decline uuevõitu. I don't know what exactly is this. It's definitely not a normal declineable adjective.


Also, I think uuevõitu is not exactly what you'd want to use here. In my opinion, the suffix -võitu has a subjective ring to it - indicating that something is a bit too much for speaker's taste. So, uuevõitu indicating that these words are a bit too new for your liking.

I would say simply uuemaid sõnu, for example.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Prantsis » 2018-09-04, 23:11

Linguaphile wrote:but for the most part never quite remember which is which
Kas sa tahad öelda, et need on sihukesi sõnu, mis, tee või tina, mitte kuidagi mällu jäädvustuda ei taha ja parandamatult kipuvad ühtlaseks uduks sulanduma? Kui, siis sa pole ainus.

Muide, kas teate, milline lõpp on see in? (Grammatikaraamatud ei liigita teda nimisõnaliidete hulka.)

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-05, 2:10

ainurakne wrote:Uuevõitu sõnu
You can't decline uuevõitu. I don't know what exactly is this. It's definitely not a normal declineable adjective.

ainurakne wrote:I would say simply uuemaid sõnu, for example.

Aitäh!

Prantsis wrote:ühtlaseks uduks sulanduma

Ma saan aru; inglise keeles see oleks it all blends together. Aga kas see on levinud püsiväljend eesti keeles?

Prantsis wrote:Kui jah, siis sa pole ainus (/ üksi).

Jah, täpselt.

Prantsis wrote:Muide, kas teate, milline lõpp on see in? (Grammatikaraamatud ei liigita teda nimisõnaliidete hulka.)

Need on helijäljendused või onomatopoeetilised sõnad. Ma ei tea, miks see -in on nii tihti nendes sõnades olemas. Võibolla see -in on nagu heli ise, näiteks nagu sumin, mügin, sahin. Need on nimisõnad, aga alaleütlevas käändes on need nagu määrsõnad (sosin = whisper, sosinal = in a whisper). Suminal, müginal, sahinal jne.
On ka sõnad nagu õhin eagerness ja õhinal excitedly, eagerly. Need (minu arvates*) ei ole onomatopoeetilised sõnad.

*Kuid on võimalik, et ma eksin. Võibolla on need innukuste ja põnevate "helid".

Minu jaoks probleem on selles, et ühel onomatopoeetilisel sõnal on palju erinevate inglisekeelsete vastet, näiteks mühin roar ja whisper. Inglise keeles need on peaaegu vastandid: roar on vali ja väga kõva heli, whisper aga vaikne ja nõrk. See on korduvalt juhtunud, et sõnaraamatust leian ühe sõna jaoks mitu tähendust, mis mulle tunduvad teineteise vastanditena. Sageli kui loen ei tea üldse, mis heli see on, et raamatus on kirjeldatud: kas vali või vaikne, kas tugev või nõrk.

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-05, 5:48

Prantsis wrote:Kas sa tahad öelda, et need on sihukesed sõnad, mis, tee või tina, mitte kuidagi mällu jäädvustuda ei taha ja paratamatult kipuvad ühtlaseks uduks sulanduma? Kui nii, siis sa pole ainus.


Linguaphile wrote:Aitäh!
Võta heaks!

Linguaphile wrote:
Prantsis wrote:ühtlaseks uduks sulanduma
Ma saan aru; inglise keeles see oleks it all blends together. Aga kas see on levinud püsiväljend eesti keeles?
Minu jaoks tundub küll üsna loomulik keelekasutus.

Linguaphile wrote:Need on helijäljendused või onomatopoeetilised sõnad. Ma ei tea, miks see -in on nii tihti nendes sõnades olemas. Võibolla see -in on nagu heli ise, näiteks nagu sumin, mügin, sahin. Need on nimisõnad, aga alaleütlevas käändes on need nagu määrsõnad (sosin = whisper, sosinal = in a whisper). Suminal, müginal, sahinal jne.
On ka sõnad nagu õhin eagerness ja õhinal excitedly, eagerly. Need (minu arvates*) ei ole onomatopoeetilised sõnad.
Ma arvan, et see -in lõpp tekibki kõigi -isema tegusõnade puhul (millel enne i-d on kaashäälik), kui nad nimisõnadeks muuta: värin, võdin, judin, hubin, jne...

