Romani

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-06-22, 14:36

We [Roma] believe in one god, o Devel or o Del, and the devil, o Beng, and we believe that there is a constant struggle between them for dominance over our lives. To live properly is to abide by a set of behaviours collectively called Rromanipen, Rromipe or Rromanija, and this entails maintaining spiritual balance. This Ayurvedic concept, called karma in India (and in Romani kintala, or in some dialects kintari or kintujmos) is fundamental to the Romani worldview.


Wow, this is pretty interesting stuff. However, I don't think any Gypsies still believe in such? Maybe it's part of their tradition and something connected to their culture, but I don't think it still exists today. Anyway, I don't know...

Anyway, "my" :lol: Gypsies are Muslim and they are strongly following it and are religious. The non-Muslim Gypsies from here mostly have Christian-Orthodox/Serbian names like Novica, Zdravko, etc. and the most common surnames are Jovanović and Nikolić. They are often known to wear huge golden Orthodox crosses around their necks :lol: (something which I believe is the same as for Romanian Gypsies).

As for the Slovak/Hungarian Gypsies, my friends from Hungary tell me that Gypsies there are "ultra Catholic" :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:Oh, sorry! I meant 'who' and 'how much'. :ohwell:


Ohhhhhh... okay, I got it then! :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:Makes sense. It's an athematic word anyway, i.e. a loanword (maybe from Romanian?).


I have absolutely no clue about its etymology. Couldn't find anything. Also I don't know any word, in any Balkan language which sounds remotely close to it.... :hmm: (maybe you could check in your materials, if you'll have time and will... anyway it's not that important, so nevermind :lol:)

vijayjohn wrote:Čudàci here is the plural form of čudàto 'weird'. :)


Ohh, okay! I got it now :lol: in Serbo-Croatian "čudaci" is a plural of "čudak" (weirdo) :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:This comparison with your variety is really interesting, thanks!


You're welcome, and thank you as well! :D Anyway, I'm not a native Roma so I cannot guarantee anything... It's just how I think it is... Anyway, maybe when I'm back to my hometown I can talk to my fellow Gypsies from the Masjid and maybe they can translate it for me into how they would say it. We will see... :D

vijayjohn wrote:To me, you kind of sound like an imam when you're reading the story. :lol: :D


https://vocaroo.com/i/s0LjN1zWAZsG
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:Sure! I'll probably be three times as confused by it as you were by my text, but it's worth a try anyway. :D


A'ight... So, as they like to say in American movies: Here goes nothing :lol: :

Na džanava so te pišinav... ake, odlučinava te pišiv o akava diveste... So me kerđum adive...
Me siklino uštava ko dešu jekh, andar i bući. Ćerava popodne, andar o fakulteti...
Ama adive uštljum ko dešu duj sati, te džav ki Džamija, adaleske isi Džuma.
Majpalal, ovljum ko bankake, em onda vratinđum e sobeste.

Adive odmarav 8-) Nego, mangljum te phučavtu, dali šaj te koristina akava tema te prevodina đilja? ili mora te otvorina nova tema? Uglavnom, mangljum te phenav - so kerđam baše Bajramsko dive :D :

Posle Bajramsko namazi, amen đilavđan iljahije (amaro islamsko hor), em jekh iljahija bušel "Jusuf, kaj sijan?" - priča o resuleske Jakupi a.s.; hem leskoro čhavo Jusuf a.s. kana Jakup a.s. izgubinđa leskoro čhavo... Vov ovilja bhut bibaxtalo... Mangljum te zumave te prevodine akava tekst: "Sao dobor vakti dovaja ja kerđa, hem taro Allahi, Jusufe rodinđa. 'Jusuf, Jusuf, kaj sijan tu?' Rovel o Jakupi, hem phenela: 'Jusuf, kaj sijan?' Jusufe fordinđa o phral ko bunari, i košulja anđa, oj sa ratvalji. Bhut raća na suća, Jakupi runđa. O leskoro rojba ole kořjarđa. Jusuf, Jusuf, kaj sijan tu?' Rovel o Jakupi, hem phenela: 'Jusuf, kaj sijan? O Allah mazumi na mukhel Resule, palo le dobor brš, dikhel e Jusufe!"

hahah so... this is my variety of Romani... that's how I speak it... I'm not a native speaker though, so there could be mistakes still... anyway, I wanted to say, that I've decided to use "ć" and "đ"... just for the sake of more variation and making it more interesting (since I know that you use "k/t" and "g/d" in your variety :D) - although in speaking I'd rather pronounce them as kj and gj. :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

Znex
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Re: Romani

Postby Znex » 2018-06-23, 12:23

This is for Sinte, but since I'm not near fluent, take everything I say below with a pinch of salt.
cHr0mChIk wrote:1. Verb "to be" conjugation

Code: Select all

me hom      mer ham
tu hal      tumer han
job/joj hi  jon hi

cHr0mChIk wrote:2. Present tense (do you use the -s suffix in 2nd person singular? or do you make it end with -eja? I've heard Serbian Gypsies say things like "sar vikineja tu?")

Neither; with ē. That may or may not derived from the same source as -eja. (Sinte has contrastive vowel length btw.)

Code: Select all

phenel:
me phenau       mer phenā
tu phenē        tumer phenen
job/joj phenel  jon phenen

cHr0mChIk wrote:3. Past tense - examples: vakjergjom/vaćerđom; dingjum/dinđum; dikhljum; mangljum,... (you don't have to
conjugate it, 1st person singular would be enough)

rakrom, dom, dikhom, mangom.

