Irish Study Group

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-10, 0:27

No, trying to guilt you for not paying attention! :twisted:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-10, 7:11

vijayjohn wrote:TOMÁS: Tá, tá páistí agam. Agus féin?

That's what the book seems to want. I just wonder whether "agat féin" wouldn't make more sense?

Exercise 6

Cé mhéad duine a bhíonn i mbriogáid dóiteáin?
Naonúr, naonúr, naonúr
:D

4. An bhfuil aithne agat ar mo dheairfiúr? Ohmigod I keep misspelling 'brother' in this language!!

Actually, this one was sister. ;)

The word "dhearfiúr" is impossible because of "caol le caol agus leathan le leathan". The preceding "a" would mark "rf" broad, but the following "i" would mark it slender. Except for compound words, the vowels on both sides of a consonant (cluster) must agree.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby silmeth » 2018-07-10, 9:17

vijayjohn wrote:Okay, it's almost Tuesday anyway, so I'm not even bothering to use spoil tags this time. :)
4. An bhfuil aithne agat ar mo dheairfiúr? Ohmigod I keep misspelling 'brother' in this language!!


EDIT: And… I see kevin caught that as well, but his response was on the next page. Well, I’ll leave this, since I’ve already mentioned the word’s etymology. :P

deirfiúr is a sister, not a brother. ;-)

(It was easier for me to remember which is which, after I understood the etymology – it is a compound word, dearbh + siúr, lit. ‘certain, known, true sister’, where siúr comes from PIE. *swésōr, just as sister does. Siúr changes to fiúr in the compound, because compounds lenite, and in Old Irish siur lenited to fiur, because there was /sw/ in the Proto-Indo-European word.)

kevin wrote:That's what the book seems to want. I just wonder whether "agat féin" wouldn't make more sense?

That’s what I’d have written there as well. It’d be nice to have a native comment on that.

kevin wrote:The word "dhearfiúr" is impossible because of "caol le caol agus leathan le leathan". The preceding "a" would mark "rf" broad, but the following "i" would mark it slender. Except for compound words, the vowels on both sides of a consonant (cluster) must agree.

But deirfiúr is a compound word and compounds, as you noted yourself, often break the rule – eg. arís (← a rithis) or bándearg. It was written dearbh-shiúr in older spelling (my bad, it’s rather been deirbhshiúr in modern Irish – dearbh-shiúr was being used, but not that often), and is still dearbh-phiuthar in Scottish Gaelic, where the caol and leathan rule works as well…
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-10, 9:39

Yeah, I didn't realise that "deirfiúr" is a compound (or rather, I forgot it; I think I heard the etymology before).

There are probably many exceptions for this, but I suppose most words are respelt sooner or later when it's not obvious any more that they are compound words, so in practice the rule works usually. In your example, "bándearg" is a very obvious compound, and "arís" is a frequently used word, so you just know it's one of the exceptions even though it's not perceived as a compound any more.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-10, 14:13

And, of course, complicating everything is the fact that deirfiúr is compromise spelling which I don't think represents a popular pronunciation anywhere. The dialects have all rearranged the word in various ways; Wiktionary actually has a very good summary.
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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-14, 6:18

Thanks for all the explanations, everyone! :)

There's no way in hell I'm going to do a whole nother chapter in this thread when it's past 1 and I start work in less than eight hours, but I definitely will post my answers sometime between now and Tuesday! :silly:
kevin wrote:
Exercise 6

Cé mhéad duine a bhíonn i mbriogáid dóiteáin?
Naonúr, naonúr, naonúr
:D

I actually had to look that up to make sure I got the joke. :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 8:51

So I did chapter 4 as well but in a hurry. Is there any point in me using spoiler tags anymore? No one else seems to be doing the exercises anyway. :hmm: Oh well.

Exercise 1

1. Ba mhaith liom teach a thógáil ar cíos ar feadh seachtaine i mí Aibreáin.
2. Cé mhéad seomra codlata atá uait?
3. Tá trí sheomra codlata, cisteanach agus seomra suite ann.
4. An bhfuil teilifís agus inneall níocháin ann?

