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ainurakne wrote:I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."
ainurakne wrote:I have always had the impression, that the verb viitsima in negative sentences is the main thing
ainurakne wrote:I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."
ainurakne wrote:oskama - to know how to, to have an ability to
(oskus - learned skill, learned ability, know-how)
Yes! I would choose very carefully to whom I would say "ma ei viitsi ...". I think it's okay in casual conversations and with people you know, though.Naava wrote:When I read that sentence, I thought it sounded kinda rude but I wasn't sure if it's just me. Or at least ruder than the English translation.
Kind of. When you put it like that, I can sense that difference between them. But I think it's pretty usual to use "sinuga" without overemphasizing the other person in this context.Naava wrote:Do you think there's a difference between "ma ei viitsi sinuga vaielda" and "ma ei viitsi vaielda"? Imo the first one sounds like the reason why I don't want to argue is you, that you're not worth it, while the second one is more like "I don't want to argue". Am I wrong?
Haha... but there's solid logic in that.Naava wrote:Storytime! We had a lot of grammar tests and lessons and exercises etc during the first year of uni, and one of the recurring phrases was "I can English". I couldn't understand why anyone would say that until I realised that it's a somewhat direct translation of "ma oskan inglise keelt".
I think not yet. This should have pretty much the same meanings as listed in Wiktionary under the Finnish jaksaa.Naava wrote:Has anyone mentioned jaksama yet?
That's interesting indeed. I guess the two languages are more similar than they often seem.Naava wrote:Out of curiosity, I tried to translate the küljes-sentences into Finnish because we don't use "kyljessä" as much as Estonian uses "küljes". I noticed that there's always inessive when Estonian has küljes:
Yes, it's plural.Naava wrote:Btw, isn't majade plural?
In Estonian you can also say "autod külg küljes kinni". And the equivalent for "vieri vieressä" could be maybe "külg külje kõrval", or "külg külje vastas" if they are really tightly packed.Naava wrote:"Auto auto küljes kinni" is a bit different: I'd say "autot vieri vieressä". Well, that's inessive, too, but it's more like a fixed expression or something. I think you could also say "autot kylki kyljessä", though.
Linguaphile wrote:(if I remember correctly, he said my claim that Estonian uses compounds more freely than English was "nonsense" and said my arguments sounded like those made by an "average Joe with no linguistics background" or something like that)
linguoboy wrote:Are you seriously not recognising the fact that not all grammatically compound words in English are written as single orthographic words? I expect that kind of error from the average Joe; I don't expect it from someone with any sort of background in linguistics.
linguoboy wrote:Linguaphile wrote:(if I remember correctly, he said my claim that Estonian uses compounds more freely than English was "nonsense" and said my arguments sounded like those made by an "average Joe with no linguistics background" or something like that)
ProTip: All the words I wrote are still there, so you don't have to rely on your memory alone. In context, what I said was:linguoboy wrote:Are you seriously not recognising the fact that not all grammatically compound words in English are written as single orthographic words? I expect that kind of error from the average Joe; I don't expect it from someone with any sort of background in linguistics.
I won't say we ever came to any kind of agreement on this, but after you looked at the literature on English compounding, your understanding did shift closer to mine.
Linguaphile wrote:vijayjohn wrote:Linguaphile wrote:Except that in Estonian, compound words are often created ad hoc and won't be found in any dictionary, almost the same way other languages might use circumlocution or descriptions.
I know English is not Estonian, but they are in English, too. How many dictionaries contain "abso-bloody-lutely," "abso-bloody-exactly," or any one of various Twitter hashtags that exist these days?
The difference is that those English words (or hashtags!) sound contrived and we don't really consider them "real words," or when we do, the older generation is rolling their eyes about it. The compounds created in Estonian sound natural and no different from any other word (or so native speakers tell me). I doubt you could find anyone who would tell you that "abso-bloody-lutely" is formed in a linguistically acceptable way for formal speech, for example. In English it's considered a type of slang, but in Estonian it's just the way the language works.
linguoboy wrote:Sorry, but this is all nonsense.