Code: Select all

phenel:
me phenom       mer phenam
tu phenal       tumer phenan
job/joj phenas  jon phenan

cHr0mChIk wrote:4. Future tense - do you say it the Balkan way (with "ka")?

Sinte does use kamel, but as a future auxiliary verb. eg. Me kamau te chal kōva {I will/I'm going to eat something}.

cHr0mChIk wrote:5. phonetic differences - "s" or "h", in words:
khamehtar/khamestar?
vov hi/si?

phonetic differences - "ć/đ" or "kj/gj"
vaćarav / vakjarav?
ćerav / kerav?
đilabav / giljabav?

phonetic differences - "č/dž" or "š/ž"
čhav / šhav?
džanav / žanav?

phonetic differences - "o" or "e" in past tense
is it "kerđom" or "kerđem" (because I think I've seen some varieties say it with e as well)... like in the song "dželjem, dželjem" or however it's said, the anthem of Gypsies :D

phonetic - vowel additions at the beginning of words:
name: anav or nav
to listen/hear: ašunel or šunel
night: irat or rat
something "is": isi or si

"s" or "h": Mixed. job hi, tu dikhē, mer phenā, but džijestar, job mangas.
"ć/đ" or "kj/gj": k/g. eg. me rakrau, kerau, gīvau
"č/dž" or "š/ž": č/dž. eg. čhavo, džinau.
"o" or "e" in past tense: o and a. See above.
vowel prothesis: No. eg. lab, šunel, rat, hi.

cHr0mChIk wrote:How do you say "exists" in your variety?

Same as "to be".

cHr0mChIk wrote:also the word "star"? and "chair", "stomach"... hmm how do you say these?

i bolepaskeri momeli {star}, o štulo or maybe o štamin {chair}, o per {stomach}. (Coda r in Sinte is similarly gutteral.)

cHr0mChIk wrote:So, that's another thing I wanted to ask you. Does the variant which you speak have these words, or do they use Romanian words instead?
"hello", "goodbye", "thank you", etc. ?

Sinte still has some native phrases:
lačho dīves {good day; hello}
dža(n) mo debleha {goodbye; farewell}
(ačen (m)o) debleha {goodbye}
lačho drom {farewell; safe journey, bon voyage}
me parkrau man (paš tute) {thank you}
man khajt- {sorry/I feel sorry}

cHr0mChIk wrote:Also the word "nothing" was different everywhere.....
Bosnian Gypsies were saying "niso" (which makes sense), and Serbian Gypsies were saying "khanči"
Muslim Gypsies from my city say "ništa" (like in Serbian) - and they told me that Serbian Gypsies from our city also use "khanči"... since, when I asked about "khanči" they said "that's how Serbian Gypsies speak".
How do you say "nothing"?

Sinte similarly uses či.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Also, the conjunction "and"...
When I asked them, they told me:
Bosnian Gypsies: thaj
Serbian Gypsies: te
Muslim Gypsies: em
I may be wrong with this one

Sinte has un; presumably from German und.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Also, I wanted to ask about some words like
"good"
lačhe, mišto, šukar
how do you say these?

lačho, mišto, šukar. Sinte also has kamlo.

cHr0mChIk wrote:The neuter pronoun "it"...
Bosnian Gypsies said "guva"
However, the rest said "akava"

kōva, which is also used as a {something}, {stuff} or {thing} word.

cHr0mChIk wrote:"How many/How much" ?
Kozom/Kobor - Serbian (including Muslim) Gypsies
Gači - Bosnian Gypsies
Kati/Kaci/Kači/Kaći - something like that - Slovak/Hungarian Gypsies

kici and har bud are used intervaryingly. There may be a difference, but I don't know enough to say what it is.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Do you know the words:
them / phuv / khali / lumja

them {area, region, land, country} and phub {world, land, ground, soil} are Sinte words; lumja I only know by acquaintance.

cHr0mChIk wrote:How do you say the verb "to understand" ?

haivel, which is also used for {know}.

cHr0mChIk wrote:I'm also curious about bodyparts.. how do you say them in your variant?

The head = o šero (i šere)
The hair = i bala (o bal = one strand of hair)
The ear = o kand (i kana)
The eye = i jak (i jaka; a common idiom is krel bare jaka {to be surprised; lit. to make big eyes})
The nose = o nak (i naka)
The mouth, lips = o muj (i muja)
The neck, throat = o mēn (i mēna?)
The shoulders, back = i phik
The hand, arm = o vast (i vasta)
The arm = o musi (i musja)
The finger, nail, toe = o gušto (i gušte)
The foot, leg = o piro (i pire)
The leg = i heri (i herja)

cHr0mChIk wrote:"year"? is it "brš", "breš" or "berš" ?

Definitely berš.

cHr0mChIk wrote:How do you say words like "sky", "city", "shoes", "bread", "little", "big", "work", "word", "life", "death", ..

o bolepen {sky}
o foro {city}
i kirxa {shoes}
o maro {bread}
tikno {little, small}
baro {big}
i buti {work}
o lab {name, word}
o džīpen {life}
o merepen {death}

cHr0mChIk wrote:And do you have special words for month names, or you use international ones like us (januar, februar, mart, etc.)

I don't know if there's any native Sinte names for months, but I don't think there are.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Also, some actually use some other day names same as the tetrađi model:
Tuesday: dujtođi; Thursday: štartođi... etc.

How do you say the names of the week?