Exercise 2 (okay I actually did this one wrong oopsie haha)

1. Sa leithreas 2. Sa gcisteanach 3. Sa seomra folctha 4. Sa seomra codlata 5. Sa halla 6. Sa seomra suite 7. Sa seomra staidéir

Exercise 3

1. ocht gcinn
2. trí cinn
3. ceithre cinn
4. deich gcinn
5. dhá cheann
6. ceann amháin

Exercise 4

1. an seomra suite
2. an t-áiléar
3. an oifig
4. an siléar
5. an tsráid
6. an t-inneal

Exercise 5

1. Ní maith. Tá sé róbheag (anseo?).
2. Is maith. Tá sé ceart go leor (anseo?).
3. Ní maith. Tá sé glórach anseo.
4. Is maith. Tá sé an-mhór (anseo?).
5. Ní maith. Tá sé róchiúin (anseo?).

Exercise 6
Umm how am I supposed to know whether the bathroom is to the left or to the right? I guess I'll assume it's to the left like in the example? Oh they don't care. Wtf then why'd they put it in the example lol

1. an chéad doras ar chlé
2. an ceathrú doras ar chlé
3. an dara doras ar chlé
4. an cúigiú doras ar chlé

Exercise 7

1. Níl sé ródhaor.
2. An chéad doras ar dheis.
3. Tá sé ciúin anseo.
4. Tá sé ceart go leor.
5. An dara doras ar chlé.
6. Tá sé daor go leor.

Exercise 8

1. bungaló
2. leithreas
3. cisteanach
4. árasán
5. ríomhaire

Exercise 9 (they don't have an answer key for this one??)

Cónaím i dteach. Is teach aonair sa gcathair é. Tá cisteanach agus seomra bia ar chlé agus seomra teaghlaigh ar dheas. Sa halla idir an dá thaobh atá an staighre. I gcúl an tí atá an pantrach. Thuas staighre, tá dhá sheomra codlata agus seomra folctha.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-15, 9:20

Are you done with editing your answers? :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-15, 10:14

I still need to catch up. :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-15, 10:58

I think while writing this I already answered it myself, but I had a question for this lesson, specifically about exercise 2. I tried to do this for Ulster, so:

1. sa leithreas, 2. sa chisteanach, 3. sa tseomra folctha, 4. sa tseomra codlata, 5. sa halla, 6. sa tseomra suite, 7. sa tseomra staidéir (or ins an for sa in each answer)

What confused me at first is that adjectives after dative "an" + noun are supposed to be lenited as well, but obviously none of the words following "tseomra" are lenited here. Apparently, if GnaG is to be believed, while indefinite genitives generally behave like adjectives, verbal nouns in the genitive after "normal" noun aren't (as opposed to the verbal adjective). If I understand the logic correctly, "seomra folctha" is a "bathroom", whereas "seomra fholctha" would be a "bathed room".

The explanation in GnaG isn't really about dative nouns before the genitive one, but I suppose it doesn't make a difference?

Does this make sense?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 15:35

Does GnaG stand for Gramadach na Gaeilge?
kevin wrote:Are you done with editing your answers? :P

Yeah, because I went to sleep shortly after you wrote that. :P
księżycowy wrote:I still need to catch up. :P

Do you think it would be better if I held off for a few weeks or so before going on to lesson 5? Or do you think I should just go ahead? What do you think would feel most helpful for you? :)

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-15, 20:03

vijayjohn wrote:Does GnaG stand for Gramadach na Gaeilge?

Go díreach. And usually I refer to the German version of it.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-15, 20:09

vijayjohn wrote:Do you think it would be better if I held off for a few weeks or so before going on to lesson 5? Or do you think I should just go ahead? What do you think would feel most helpful for you? :)

Nah. Keep in mind this is mostly just light review for me anyway. Plus I don't care if I'm on the same exact lesson or trailing behind a bit.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 21:56

I take that to mean I can post my answers for Chapter 5 here next week? :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-15, 22:30

Indoubitably.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 22:51

księżycowy wrote:Indoubitably.

Go raibh maith agat! :)

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-18, 16:46

vijayjohn wrote:B'fhéidir gur cheart dom a iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt.

A bit awkward. I prefer iarracht a thabhairt/dhéanamh ar to iarraidh since the primary meaning of iarr is "request", but b'fhéidir gur chóir dom iarracht a dhéanamh ar Ghaelainn a labhairt is so unwieldy that I would probably just say ba chóir dom níos mó Gaelainne a labhairt
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-26, 8:55

Nach ndearna duine ar bith na cleachtaí an tseachtain seo? :(

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby ceid donn » 2018-07-31, 5:48

I guess not. Another study group that has died almost as quickly as it started, huh?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-31, 6:34

I'll admit I did next to nothing this week, but I'm not willing to give up so easily. :P I'll try to post the next lesson next weekend (unless everybody really thinks these groups are dead and it doesn't help anymore :para:).


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