Linguaphile wrote:*Kuid on võimalik, et ma eksin. Võibolla on need innukus(t)e ja põnevus(t)e "helid".


Linguaphile wrote:Minu jaoks probleem on selles, et ühel onomatopoeetilisel sõnal on palju erinevaid inglisekeelseid vasteid, näiteks mühin roar ja whisper. Inglise keeles need on peaaegu vastandid: roar on vali ja väga kõva heli, whisper aga vaikne ja nõrk. See on korduvalt juhtunud, et sõnaraamatust leian ühe sõna jaoks mitu tähendust, mis mulle tunduvad teineteise vastanditena. Sageli, kui loen, ei tea üldse, mis heli see on, mis/mida raamatus on kirjeldatud: kas vali või vaikne, kas tugev või nõrk.
Neid sõnu ei ole üldse mõtet inglise keelde tõlkida. Sa pead lihtsalt teadma, kuidas nad kõlavad (või mis neid helisid tekitab).

Näiteks mühin on selline pehme madal heli, mida võib põhjustada tuul nii metsas kui merel. Aga seda võib tekitada ka suurtes kogustes kiiresti liikuv vesi (näiteks kosk või juga). Mühin on minu meelest palju pehmem (või summutatum) kui näiteks kohin (mis on sarnane heli).
Mühina valjus aga ei oma tähtsust. Valjus oleneb sellest, kui lähedal sa heli allikale oled: mühin võib olla väga vali (kuid mitte terav) või väga vaikne, kui sa kuuled seda kustki kaugusest.
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2018-09-05, 8:41

Linguaphile wrote:
Prantsis wrote:Muide, kas teate, milline lõpp on see in? (Grammatikaraamatud ei liigita teda nimisõnaliidete hulka.)

Need on helijäljendused või onomatopoeetilised sõnad. Ma ei tea, miks see -in on nii tihti nendes sõnades olemas. Võibolla see -in on nagu heli ise, näiteks nagu sumin, mügin, sahin. Need on nimisõnad, aga alaleütlevas käändes on need nagu määrsõnad (sosin = whisper, sosinal = in a whisper). Suminal, müginal, sahinal jne.

I tried to google but it failed me, so unfortunately all I can say is that these look a lot like Finnish onomatopoetic words (here's a nice list - some of them are even the same as in Estonian, which was a surprise to me! :D) That's why I'm fairly sure that -in and -inA are the "same"... suffix? Not sure what to call that.

But I don't think it's just the ending. There's always the same structure in every onomatopoetic word: (C)VC+in(A)*, like Finnish kohina, murina, sirinä, tärinä... and Estonian sumin, mügin, sahin. I'd say the structure of the word and the ending -in(A) are something like a template that you can use to create new onomatopoetic words that others can recognise as, well, onomatopoetic, and understand what you mean even if they've never heard these words before. (At least in Finnish you can create new words like that. Is it the same in Estonian?)

On ka sõnad nagu õhin eagerness ja õhinal excitedly, eagerly. Need (minu arvates*) ei ole onomatopoeetilised sõnad.

They could be. There's the words tohina and tohinalla in Finnish, which mean pretty much the same as in Estonian õhin and õhinal (except it also has the meaning 'fuss, hassle'). The structure is again the same (C)VC+in, and at least this dictionary says 'tohina' is a sound, so... I could imagine õhin being a sound, too, even if you don't really make noises when you're excited. :mrgreen: Or that õhin used to be a sound that was associated with excitement.

*I have also seen some CCVC ones, like kröhinä, but consonant clusters are somewhat rare so I don't know how common these are in either language.

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-05, 13:51

Aitäh teile mõlemale! Just a couple of quick comments this morning as I don't have much time to post. (Nice list in the link, by the way, Naava.)

Naava wrote:
On ka sõnad nagu õhin eagerness ja õhinal excitedly, eagerly. Need (minu arvates*) ei ole onomatopoeetilised sõnad.

