Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-07, 15:29

I just added a poll to my thread in the Hebrew forum. I probably should have done that before. Thanks for reminding me Linguaphile. :)

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Woods » 2018-03-07, 16:26

Irusia wrote:
Woods wrote:Guys, please don't merge the Catalan forum with the Romanian either :D

Catalan has the chances of becoming the language of an independent nation (which means more people will start learning it), and if you take Romanian as a standalone forum down, this would only turn people off from learning it.

Catalan would only make sense together with other Occitano-Romance languages like the ones spoken in France (and in Italy, according to Wikipedia). Romanian is very far apart from all of this.

I am also against merging Romanian with Catalan. Maybe you haven't seen, but I proposed including smaller Eastern Romance languages into the Romanian forum and smaller West Romance onces into the Catalan forum as an alternative, thus making them "Eastern Romance" and "Minority Western Romance" forums. What do you think about it?
I don't mind having Catalan and Romanian as separate forums, but if we're going to create a place for other minority Romance languages, it's better not to mix Western Romance with Eastern Romance at least.

I wasn't aware there was such think as "Easter Romance Languages" indeed and if somebody used such a term in a conversation with me, I might figure out they meant Romanian, but I would possibly think "Italian" or something like that. So I don't think it's a good idea in terms of recognising what the forum is about.

I would definitely keep Catalan as a standalone forum and if it needed to be merged with anything, as I said, that in my opinion could only be Occitan, Valencian etc. - i.e. other languages that are practically the same.

I think Romanian would also deserve its own forum, even if it's not that active (I've probably never visited this forum, so I don't really know - but if one day I started learning it, do you think I would figure I should search for it in something called "Eastern Romance Langauges"? And why creating such a forum, if there are no other such languages than Romanian (well, according to Wikipedia there are two more, including one spoken in Bulgaria, but I've never ever heard of such a thing!)

It's also got 24 million speakers, which is a lot.


Irusia wrote:
Woods wrote:Icelandic and Faroese are very different though...

Yes, we can probably keep them separate. But it seems that they're not very active, so what about having common Icelandic-Faroese forum?

I meant to say that they're different from other Scandinavian languages. I don't know how different from each other they are. I would agree on merging them, but I don't write in these forums so far, so you should ask the ones that do.

I would agree on creating a Scandinavian Languages forum for Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, but I don't think the guys from the Swedish forum will agree. I myself am mostly active in the Swedish forum, because the Danish hasn't got almost any visitors, and I don't know any Norwegian. But if somebody writes in the Danish forum, I respond, and I think the Norwegian forum is active enough.


Irusia wrote:
Woods wrote:Are there any ideas of making a separate forum for a language that doesn't have one? I'm for more separate-language forums and fewer common ones.

As far as I know, there are no such suggestions currently. I proposed making a separate forum for Albanian, but it seems that everyone else is against it.

I will support you for creating the Albanian forum!

Also one day I remember I was surprised there was no Armenian forum, and somebody explained to me that there weren't enough users in the forum, so they removed it... I would definitely keep it!


Irusia wrote:Another question: what do you think about the future of the Bulgarian forum?
There were three variants proposed, as far as I know:
1. Creating a Slavic forum and merging there all the Slavic forums which aren't active enough (I suppose it includes Bulgarian)
2. South Slavic forum
3. Bulgarian + Macedonian (+Slovenian?)

Bulgarian + Macedonian is okay, however I'm one of those Bulgarians, along with all Bulgarian academia, who do not recognise this messed up dialect as a separate language. Also I don't know if there are any Macedonians in this forum and if they would agree, and also there's no Macedonian forum to date, so why would we create one if there's no interest and no speakers?

Slovenian is much more like Serbo-Croatian, Slovak and other languages from the Western Balkans. In short, Bulgarian is very different than other Slavic languages and I would prefer to keep it apart. I don't think people who are interested in Bulgarian are also interested in Serbian, Slovenian and so on. I would even say Bulgarian is closer to Russian (historically, culturally etc.) than to those - because Russian was compulsory here at some point, because we share the Bulgarian alphabet etc.)


Irusia wrote:Btw, thank you very much for joining the discussion and sharing your opinion!

You're welcome!

Even though I don't think it's very useful time for me to participate in this discussion, I'd rather go learn some language instead :) However, I had to join because I just started writing (kind of) more actively in the Finnish forum and I saw that it's being threatened :cry:

And I would also I would like to defend my own language Bulgarian's own forum ;)

I think you also just joined in, so let's make it active - it's up to you ;)

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby aaakknu » 2018-03-07, 16:47

Woods wrote:[...] And I would also I would like to defend my own language Bulgarian's own forum ;)

I think you also just joined in, so let's make it active - it's up to you ;)

As I've already said, I'm in favor of keeping separate as many forums as possible. Some people proposed even greater mergers and I tried to find a compromise by suggesting smaller changes and mergers. Of course I am with you about keeping Bulgarian forum separate as well as Ukrainian and other subforums.