Sinte definitely has a similar thing going on:
kurko/šutago {Sunday; week}
dujto dīves/montago {Monday}
trinto dīves {Tuesday}
štarto dīves {Wednesday}
pančto dīves {Thursday}
švento dīves {Friday}
samstago {Saturday}

cHr0mChIk wrote:Also, I wanted to ask you about verb negation. How do you build it in your variant? Which prefix do you use?

No prefix; Sinte uses gar after the verb, or kek before a verb's object (like the difference between German nicht and keine, and to a lesser extent, English n't and no).

cHr0mChIk wrote:Let's talk about question words, here:
What? = So?
How? = Sar?
Why? = Sose? (also soske? soće? sohke?)
Who? = Koj? / Ko[n]?
Where = Kaj?
When? = Kana? (now = akana)
How much = Kozom/Kobor?
Question particle = Dali? (Slavic borrowing) - "dali razumi man?" "dali šuneja?" "dali vakjare/džane romane?"
Do you have a question particle at all? Or you form questions same as in Italian, like a regular sentence, just with different intonation, and a question mark.

hoj {what?}
har {how?}
hoske {why?}
kōn {who?}
kaj {where?}
kāna {when?} (now = kana!)
kici {how much?}
And there are no question particles. Questions are formed either with different intonation, or like in English, French, or German, where the verb goes first.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Could you write a short text in your variant of Romani? I'm curious of actually seeing it in a bigger picture, if you know what I mean - not just through individual words and talking about the grammar.

Not me, but I can look around and get back to you.

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-06-23, 14:39

Znex wrote:This is for Sinte, but since I'm not near fluent, take everything I say below with a pinch of salt.


Wow, thank you very much for your contribution as well! :D

Znex wrote:

Code: Select all

me hom      mer ham
tu hal      tumer han
job/joj hi  jon hi


Wow that's interesting... I didn't know you used different personal pronouns from us.
Here's how they are here:

Code: Select all

SINGULAR:
1. me
2. tu
3. vov/voj
jov/joj

PLURAL:
1. ame[n]
2. tume[n]
3. von/jon


Here, both 3rd person pronouns with "v" and "j" are used. At first I didn't know what was the difference, but upon learning that in Urdu (and other North Indian languages like Punjabi, etc.), they are distal and proximal, I thought the situation is the same in Romani. I don't know if that's correct, though, it was just my own conclusion.

Another interesting thing (besides the already mentioned "h"), it seems that you have a "b" sound where the rest of us have a "v" :D

Znex wrote:Neither; with ē. That may or may not derived from the same source as -eja. (Sinte has contrastive vowel length btw.)

Code: Select all

phenel:
me phenau       mer phenā
tu phenē        tumer phenen
job/joj phenel  jon phenen


Same as in here:

Code: Select all

phenel:
me phenav       amen phena
tu phene        tumen phenen
vov/jov phenel
voj/joj phenel  von/jon phenen


The conjugation is exactly the same. We just also have forms with "a" at the end - phenava, pheneja, phenela, etc.

Znex wrote:rakrom, dom, dikhom, mangom.


Ohh so "rakrom" means "I spoke"?? that's very interesting... so you don't use the verb "vakerel" or anything similar to that, at all? hmm maybe it's the same root... :hmm: :hmm:

Znex wrote:

Code: Select all

phenel:
me phenom       mer phenam
tu phenal       tumer phenan
job/joj phenas  jon phenan


Here, the suffixes for past tense are:

Code: Select all

-for the D verbs-
SG.
1. -đum
2. -đan
3. -đa

PL.
1. đam
2. đen
3. đe

-for the L verbs-
SG.
1. -ljum
2. -ljan
3. -lja

PL.
1. -ljam
2. -ljen
3. -lje


Znex wrote:Sinte does use kamel, but as a future auxiliary verb. eg. Me kamau te chal kōva {I will/I'm going to eat something}.


Oh, so is that the only way to make the future tense? :hmm:

Znex wrote:"s" or "h": Mixed. job hi, tu dikhē, mer phenā, but džijestar, job mangas.
"ć/đ" or "kj/gj": k/g. eg. me rakrau, kerau, gīvau
"č/dž" or "š/ž": č/dž. eg. čhavo, džinau.
"o" or "e" in past tense: o and a. See above.
vowel prothesis: No. eg. lab, šunel, rat, hi.


Wow thank you so much for this, it's so nice to see a comparison, and to see how your variety is like. :D

Znex wrote:Sinte still has some native phrases:
lačho dīves {good day; hello}
dža(n) mo debleha {goodbye; farewell}
(ačen (m)o) debleha {goodbye}
lačho drom {farewell; safe journey, bon voyage}
me parkrau man (paš tute) {thank you}
man khajt- {sorry/I feel sorry}


Oh this was nice.
"Lačho dīves" - we say "Lačho (to) dive" (Bosnian Gypsies palatalize it further so they say "Lačho (ćo) đive" instead) - although "šukar/baxtalo (to) dive" may be more popular/used.
"Dža[n] (mo) debleha" - we say "Dža Devlesa!" (Go with God)
"Ače[n] (mo) debleha" - we say "Ačh Devlesa!" (Stay with God)
"Lačho drom" - sounds the same
"Me parkrau man" - reminds me of "Me palikerav tut" - which I mentioned before (I am thanking you) - although we don't use it here, as I mentioned. Could have the same roots. :hmm:
"Man khajt-"... hmm I don't recognize this one.. I guess we'd say "jašin (i)si mange" for "I'm sorry"... :hmm:

Znex wrote:The head = o šero (i šere)
The hair = i bala (o bal = one strand of hair)
The ear = o kand (i kana)
The eye = i jak (i jaka; a common idiom is krel bare jaka {to be surprised; lit. to make big eyes})
The nose = o nak (i naka)
The mouth, lips = o muj (i muja)
The neck, throat = o mēn (i mēna?)
The shoulders, back = i phik
The hand, arm = o vast (i vasta)
The arm = o musi (i musja)
The finger, nail, toe = o gušto (i gušte)
The foot, leg = o piro (i pire)
The leg = i heri (i herja)


Znex wrote:o bolepen {sky}
o foro {city}
i kirxa {shoes}
o maro {bread}
tikno {little, small}
baro {big}
i buti {work}
o lab {name, word}
o džīpen {life}
o merepen {death}


Thank you again for an more nice comparisons and points of reference. :D

Znex wrote:No prefix; Sinte uses gar after the verb, or kek before a verb's object (like the difference between German nicht and keine, and to a lesser extent, English n't and no).


Ohh... :hmm: :hmm: could you show it through some examples?

Anyway thank you very much for this. It was really awesome and useful. Could you perhaps check out the rest of the posts which we had here recently and write in Sinte how are the other stuff which we spoke about? (if you have time and will, that is :D)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

vijayjohn
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-02, 9:25

I just wanted to say sorry for not saying anything here for so many days. I wanted to try to dig up the materials I have and answer some of your etymological questions and also translate the text you sent me, but all of that will take some time given what else I'm doing here and the fact that I work most days of the week. :) Najis Tuke!

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-02, 10:02

vijayjohn wrote:I just wanted to say sorry for not saying anything here for so many days. I wanted to try to dig up the materials I have and answer some of your etymological questions and also translate the text you sent me, but all of that will take some time given what else I'm doing here and the fact that I work most days of the week. :) Najis Tuke!


Don't worry, brother. Take your time. No hurry. Ov sasto! :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-11, 2:44

Hello there, you fellas which are still subscribed to this topic :lol:

I've been wanting to say and ask a couple of things for a while, however I was waiting for someone else to write/reply and then to write... however, this topic seems to have died (at least only briefly - hopefully)... So I've just decided to go ahead and write what I have to say.

First of all, I'm back to my hometown for about a week or more and I've been hanging out with my Roma friends again. We spoke a bit about Romani dialects and they told me that they speak "Arlisko".

The man which is my friend he speaks Arlisko, however his wife speaks Bugurdžisko. And "Serbian Roma" from my city speak "Čergarsko".

That's actually exactly what I expected after learning about all the different Romani variants and characteristics of each respective one, comparing that to what I hear here, I have come into conclusion that Muslim Gypsies from my city speak Balkan dialect and Serbian Gypsies speak Vlax, I just needed confirmation, and that's just what I got today when I spoke to them.

Then;

They were telling me "so ćereja?" although I'm a man, so it seems that "the variants with -a are feminine" - is not really true :lol: so I still am not sure how that works... forgot to ask them... :hmm: perhaps I should've asked them before writing this message... anyway, I don't want to bore them too much talking about such stuff, so I don't really go into details with them much... so I don't ask them that much..

So, in my hometown (Zrenjanin, Serbia) 3 Romani dialects are spoken (Arlisko, Bugurdžisko, Čergarsko):

► Show Spoiler


Another thing which I wanted to ask is about Kalderaš pronunciation of čh / dž. Are you sure they're /ʂ/ and /ʐ/? I've never heard such a thing. I've thought it was actually /ɕ/ and /ʑ/? That's what I've heard before, but when you said it, it, sort of, confused me at first, and then I accepted it. However, as I am diving more into Kalderaš, I actually believe it indeed is /ɕ/ and /ʑ/... I've never heard any instances of /ʂ/ and /ʐ/ anywhere... Could you perhaps give me some reference for it? Maybe somewhere in literature where it's mentioned or any form of evidence for it? Thank you very much, in advance.


I was thinking about them translating me the story about 3 brothers into Arlisko, however I really didn't want to bore them with it... anyway, maybe sometime I do it...

Hmm what else I wanted to say xD I can't really remember... anyway I hope that's it... if I remember something else I wanna add here, I'll write again hehe... Te aven baxtale, thaj sae šukar želinava tumengje... :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-13, 12:35

Sorry again. :( I'm going to try to see whether I can get myself to write a more proper reply this weekend.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-15, 4:07

vijayjohn wrote:Sorry again. :( I'm going to try to see whether I can get myself to write a more proper reply this weekend.


Na brinine, mo phral. Žurba nane. Na isi hitno... Ked god isi tut volja hem vakti... :D
(Don't worry, my bro. No rush. It's not an emergency... whenever you have will and time...)

I wanted to say that I've spoken to more Roma and they told me there is way more than just 3 different "groups" of Roma in our city. Besides Arlije, Bugurdžije and Čergari, there is also Gurbeti/Džambazi, etc. We also have the ones which we call "Mađarski Cigani" (Hungarian Roma) - they are Catholics, and they speak a different dialect as well (I think it's also a Vlax one... similar to the "Serbian Roma/Čergari/Džambazi" but I haven't spoken with them yet. Also apparently they use Hungarian loanwords and also speak Hungarian as well.

It is quite strange that we have such a Roma diversity within just one city. I guess non-gypsies have no clue about this :lol: to them, they're all the same. It was very interesting to discover this.