They could be. There's the words tohina and tohinalla in Finnish, which mean pretty much the same as in Estonian õhin and õhinal (except it also has the meaning 'fuss, hassle'). The structure is again the same (C)VC+in, and at least this dictionary says 'tohina' is a sound, so... I could imagine õhin being a sound, too, even if you don't really make noises when you're excited. :mrgreen: Or that õhin used to be a sound that was associated with excitement.

Funny you should mention that one, because last night even while posting I was starting to convince myself that that type of word is like describing a sound, and I thought of tuhinal in Estonian, which often just indicates speed (not sound), and in English we do something really similar with words like whizz, zip-zip, bing-bang-bam. Kind of like the imagined sound of speed.

Naava wrote:*I have also seen some CCVC ones, like kröhinä, but consonant clusters are somewhat rare so I don't know how common these are in either language.

I don't know either, but here are some from Estonian: klirin, klugin, krabin, krõbin, pladin, plagin, pragin, prõgin, trilin, trügin. Several of them have to do with water; in English we'd say splash or plop or glug for those, which makes them similar to the sounds used in Estonian for the same meaning and English uses similar consonant clusters for them. (But trügin is another one of those that may or may not be related to sound: pushing one's way through a crowded space.)

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Prantsis » 2018-09-05, 21:21

ainurakne wrote:Ma arvan, et see -in lõpp tekibki kõigi -isema tegusõnade puhul (millel enne i-d on kaashäälik), kui nad nimisõnadeks muuta: värin, võdin, judin, hubin, jne...

Just see üllatas mind, et tegusõna ei peeta vastupidi nimisõnast tulenevaks. Aga kui järele möelda, samasugune tuletamine leidub ka prantsuse keeles, nt:
clic (onom.) -> cliqueter "klõbisema" -> cliquetis "klõbin"
clap (onom.) -> clapoter "loksuma" -> clapotis "loksumine, lokse"
gazouiller "sidistama, vidistama" -> gazouillis "sidin, vidin"

Paljudele -in nimisõnadele ei ole prantsuse keeles päris vastet. Mõnel juhul kasutatakse hoopis heli tekitava liikumise või muu nähtuse nime. Näiteks võidakse tõlkida lohinat sõnaga frottement, mille põhitähendus on hõõr(d)umine.

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-06, 2:16

Prantsis wrote:Just see üllatas mind, et tegusõna ei peeta vastupidi nimisõnast tulenevaks.

Jah, ma arvasin samamoodi.

ainurakne wrote:Neid sõnu ei ole üldse mõtet inglise keelde tõlkida. Sa pead lihtsalt teadma, kuidas nad kõlavad (või mis neid helisid tekitab).

Jah, aga tähendus pole alati selge... the problem is that the words don't always resemble the sound, at least not to an English-speaking brain. It helps when they are compound words, because those come wrapped up together with their own context and examples: kellatilin, ketikõlin, käteplagin, mobiilihelin, ojavulin, põlemispragin... those I can imagine rather well.
These words (-in onomatopoeic words) are very common in literature, and usually when I come across them I just think "okay, some kind of sound" and move on. After a while that starts to be a bit embarrassing (the fact that I've seen them many times and still don't know which kind of sound most of them represent).
I searched EKSS for them, worked out a way to make a list of all of them that EKSS has, and came up with more than two hundred... not including the compound words or the dialect variations (or any spontaneously-created ones that aren't in the dictionary). :shock: Okay, maybe this is why I haven't learned them all.

► Show Spoiler



And now some that don't fit the pattern: :twisted:
apelsin, kardin, kamin, masin, termin
(I'm imagining them all as sounds now, even though I know those aren't. Like, what would apelsin sound like? A juicy, crunchy sound. Kardin? A soft, rustling noise like cloth being moved. Masin? Really loud, metal-like, you have to shout to be heard over it. And kamin? Like the crackling pop of a fire.)
(Yeah, I know that totally defeats the purpose of onomatopoeia and misses the point.)
:mrgreen:

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2018-09-06, 6:08

Linguaphile wrote:And now some that don't fit the pattern: :twisted:
apelsin, kardin, kamin, masin, termin
(I'm imagining them all as sounds now, even though I know those aren't. Like, what would apelsin sound like? A juicy, crunchy sound. Kardin? A soft, rustling noise like cloth being moved. Masin? Really loud, metal-like, you have to shout to be heard over it. And kamin? Like the crackling pop of a fire.)