But there is one other thing we need to consider. As far as I understand, we decided to get rid of the "Other languages" subforum, so we need to find a place for all those languages somewhere else, and that's why we're trying to group languages.
Last edited by aaakknu on 2018-03-07, 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-07, 17:23

I still honestly don't understand the rationale behind merging. Pixels are cheap. It's not like we have to devote an actual space or time slot in the real world to each named language. Moreover, future usage is difficult to predict. Some forums lie dormant for months and then burst with activity when you have one or two active learners. The fewer people are on Unilang in general, the more unpredictable it gets what will have traffic and what won't.

As Woods says, a moderator can check two or three forums just as easily as one. I feel like we're proposing solutions to problems that don't actually exist.
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-07, 17:31

What do you suggest we do with the "Other Languages" section (which I affectionately call the Trash Bin) then? Nothing? Or make a shit ton of subforums? (Maybe I'm misreading you?)

It sounds like a lot of us think it is a problem of some sort. It's just that we're getting caught up in the details.

I follow your thought of how it's basically pointless to talk about future traffic, as it's impossible to predict. Could the Catalan forum (for example) become booming with activity, sure? But it could just as equally become deader than a door nail.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-07, 17:40

księżycowy wrote:What do you suggest we do with the "Other Languages" section (which I affectionately call the Trash Bin) then? Nothing? Or make a shit ton of subforums? (Maybe I'm misreading you?)

So it's basically a discussion about how to organise the trash bin that existing subfora are getting dragged into?

księżycowy wrote:It sounds like a lot of us think it is a problem of some sort. It's just that we're getting caught up in the details.

That's in no small part because the principles haven't been firmly established.

księżycowy wrote:I follow your thought of how it's basically pointless to talk about future traffic, as it's impossible to predict. Could the Catalan forum (for example) become booming with activity, sure? But it could just as equally become deader than a door nail.

Either way how is this a problem? Iván doesn't seem to mind moderating it and, even without it, the Language-specific Forums page would still be crowded af. Merging it into something more general would only make it harder to find for the people who could make it more active.
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-07, 17:49

linguoboy wrote:So it's basically a discussion about how to organise the trash bin that existing subfora are getting dragged into?

In a nutshell, yes.

That's in no small part because the principles haven't been firmly established.

Exactly. And I completely agree with your suggestions further upstream.

Either way how is this a problem? Iván doesn't seem to mind moderating it and, even without it, the Language-specific Forums page would still be crowded af. Merging it into something more general would only make it harder to find for the people who could make it more active.

I certainly don't find it a problem. I mean managing more than one forum. Then again, my one (bigger, ironically) forum is dead af most of the time.

It seems to be coming more from the admins than anyone else. From what I understand anyway.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Antea » 2018-03-07, 18:58

Just a question, then. Why instead of merging forums don’t we create specific ones for those who are in the “cajón de sastre”, like for example, the Uralic forum?

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby h34 » 2018-03-07, 20:30

Sorry to barge in with a comment on something that was mentioned much earlier, concerning the activity on the Estonian forum:

Irusia wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Aurinĭa wrote:Several also have threads last posted in years ago still on the first page. I can't call that active

I just realized something though: one reason for that is that on the Estonian forum at least, we tend to put new questions into the "Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian" thread rather than creating a new thread for them each time. So, the old threads don't get pushed off the first page as fast as they would if we created new threads more often. In fact, a few months ago when we had a poster who kept creating new threads, she was literally asked not to do that and asked to put all of her questions in one thread. Obviously, we were not aware that the number of recently-created threads could be used as a measure for whether or not the board was active enough to keep. We just kept adding new questions to the old threads.

And I also merged all her threads into one. If I knew that the number of threads would be used as a criteria for merging or keeping forums, I wouldn't have done this.
I don't think it's a good criteria.

I always had the impression that the Estonian forum was very active, and if 'activity' is defined by the number of recent posts and active threads, it is currently at least as active as the German forum. If I counted correctly, there have been around 85 new posts (on 10 threads) on the Estonian forum since 1 January 2018, compared to around 80 new posts (on 14 threads) on the German forum.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-08, 0:42

Yserenhart wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Yserenhart wrote:The impression I got was that most people were accepting of the name given.

It's not like we have much of a choice.

Sure you do, make a poll. Give the options of the two names, and also an option for indifference. Use the results to ask
the other admins for a name change. Doesn't mean it'll happen, but if you can make a convincing enough argument and have majority support specifically for that name, it's more likely.