Also another thing - I've asked a couple of people about the "-a" suffix in present tense and all of them say there's no difference.

Image

Image

The difference is only in "accent" ? Maybe he wanted to say "dialect" :hmm: :hmm:

Anyway... another thing I wanted to say. I guess Etymology is something which I am curious about the most... I really like it and I'm really interested in it. Anyway, in the present moment I suppose I'm the most focused on Romani language, so I'm currently quite interested in Romani etymology.

Anyway, at the moment I'm interested in particular stuff only... you don't have to bother with all the etymology materials. I'm just curious about some words at the moment - whose etymology I cannot figure out by myself.

I was wondering about times of the day. Some of them are straight-forward. "Day" = "ďive[s]" (or any other variation of it); "Night" = "rat" (with its many variations).

However, Romani doesn't seem to have like a single word for "morning". With every different Roma group I've came in contact with - they use a different word for morning. I was wondering about their etymologies.

* sabaj (they use this one in my city - it's from Turkish sabah - from Arabic صباح)
* tajsa/tasja/tajha/tahja (also means "tomorrow" - from Greek ταχιά)
* teharin (Bosnian Roma were saying this way. I don't know its etymology but I suspect it may also be from Greek)
* javin (found this one all over the literature... I have no clue about its etymology)
* raťaha (found this one in literature as well... seems like native Romani to me.. I suppose... :hmm: :hmm: )
* jutro/rano/zora (from Slavic)
* dimňaca (from Romanian - dimineaţă)
* zloko? (I guess Russian Roma say it this way - the Northern dialect group)
* carla (in Sinte)
* angloplane (Burgenland - along with raťaha)
* anglamismeri (in Lovara and Kalderaš - along with dimňaca and teharin - also used sometimes in Gurbet too)
* anglodilo (Slovak Romani)
* hajnalo (Lovara)
etc.

So I wanted to ask for help in figuring out the etymologies of as many of these Romani words for "morning" we can.

Thank you in advance :D
Ov sasto!
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby Saim » 2018-07-15, 5:37

cHr0mChIk wrote:Na brinine, mo phral. Žurba nane. Na isi hitno... Ked god isi tut volja hem vakti... :D
(Don't worry, my bro. No rush. It's not an emergency... whenever you have will and time...)


Does Romani normally have so many straight-up Serbian words?

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 5:56

No, this is just the variety/ies that cHr0mChIk is familiar with (honestly, it has so many that it sounds more like what my advisor calls a para-Romani: just a European language with a bunch of Romani words in it, like Angloromani except with Serbian instead of English. I'm not sure whether "Serboromani" is the correct term for that or not).

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-15, 14:23

Saim wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:Na brinine, mo phral. Žurba nane. Na isi hitno... Ked god isi tut volja hem vakti... :D
(Don't worry, my bro. No rush. It's not an emergency... whenever you have will and time...)


Does Romani normally have so many straight-up Serbian words?


This is Romani as it is spoken in my city. It has a lot of Slavic influence, yeah. Sometimes I try to speak more "pure" Romani, but then nobody understands me :lol: :lol:

We have many varieties in my city, but all of them are heavily Slavicized. I tried speaking more pure but they kept asking "what is that?" "what does that mean?"

I said "mišto" once and they thought it means "nothing" because it kinda sounds similar to the word "ništo/ništa". When I said "khanči" they didn't understand. When I said "jašin" / "jašin si mange" they didn't understand. They didn't understand javin, teharin... they didn't know skamin... etc.

So I just gave up on speaking a different variety, and started talking to them as they do :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:No, this is just the variety/ies that cHr0mChIk is familiar with (honestly, it has so many that it sounds more like what my advisor calls a para-Romani: just a European language with a bunch of Romani words in it, like Angloromani except with Serbian instead of English. I'm not sure whether "Serboromani" is the correct term for that or not).


I wouldn't really call it Serboromani, and I don't think it's a Para-Romani, because Para-Romani is something different. Para-Romani (like Angloromani, Caló, Scandoromani) is actually an another language, but it has Romani vocabulary.

For example, Angloromani:
“Dik at the mush over there!” (Look at the man over there!)
“Mush jins everything ya rokkerin’ anyway.” ([The] man knows everything you’re saying anyway.)
► Show Spoiler


or, an example of Caló:
“No orobeles, mí dai, por la estipen de la mangue!” (Don’t cry, my mother, for the health of me! – lit. “for my health” - in Spanish language: No llores, madre mía, por la salud de mí! – lit. “por mí salud” )
► Show Spoiler


example of Scandoromani:
“Vi tradar to fåron en vaver divus.” (English: We travel/go to town on another day. ; Swedish: Vi åker till stan en annan dag.)
► Show Spoiler



Para-Romani is one of the things I've been writing about in my paper and I've been quite interested in it.

So, as you can see Para-Romani is an another language which has a lot of Romani vocabulary, but the case with what we speak here - it's opposite. It is the Romani language with a lot of other vocabulary. So I wouldn't classify it as "Serbo-Romani" or however.

Anyway, I've seen a term "Romano-Serbian" being used, but I am not sure whether it's the appropriate term for this which we speak.