First of all, there's nothing unique about Estonian compounding. English forms nonce compounds at least as freely as Estonian does.
Yes!ainurakne wrote:I have always had the impression, that the verb viitsima in negative sentences is the main thing
Naava wrote:ainurakne wrote:I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."
When I read that sentence, I thought it sounded kinda rude but I wasn't sure if it's just me. Or at least ruder than the English translation.
Do you think there's a difference between "ma ei viitsi sinuga vaielda" and "ma ei viitsi vaielda"?
Imo the first one sounds like the reason why I don't want to argue is you, that you're not worth it, while the second one is more like "I don't want to argue".
Naava wrote:Linguaphile has used singular in English but I don't know if it was a typo or if I'm wrong. )
linguoboy wrote:I understand that the point of this thread is just to point up some contrasts between how certain things are expressed in each language (and I'm finding that discussion very interesting), but I still bristle at the suggestion that two words in different language ever represent a "true match". The closest you can come to that is with specialised technical terms (and even then there may be sociolectal issues). Otherwise there are always instances where one will not be an appropriate translation for the other. How many usages of "come" or "suggest" can you think of which can't be found for their closest respective Estonian equivalents?
linguoboy wrote:I understand that the point of this thread is just to point up some contrasts between how certain things are expressed in each language (and I'm finding that discussion very interesting), but I still bristle at the suggestion that two words in different language ever represent a "true match". The closest you can come to that is with specialised technical terms (and even then there may be sociolectal issues). Otherwise there are always instances where one will not be an appropriate translation for the other. How many usages of "come" or "suggest" can you think of which can't be found for their closest respective Estonian equivalents?
come VERB (came)
1 (no object, usually with adverbial of direction) Move or travel towards or into a place thought of as near or familiar to the speaker. tulema
1.1 Arrive at a specified place. saabuma
1.2 (of a thing) reach or extend to a specified point. jõudma
1.3 (be coming) Approach. tulema
1.4 Travel in order to be with a specified person, to do a specified thing, or to be present at an event. tulema
1.5 (with present participle) Join someone in participating in a specified activity or course of action.kaasa tulema
1.6 (come along/on) Make progress; develop. arenema
1.7i (imperative) Said to someone when correcting or reassuring someone. nonoh
2 (no object) Occur; happen; take place. juhtuma
2.1 Be heard, perceived, or experienced. kuulama, tundma
2.2 (with adverbial, of a quality) become apparent or noticeable through actions or performance. näitama
2.3 (come across" or British "over" or US "off ) appear or sound in a specified way; give a specified impression. muljet jätma
2.4 (of a thought or memory) enter one's mind. meelde tulema
3 (no object, with complement) Take or occupy a specified position in space, order, or priority. ette jõudma
3.1 Achieve a specified place in a race or contest. finišeerima
4 (no object, with complement) Pass into a specified state, especially one of separation or disunion.
4.1 (come to/into) Reach or be brought to a specified situation or result. saama
4.2 (with infinitive) Eventually reach a certain condition or state of mind. jõudma
5 (no object, with adverbial) Be sold, available, or found in a specified form. saadaval olema
6 (informal, no object) Have an orgasm. orgasmi saama
1. (eesmärgile osutamata:) lähenedes liikuma. a. (inimese v. looma kohta). b. (sõiduki vm. liikuva objekti kohta2. eesmärgipäraselt lähenedes kuhugi (v. kusagilt) liikuma. a. (seoses kohaga). b. (seoses tegevusega).
3. nähtavale ilmuma, nähtavaks saama, esile ilmuma.
4. kostma, kuulda olema, kuuldavaks saama. . ||(laulu, jutu kohta).
5. (seoses seisundi, oleku v. olukorra kujunemise ja muutumisega). a. (elusolendiga toimuvate füüsiliste, füsioloogiliste, psüühiliste jm. protsesside kohta). b. (elutute objektide, nähtuste vms. kohta).