But kamin and masin are (CC)VC+in. They are sounds, obviously!

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-06, 10:05

Linguaphile wrote:
ainurakne wrote:Neid sõnu ei ole üldse mõtet inglise keelde tõlkida. Sa pead lihtsalt teadma, kuidas nad kõlavad (või mis neid helisid tekitab).

Jah, aga tähendus pole alati selge... the problem is that the words don't always resemble the sound, at least not to an English-speaking brain.
Jah, ma ei mõelnudki nende sõnade kõla, vaid reaalseid helisid, mida nad esindavad.
Ega minagi ingliskeelseist helijäljendusist iseenesest aru saa. Ning enamusi neist ei ole mõtet üritadagi tõlkida. Meelde jäävad nad siis, kui kuulda neid sõnu reaalses keelekasutuses koos nende helidega, mille kirjeldamiseks neid kasutatakse - näiteks filmides või kuuldemängudes. Raamatutest üldjuhul selliseid sōnu ei õpi (või vähemasti ei saa nende õiget kasutust selgeks).
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Prantsis » 2018-09-06, 22:58

Linguaphile wrote:I searched EKSS for them, worked out a way to make a list of all of them that EKSS has, and came up with more than two hundred...

Vahva sõnaloend, aitäh! Aga... kuhu siis on jäänud vurin? Ja inin, ja...
(Kas sa muutsid sõnade kirja paksuks ükshaaval unilangi riistaga? :shock: )

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-07, 0:10

Prantsis wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:I searched EKSS for them, worked out a way to make a list of all of them that EKSS has, and came up with more than two hundred...

Vahva sõnaloend, aitäh! Aga... kuhu siis on jäänud vurin? Ja inin, ja...

Ei tea. Olen kindel, et puuduvad teised ka.
Prantsis wrote:(Kas sa muutsid sõnade kirja paksuks ükshaaval unilangi riistaga?

Jah. Tegin seda televiisori vaatamise ajal. See on vist põhjus, miks mõned sõnad puuduvad. Televiisorit vaadates ei pööranud sõnaloendile piisavalt tähelepanu.
:D

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-08, 17:26

klaarsäga = claresse (hybrid catfish)
krevett = shrimp
makra = imitation crab
mädarõigas = horseradish
nisuvõrse = wheatgrass
sinihallitusjuust = blue cheese
vaarak = small cheese-filled pastry
vadakuvalk = whey protein

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Prantsis » 2018-09-08, 21:48

Head isu!

kontvõõras intruder, gatecrasher
(In "kontvõõras", "kont" doesn't mean "kont".)

Ega minugi suu seinapragu ole. "My mouth isn't a wall crack either!" is what you could say, for instance, to someone eating shrimps and blue cheese next to you without offering you any. :roll:

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-09, 3:38

Prantsis wrote:Head isu!

kontvõõras intruder, gatecrasher
(In "kontvõõras", "kont" doesn't mean "kont".)

Ega minugi suu seinapragu ole. "My mouth isn't a wall crack either!" is what you could say, for instance, to someone eating shrimps and blue cheese next to you without offering you any. :roll:

Ülaltoodud lingil leidsin ka
luhvel = spork
Mul on vaja luhvlit! "I need a spork!" is what you could say, for instance, to someone offering shrimp and blue cheese to you without offering you any utensils. Või ka see, mida kontvõõras ütleb, kui ta paneb peoroogade jääke oma kasetohust märsisse sisse peo viimasel päeval.
:mrgreen:

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-09, 5:02

Olen alati mõelnud, miks on kahvel just "kahvel". Nime järgi kõlab nagu ta oleks kaheharuline. Tavaliselt süüakse ikka neljaharuliste "nehvlitega". Väikestel lastel on muidugi kolmeharulised "kohvlid". "Kahvel" on tavaline kaheharuline hark ning "ühvel" lihtsalt ork.