Romani language is heavily influenced by other languages. That is also a reason why Roma from different areas cannot understand each other well. In each country the Roma is really heavily influenced by the majority language of that country. One example of it, which I like to chose is the verb "to think":

1. we say "mislinel" (from Slavic misliti)
2. Kalderaš dialect says "gîndisarel" (dialect spoken primarily in Romania - from Romanian: a gândi)
3. Sepečides dialect says "düšündinel" (dialect spoken primarily in Turkey - from Turkish: düşünmek)
4. Sinte dialect says "denkarel" (spoken primarily in Germany - from German: denken)
[this is an another example from the paper I'm writing - when discussing Romani vocabulary]
There seems to be not a "pure" Romani word for the verb "to think"... each country appears to use a loanword from their language. The closest to "pure" Romani is, I suppose: "del (pe[s]) goďi" / "thovel goďi" / "goďarel" from "goďi" = brain.

Anyway... I can try to speak less Slavicized Romani if I want to... and if I am less casual and more formal:

cHr0mChIk wrote:Na brinine, mo phral. Žurba nane. Na isi hitno... Ked god isi tut volja hem vakti... :D


"Či nekežisaves, m'o phral. Graba naj. Naj si hitno... Kana god si tut voľa thaj vŕamja."
(I guess something like that is how they would say it in Kalderaš. Can you confirm, @vijayjohn?)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 14:41

Yeah, I figured it wasn't really a Pararomani! :) It just has so much Serbian that it almost sounds like one, haha. Sorry. :silly:

I'll have to check on that Kalderash expression, but for now, I can say this much: the na at the beginning is correct in all varieties I know of, and you wouldn't use či in an imperative at least in Vlax Romani. *Naj si is ungrammatical in Kalderash because naj by itself already means 'isn't', '(they) aren't', or 'there isn't/aren't'. 'Whenever' in Kalderash I believe is kanagòdi.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-15, 14:47

vijayjohn wrote:I'll have to check on that Kalderash expression, but for now, I can say this much: the na at the beginning is correct in all varieties I know of, and you wouldn't use či in an imperative at least in Vlax Romani. *Naj si is ungrammatical in Kalderash because naj by itself already means 'isn't', '(they) aren't', or 'there isn't/aren't'. 'Whenever' in Kalderash I believe is kanagòdi.


So:

cHr0mChIk wrote:"Na nekež/nekeš!, m'o phral. Graba naj... Naj hitno... Kanagòdi sî tut voľa thaj vŕamja."

better? :lol:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 14:56

Definitely! I think Kalderash also has vàkti though. :) I forgot to say I'm not sure whether it has a word for 'will' or not, but you could say something like kanagòdi ke manges.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-15, 15:03

vijayjohn wrote:Definitely! I think Kalderash also has vàkti though. :) I forgot to say I'm not sure whether it has a word for 'will' or not, but you could say something like kanagòdi ke manges.


I've seen "voľa" and "voja" in Kalderaš. But sure, kanagòdi ke manges may sound more natural, sure. We'd say, in my variety: "ked god mangeja" (kad god hoćeš) or "ked god ka mangeja" (kad god budeš hteo).
[Bugurdžije say kana god (ka) manges though - quite similar to you]


Wow.. Kalderaš has vàkti? That surprised me. I didn't know they had such vocabulary. I've only seen "vŕamja", "doba", "data", "cajto" etc. These are usually the words used/stated for Kalderaš.

Another thing I wanna say. I know that you know what Para-Romani is, and other stuff, etc. (@vijayjohn)

I'm just trying to dedicate this thread to all things Romani. And speak about various kinds of topics regarding Romani, and present them all here.

It's for everybody to read. (although I admit, my posts have been quite long so I suspect many would just skip through most stuff :lol: :lol:)

So, sometimes I may write something that you obviously already know about.

Cheers, and, Te aveja baxtalo. :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-15, 15:21

Makes sense! :D Vi Tu te aves baxtalo! But baxt thaj sastipe :)

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 5:00

cHr0mChIk wrote:I am wondering about the etymology of the word "ake" / "akhe".

Apparently, this most likely comes from a demonstrative pronoun such as akava- (which of course would make it a native Indic word).
vijayjohn wrote:
How do you say words like "sky"

I'll probably have to look this one up. Maybe the same with 'shoes' and 'life'.

So I finally looked it up, and:

sky = o čèri (I guess from Romanian?); also apparently o Del, i.e. 'God'
life = o dživdipe (or o tràjo)
For 'shoe', I have a document called "An English-Romani lexicon" in Ian's course packet for his introductory Romani Studies course that lists the following: "ceruvli, kundra, podźa, tirax."
I thought that the verb vakjerel/vaćerel came from Sanskrit:
वच् [vac] = speaking/uttering/saying
वक्ति [vakti] = to say/speak/utter/proclaim
वाचयति [vacayati] = to cause speaking (causal verb)
वचन [vacan] = word/utterance/speech/promise (this one is used in Hindi as well, I believe - وچن in Urdu)

Correct, but in Peter Bakker's "Etymological glossary of Indic words in Romani" (which was a work in progress), he says that while vakjarel etc. probably comes from vākya 'speech, words' in Sanskrit/Old Indo-Aryan, "(f)orms like rakerel, vrakerel perh[aps] [come from the] prefixed form, cf. OIA pra-vac- 'to proclaim, announce, mention', nirukta 'uttered, pronounced, expressed'.
Wow, this is pretty interesting stuff. However, I don't think any Gypsies still believe in such? Maybe it's part of their tradition and something connected to their culture, but I don't think it still exists today. Anyway, I don't know...

I'm pretty sure they do, but they just don't think of it as a religion. I know for sure that Ian has such beliefs anyway. :P
vijayjohn wrote:Makes sense. It's an athematic word anyway, i.e. a loanword (maybe from Romanian?).