6. (hrl. ajaliselt:) saabuma, pärale v. kätte jõudma. | PILTL. Nüüd on tulnud minu tund teile tasuda. Paistab, et järg on meie kätte tulnud. Taat arvas, et tema (viimne) tunnike on tulnud 'hakkab surema'. || (tervitusväljendis saabunud. || PILTL (lapse sünni kohta).
7. tekkima, ilmuma, sugenema, sündima. PILTL (kusagilt pärinemise, lähtumise kohta).
8. ‹hrl. 3. pöördes› saama (6. täh.), kujunema. a. osutab mingile saavutusele, tulemusele. b. (seoses omadusega).
9. juhtuma, toimuma, aset leidma.
10. tingitud olema, johtuma, tulenema.
11. (tee, jõe jne. kohta:) kulgema.
12. ‹hrl. ma-infinitiivis› kusagilt ära, mujale siirduma, (mõnikord ainult öeldisverbi tugevdavalt:) ära.
13. ‹üksnes 3. isikus da-infinitiiviga› vaja olema, kohustatud v. sunnitud olema, pidama.
14. ‹ka eitavalt› esineb püsiühendeis, mis väljendavad kinnitust, möönmist.
15. osutab millelegi tulevikus toimuvale v. osaks langevale, sageli täh. ‘saab olema’.
tahtmist omama, vaevaks võtma, vaevuma, hoolima (midagi teha)
ainurakne wrote:oskama - to know how to, to have an ability to
(oskus - learned skill, learned ability, know-how)
For example "oskan lugeda", "oskan ujuda", "oskan eesti keelt (rääkida)" ...
But could be also "oskan kuhugi minna", "oskan aidata" ...
I guess, this would be the best translation. Although oskan aidata is not exactly the same as võin aidata or saan aidata.Linguaphile wrote:... I can help
Yes, this is a word whose existence I often miss in English.Linguaphile wrote:Your oskama example makes me also think of the different usages of sõitma, which is basically "to move by means other than walking" ...
the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another
ainurakne wrote:I guess, this would be the best translation. Although oskan aidata is not exactly the same as võin aidata or saan aidata.Linguaphile wrote:... I can help
ainurakne wrote:Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another
But not having it in English is weird, since kahjurõõm on ju kõige suurem rõõm.
I guess this is pretty much it.Linguaphile wrote:Maybe "I'm able to help." To me oskan aidata has more of an implication that "I know what I'm doing, you're in good hands with my help," but I don't know if that's right.
I see. Is it a common word?Linguaphile wrote:Yeah, we borrowed it from German too, the difference is that we just kept it as schadenfreude. All we did is take away the capital letter in English, while Estonian translated the parts. Anyway, you can use schadenfreude in English too.
ainurakne wrote:I see. Is it a common word?Linguaphile wrote:Yeah, we borrowed it from German too, the difference is that we just kept it as schadenfreude. All we did is take away the capital letter in English, while Estonian translated the parts. Anyway, you can use schadenfreude in English too.
ainurakne wrote: I guess, this would be the best translation. Although oskan aidata is not exactly the same as võin aidata or saan aidata.
Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another
ainurakne wrote:Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another
But not having it in English is weird, since kahjurõõm on ju kõige suurem rõõm.
Linguaphile wrote:We have the noun schadenfreude in English, but not the whole noun/verb/adjective/adverb "complete collection."
linguoboy wrote:Linguaphile wrote:We have the noun schadenfreude in English, but not the whole noun/verb/adjective/adverb "complete collection."
"schadenfreudy" is attested in published works going back at least a decade. There's even a popular podcast named "Feelin' Schadenfreudy". The use of "schadenfreude" as a verb (e.g. "I haven't schadenfreuded this hard since Kelsey Grammar fell off stage.") goes back almost as far. Both of these usages are informal, whereas the noun schadenfreude can be used in all registers.
A formal synonym of schadenfreude is "epicaricacy", from which is derived the formal (and extremely rare) adjective form "epicaricatic".
Viitsima = to feel like doing something ('ma ei viitsi' = I don't feel like it, I can't be bothered)
Prantsis wrote:Another possible translation:
(negative) to not be able to resolve/decide to do something
(affirmative) to be ready to do something
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