Whereas all the admins have to do is make a snap decision without consulting anyone else and no one can do anything about it, regardless of any polls or discussion on this forum.
You didn't say everything about the name, you just said everything. That's what is insulting.

How you choose to interpret and react to my words is not my problem.
księżycowy wrote:It sounds like a lot of us think it is a problem of some sort. It's just that we're getting caught up in the details.

Tbh I'm not aware of how exactly it's a problem, at least given what linguoboy just said, but (as you probably know) the mods have complained about this several times and used it as an excuse for not creating subforums and/or for merging entire subforums into one thread.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Yserenhart » 2018-03-08, 0:52

vijayjohn wrote:
You didn't say everything about the name, you just said everything. That's what is insulting.

How you choose to interpret and react to my words is not my problem.

It is your problem if you omit important words to create an ambiguous or a misleading/dishonest statement. The phrasing you used does not lend itself to an interpretation that limits the scope to just the name of the forum, but instead implies that no part of what was discussed was implemented.
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-08, 0:56

Yserenhart wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
You didn't say everything about the name, you just said everything. That's what is insulting.

How you choose to interpret and react to my words is not my problem.

It is your problem if you omit important words to create an ambiguous or a misleading/dishonest statement.

You're not the arbiter of what is "ambiguous," "misleading," or "dishonest."
The phrasing you used does not lend itself to an interpretation that limits the scope to just the name of the forum, but instead implies that no part of what was discussed was implemented.

Yes it does. You're just interpreting it that way.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-08, 0:59

vijayjohn wrote:Tbh I'm not aware of how exactly it's a problem, at least given what linguoboy just said, but (as you probably know) the mods have complained about this several times and used it as an excuse for not creating subforums and/or for merging entire subforums into one thread.

I'm so confuzzled right now. I can't even.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-08, 1:00

Specifically about something I said in that quote?

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-08, 1:02

I'm not even sure, to be honest. I don't know wtf is going on anymore. :P

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-08, 1:19

Fair enough. It's easy to get lost in this thread!

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-08, 1:24

I have a feeling I won't be around for a few days....

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby atalarikt » 2018-03-08, 2:51

Karavinka wrote:This is long, so I'll give my best shot. ☆ means I want to make a change, ★ means I agree. But first and foremost, let's deal with what we need to merge/purge before splitting NAIL, CSAIL and African. Doing too many things at once can get very confusing.

★ Merge Icelandic, Faroese, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish to North Germanic. Will include any other regional variant which may be considered as languages by some (-4)
English and German stay
★ Afrikaans, Dutch and Frisian merge into West Germanic. Will host any other minor WGerm such as Yiddish, Scots, Luxembourgish (-2)
★ Georgian expanded to Caucasian. I suggest adding Armenian here as well.
☆ Hebrew expanded to Semitic. While South Semitic-Ethiopic can certainly stay in African for their geography, let's be kind to Modern South Arabian as well.
☆ Let's keep French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian as their own things, while adding a Romance Forum. Maybe expand Romanian to the other Romance.
Korean and Japanese can stay as such, I don't see much point changing the names.
Kurdish and Persian could stay. These two have some dedicated learners. I suggest Southwest Asian as a merger group from all other Iranian and non-Semitic languages. (+1)
Australian, Austronesian and Papuan can stay the same, whether changing the name to Pacific or not.
★ Name change: Pidgins and Creoles
★ Sami expanded to Uralic
★ New: Sign. I'm not sure if it makes sense to group them with Pidgins and Creoles. (+1)
South Asian could keep its name, I'm not sure how obvious Desi would be to some visitors. Maybe Indic and include Romani and Tibetan.
Russian should definitely stay as such, North Asian could become its thing. (+1)
Southwest Asian can include much of China, and can stay as such.

As you can see, even as we are creating new forums, the total forum count actually goes down by this point.

Lengthier suggestions

※ Balto-Slavic can effectively deal with the rest of minor languages of Europe that remains by this point. This can be the merger of Latvian and Lithuanian and moving other threads.
※ The only exception to above will be Albanian. I'll leave it to others to decide if it should be Balto-Slavic and Albanian or Greek and Albanian.
※ Since Africa, the Americas and the Pacific are region-based, and Asia is divided up, we can dissolve "Other Languages" until we decipher Dolphin.

Do you mean this?
وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (Ar-Rum: 22)

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-08, 10:26

księżycowy wrote:I have a feeling I won't be around for a few days....

Wow, I must have been tired last night.

I meant to say I probably won't be around much the next few days. Thesis edits and such. So I'll get even more confused. :P

Sorry if I confused anyone.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-08, 10:29

atalarikt wrote:Do you mean this?

I think you're asking me?

No, it was Vijay. (It's always Vijay... :pff: )

By the way, love the dolphin comment, Karavinka. :lol:


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