I have absolutely no clue about its etymology. Couldn't find anything. Also I don't know any word, in any Balkan language which sounds remotely close to it.... :hmm: (maybe you could check in your materials, if you'll have time and will... anyway it's not that important, so nevermind :lol:)

I just realized that I probably used to have a source that I could consult for something like this but I had to return it to Ian when I finished grad school.
vijayjohn wrote:Sure! I'll probably be three times as confused by it as you were by my text, but it's worth a try anyway. :D


A'ight... So, as they like to say in American movies: Here goes nothing :lol: :

Na džanava so te pišinav... ake, odlučinava te pišiv o akava diveste... So me kerđum adive...
Me siklino uštava ko dešu jekh, andar i bući. Ćerava popodne, andar o fakulteti...
Ama adive uštljum ko dešu duj sati, te džav ki Džamija, adaleske isi Džuma.
Majpalal, ovljum ko bankake, em onda vratinđum e sobeste.

Adive odmarav 8-) Nego, mangljum te phučavtu, dali šaj te koristina akava tema te prevodina đilja? ili mora te otvorina nova tema? Uglavnom, mangljum te phenav - so kerđam baše Bajramsko dive :D :

Posle Bajramsko namazi, amen đilavđan iljahije (amaro islamsko hor), em jekh iljahija bušel "Jusuf, kaj sijan?" - priča o resuleske Jakupi a.s.; hem leskoro čhavo Jusuf a.s. kana Jakup a.s. izgubinđa leskoro čhavo... Vov ovilja bhut bibaxtalo... Mangljum te zumave te prevodine akava tekst: "Sao dobor vakti dovaja ja kerđa, hem taro Allahi, Jusufe rodinđa. 'Jusuf, Jusuf, kaj sijan tu?' Rovel o Jakupi, hem phenela: 'Jusuf, kaj sijan?' Jusufe fordinđa o phral ko bunari, i košulja anđa, oj sa ratvalji. Bhut raća na suća, Jakupi runđa. O leskoro rojba ole kořjarđa. Jusuf, Jusuf, kaj sijan tu?' Rovel o Jakupi, hem phenela: 'Jusuf, kaj sijan? O Allah mazumi na mukhel Resule, palo le dobor brš, dikhel e Jusufe!"

hahah so... this is my variety of Romani... that's how I speak it... I'm not a native speaker though, so there could be mistakes still... anyway, I wanted to say, that I've decided to use "ć" and "đ"... just for the sake of more variation and making it more interesting (since I know that you use "k/t" and "g/d" in your variety :D) - although in speaking I'd rather pronounce them as kj and gj. :D

Okay, I'm going to attempt to translate what you wrote into English even though I'm having some trouble understanding some of it. :P

I don't know what to write...here you go, I'm deciding to write about today...what I did today...
I usually get up at 11 for work. I leave at noon for the university.
But today, I got up at 12 to go to the mosque because it's Friday.
Later, I went to the bank, and then I came back to my room.

Today, I'm taking a break, but I meant to ask you, can we use this thread to translate things? Or do we have to open a new thread? I mainly wanted to tell you what I did for Eid al-Fitr.

After the Eid prayers, the Iljahijas (our Islamic choir) sang for us, and one Iljahija asked, "Joseph, where are you?" - a story about the prophet Jacob a.s. and his son Joseph a.s. when Jacob a.s. lost his son...He became very unlucky (unhappy?)...I wanted to try to translate this text: "All the good times had already passed, all because of Allah, Joseph's guardian. 'Joseph, Joseph, where are you?' cried Jacob, and he said, 'Joseph, where are you?' Joseph led his brother to the well, and he pushed him in, and everything was dark. Jacob didn't sleep for many nights; he wept. His crying irritated him. 'Joseph, Joseph, where are you?' cried Jacob, and he said, 'Joseph, where are you?' God tried not to put down a prophet. After a good year, he saw Joseph!"
Another thing which I wanted to ask is about Kalderaš pronunciation of čh / dž. Are you sure they're /ʂ/ and /ʐ/?

Yep.
I've never heard such a thing. I've thought it was actually /ɕ/ and /ʑ/? That's what I've heard before, but when you said it, it, sort of, confused me at first, and then I accepted it. However, as I am diving more into Kalderaš, I actually believe it indeed is /ɕ/ and /ʑ/... I've never heard any instances of /ʂ/ and /ʐ/ anywhere...

Lol I've never heard that before. :P
Could you perhaps give me some reference for it? Maybe somewhere in literature where it's mentioned or any form of evidence for it? Thank you very much, in advance.

A Handbook of Vlax Romani, p. 39 (he also makes some other references to this in the book, e.g. p. 51 where he talks about how čh and are pronounced in Machvano Vlax, i.e. as [ʈr] and [ɖr] respectively!).

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-16, 12:29

vijayjohn wrote:Apparently, this most likely comes from a demonstrative pronoun such as akava- (which of course would make it a native Indic word).


"Indexical devices that encode definiteness (articles and demonstratives) are
extremely diverse across the dialects. In demonstratives, this is an outcome of
the frequent need to reinforce deictic focus through combinations with other
deictic stems, or with place deictics (thus Early Romani adaj, akaj ‘here, precisely
here’ and odoj, okoj ‘there, precisely there’ in combination with -va
give rise to akava, adava etc.; cf. Matras 2002, Ch 5)."