Peale nende on veel ka "vihvel", "kuhvel" ja "sehvel", aga need on pigem juba poosetamiseks. Peale seitset muutub asi juba kahtlaseks.

Kui on juba kümme ja enam haru, siis on harud nii tihedasti, et vahesid ei jäägi. See ongi "kühvel" (shovel, scoop, trowel).
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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-09, 5:27

ainurakne wrote:Olen alati mõelnud, miks on kahvel just "kahvel". Nime järgi kõlab nagu ta oleks kaheharuline. Tavaliselt süüakse ikka neljaharuliste "nehvlitega". Väikestel lastel on muidugi kolmeharulised "kohvlid". "Kahvel" on tavaline kaheharuline hark ning "ühvel" lihtsalt ork.

Peale nende on veel ka "vihvel", "kuhvel" ja "sehvel", aga need on pigem juba poosetamiseks. Peale seitset muutub asi juba kahtlaseks.

Kui on juba kümme ja enam haru, siis on harud nii tihedasti, et vahesid ei jäägi. See ongi "kühvel" (shovel, scoop, trowel).

:goodone:
Mitte kaua aega tagasi kirjutasid, et siin sa hiljuti ei kirjutanud sellepärast, et ei oska midagi tarka öelda. Aga see on küll väga hark tark.
:congrats:

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Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Naava » 2018-09-09, 7:39

ainurakne wrote:Olen alati mõelnud, miks on kahvel just "kahvel".

We have the word kaffeli in my dialect, but looks like we should start to call it neffeli instead. :hmm: Thank you for englightening me today!

A few words I've learnt so far:
ennast ravima - to get better? to heal? :D I don't really know how to translate this into English.
kasulik - useful
kohustuslik kursus - mandatory course
kõrvalaine - minor subject
peaaine - major subject
puur - cage
ravim - medicine

Cage was one of the first words I learnt in Russian, and I've been joking that what they taught us during the first lessons was how to say "I live in a cage". Well, now I can say it in Estonian, too...

When the teacher wrote the word peaaine on the whiteboard, the person sitting next to me whispered to me "I feel like a rebellion because we can write it like that" - if it was a Finnish word, it should be written as pea-aine. She also added that she loves words like töööö and jäääär because you have four vowels in a row. :mrgreen: And I was amused by the word kõrvalaine because I read it as kõrva/laine every single time and then I find myself thinking of something like this because 'hiukset laineilla' means you have loose curls in Finnish.

Linguaphile
Posts: 2266
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Sõnad, mida hiljuti õppisid

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-09, 17:14

ainurakne wrote:Kui on juba kümme ja enam haru, siis on harud nii tihedasti, et vahesid ei jäägi. See ongi "kühvel" (shovel, scoop, trowel).

Kas sajaharuline hark pole sahtel?
Sel sõnal on mingi ebatavaline astmevaheldus: sada > saht ja kaotab täht v.
Selline sajaharuline olukord on võimalik näiteks kui sul on umbes 25 neljaharulist kahvlit sahtlis. Siis vaata imet - sul on sajaharuline sahtel.

ainurakne wrote:"Kahvel" on tavaline kaheharuline hark ning "ühvel" lihtsalt ork.

Sealt saame inglise keele nime fork ('four' nelja[haruline] + ork).

Naava wrote:When the teacher wrote the word peaaine on the whiteboard, the person sitting next to me whispered to me "I feel like a rebellion because we can write it like that" - if it was a Finnish word, it should be written as pea-aine. She also added that she loves words like töööö and jäääär because you have four vowels in a row. :mrgreen: And I was amused by the word kõrvalaine because I read it as kõrva/laine every single time and then I find myself thinking of something like this because 'hiukset laineilla' means you have loose curls in Finnish.

I like your interpretation of kõrvalaine, complete with a photo! Now I'm going to think of that every time I see the word.
I have misread Estonian words in similar ways so many times. For example puuteekraan is a touchscreen (puute|ekraan), not a wooden spigot that dispenses tea (puu|tee|kraan).


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