[Elšík, V., & Matras, Y. (2006). Markedness and language change: The Romani sample (Vol. 32). Walter de Gruyter.]

vijayjohn wrote:sky = o čèri (I guess from Romanian?); also apparently o Del, i.e. 'God'
life = o dživdipe (or o tràjo)
For 'shoe', I have a document called "An English-Romani lexicon" in Ian's course packet for his introductory Romani Studies course that lists the following: "ceruvli, kundra, podźa, tirax."


Oh, sure. Yes I've seen o del used as sky before, it doesn't surprise me anyway, because I believe it was used the same way in Sanskrt as well. Arlisko, it's "devel", though; and Bugurdžisko "nebo". Only Čergari/Gurbeti/Džambazi use words like ćeri, del, havaja, etc (if I'm not mistaken).

I believe ćeri is from Romanian as well.

Correct, but in Peter Bakker's "Etymological glossary of Indic words in Romani" (which was a work in progress), he says that while vakjarel etc. probably comes from vākya 'speech, words' in Sanskrit/Old Indo-Aryan, "(f)orms like rakerel, vrakerel perh[aps] [come from the] prefixed form, cf. OIA pra-vac- 'to proclaim, announce, mention', nirukta 'uttered, pronounced, expressed'.


Oh, that's pretty interesting. Well, it's still utlimately the same root, isn't it? The *vak/vac :hmm: :hmm:

I'm pretty sure they do, but they just don't think of it as a religion. I know for sure that Ian has such beliefs anyway. :P


Fascinating. Maybe it's just that our Roma here don't believe in it, then. :hmm:

I don't know what to write...So, I'm deciding (or I decide - probably should've written odlučinđum better.. but this works as well :lol:) to write about this day...what I did today...
I usually get up at 11 for work (or because of work). I am working at noon, because of the university.
But today, I got up at 12 to go to the mosque because it's Friday.
Later, I went to the bank, and then I came back to my room.

Today, I'm taking a break (or resting), anyway, I wanted to ask you, can we use this thread to translate songs? Or do we have to open a new thread? Anyway, I wanted to tell you what we did for Eid al-Fitr.

After the Eid prayers, we sang/performed nasheeds (our Muslim choir), and one nasheed was called: "Joseph, where are you?" - a story about the prophet Jacob a.s. and his son Joseph a.s. when Jacob a.s. lost his son...He became very unhappy/sad (he was very unhappy/unlucky)...I wanted you (I forgot to add "tut" :lol:) to try to translate this text: "All that time he was praying (lit. making du'a); and asking for Joseph from God. Joseph, Joseph, where are you? Jacob cries, and speaks: "Joseph, where are you?" (His own) Brother threw Joseph in a well; and he brought his shirt, covered in blood. Many sleepless nights Jacob had spent crying. And from his crying, he lost his sight. Joseph, Joseph, where are you? Jacob cries, and speaks: "Joseph, where are you?" God does not allow sorrow to the Prophet. After all those years, he had seen Joseph again!"


You were actually really close, just the Nasheed you completely misunderstood - so I just translated it on my own xD. Anyway, I also published a translation of this nasheed on this site:
Jusuf, kaj sijan?

And here's a bonus from me: https://vocaroo.com/i/s02Kq4YlhPYR
:lol:

Lol I've never heard that before. :P


Have you ever spoken to Romanian Roma?
I'm absolutely sure that it's /ɕ/ and /ʑ/ in Kalderaš; however, in Lovara it's /ʂ/ and /ʐ/ indeed.
I was pretty sure I've seen it in some literature as well, however, I cannot find a reference in any book/script/paper/article I have at the moment; the only things I can state at the moment are these (although I'm not sure how reliable you may consider them):
1. This page in Romani Project Graz
2. Romlex Lexical Database - which has been insanely useful for me, for the vocabulary. When you chose Kalderaš, you'll see the čh / ž words always being written with ś and ź; and in Lovara: š and ž.
3. Any given Romanian Gypsy song :lol: - you'll hear clear /ɕ/ and /ʑ/ :lol:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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księżycowy
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Re: Romani

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-16, 14:46

Do either of you guys know of any good textbooks (preferably with audio) to learn Romani with?

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 18:46

There is this, which I have in paperback, but it was really difficult for me to get, and I think it's actually available at my university library anyway. :P There is also an online course a fellow UniLanger once pointed out to me, but I completely forgot the URL and don't quite remember which variety it teaches, either.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Oh, that's pretty interesting. Well, it's still utlimately the same root, isn't it? The *vak/vac :hmm: :hmm:

Yep! :)
I'm pretty sure they do, but they just don't think of it as a religion. I know for sure that Ian has such beliefs anyway. :P


Fascinating. Maybe it's just that our Roma here don't believe in it, then. :hmm:

Maybe it could have something to do with how well integrated Roma are in different places (i.e. when they're not as well integrated into the surrounding society, they're more likely to believe things like this)?
You were actually really close, just the Nasheed you completely misunderstood - so I just translated it on my own xD.

Thanks for all of this, including the recording! :mrgreen:
Have you ever spoken to Romanian Roma?

Haha, not really. :silly: Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to come across Roma here even though there are actually quite a few because they keep such a low profile. I would say they're discriminated against here just as much as in Europe, but the nature of the discrimination is different. I don't think I would have ever met any here if not for Ian.
I'm absolutely sure that it's /ɕ/ and /ʑ/ in Kalderaš; however, in Lovara it's /ʂ/ and /ʐ/ indeed.

Oh, maybe it's Lovara then. That's definitely a possibility. I'm good at confusing closely related linguistic varieties with each other. :lol:


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