Language List

This forum is for discussing the ongoing and future projects and resources of UniLang. Please post your comments, criticism and ideas here. We are always trying to expand on things members find useful, helpful, or fun! This is also the place to report errors in systems and resources on the UniLang site.

Moderator:Forum Administrators

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:
Re: "My languages" options

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-13, 3:37

I'm not entirely sure if I should create a new thread for this or not, but I have always wondered something about the stars breakdown in the My Languages option. Why is 1 star considered Beginner (A1), 2 stars Intermediate (A2, B1), 3 stars Advanced (B2, C1), and then 4 stars Fluent (C2)? Well the last one I get. But my understanding of the CEFR standard, and also how it relates to other language level standards used in other countries, is that the beginner stage consists of A1 - A2, intermediate B1 - B2, and advanced C1 (or possibly C1 - C2, though I guess C2 being fluent also makes sense). And specifically, those stages break down as A1 is Low Beginner, A2 is High Beginner, B1 is Low Intermediate, B2 is High Intermediate. (If C2 is being considered advanced as well, then C1 is Low Advanced and C2 is High Advanced).

What do the rest of you think? I personally think it would make more sense to break up the levels this way. We could still keep the 4 star system.

Alternatively, although this would require more effort and change, we could go to a 5 star system, with Fluent being separate from C1/C2 (Low Advanced / High Advanced) - which I personally don't vote for, or a 6 star system with 1 star per CEFR level.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-13, 3:40

My understanding was that the 4-star system was meant as an alternative to the CEFR system, not really as an alternative representation of it. I remember someone arguing that even B2 in the CEFR system is a fairly advanced level to reach in any language, in which case categorizing it as "intermediate" wouldn't seem to make much sense.

Also, on a more pragmatic level, how would this be implemented? A lot of us have levels already specified for our languages in our profiles.

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-13, 3:45

vijayjohn wrote:My understanding was that the 4-star system was meant as an alternative to the CEFR system, not really as an alternative representation of it.

Well if it was meant as an alternative, then perhaps we should just simply remove any CEFR references? For example, where it says "Known at an intermediate level (A2,B1)" we just have "Known at an intermediate level".

Also, how would this practically be implemented? A lot of us have levels already specified for our languages in our profiles.

Yeah, that's why it might be best to not change the star system. If we did change it, not only would it require an overhaul of the code, it would also mean we all need to update our profiles. My real bone of contention is with the CEFR references and the fact that, at least to me, they don't match up to the concept of beginner/intermediate/advanced.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-13, 3:51

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:My understanding was that the 4-star system was meant as an alternative to the CEFR system, not really as an alternative representation of it.

Well if it was meant as an alternative, then perhaps we should just simply remove any CEFR references? For example, where it says "Known at an intermediate level (A2,B1)" we just have "Known at an intermediate level".

I might be wrong in how I understand this system, but maybe it's meant to accommodate both people who want to use the CEFR system (it might be important for career-related purposes, at least for some jobs in some countries) and those who don't. Lol idk. :)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-13, 5:13

Then perhaps we could change it to this:

1 star - Known at a beginner level (A1, A2)
2 stars - Known at an intermediate level (B1, B2)
3 stars - Known at an advanced level (C1)
4 stars - Fluent (C2)

I think that would accommodate both systems, and also make more logical sense than the current breakdown. But maybe I'm the only one who thinks it doesn't make sense? Maybe no one else was contemplating this all as they were falling asleep last night??!! :shock: :lol:
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

Karavinka

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-13, 5:19

The four-star system was present before the CEFR got stamped on them. They were basically just "beginner, intermediate, advanced, fluent."

Though, B2 is "fairly advanced"? I call bullshit, but I shouldn't really be talking about it here...

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-13, 5:43

Karavinka wrote:I shouldn't really be talking about it here...

Pfft, this is UniLang! :silly:

User avatar
aaakknu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:1389
Joined:2015-05-10, 12:24
Real Name:Ira
Gender:female
Country:UAUkraine (Україна)

Re: "My languages" options

Postby aaakknu » 2018-01-13, 10:16

I think that we shoud either keep the current system or make a six-star one.
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2019

księżycowy

Re: "My languages" options

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-13, 10:38

If we're going to go with the CEFR system offically, I think a six star system is the way to go, personally.
How hard is it to add stars?

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts:7874
Joined:2002-07-12, 22:44
Location:Lisboa
Country:PTPortugal (Portugal)

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Luís » 2018-01-13, 11:07

księżycowy wrote:If we're going to go with the CEFR system offically, I think a six star system is the way to go, personally.
How hard is it to add stars?


Adding stars per se is not hard, but there's a huge database of users that would have to be migrated to the new values (and even that is not so obvious... for instance would 3-stars become B2 or C1?). Without this, all the language information would be displayed incorrectly unless you changed it manually. But of course, even if people haven't logged in years, their profiles should still display properly.

So... I'd say this is pretty much off the table at the moment.

Changing the meaning of each of the 4 stars is possible, though.
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts:7874
Joined:2002-07-12, 22:44
Location:Lisboa
Country:PTPortugal (Portugal)

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Luís » 2018-01-13, 12:09

Karavinka wrote:I think it's fair to keep national variants with the languages where there is some form of standard for each national variant, but going regional and subregional? Feel free to separate this into a different topic if you see fit, Luis


It's OK, we can discuss it here.

As for Japanese dialects... it's up to you guys to reach a consensus and I'll implement it.

Karavinka wrote:Ancient South Arabian
Flag: N/A
Native name: N/A
ISO: xsa


Added

I suppose this is the same as Old South Arabian.
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

księżycowy

Re: "My languages" options

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-13, 13:22

Luís wrote:Adding stars per se is not hard, but there's a huge database of users that would have to be migrated to the new values (and even that is not so obvious... for instance would 3-stars become B2 or C1?). Without this, all the language information would be displayed incorrectly unless you changed it manually. But of course, even if people haven't logged in years, their profiles should still display properly.

So... I'd say this is pretty much off the table at the moment.

So basically it'd be a lot of work and figuring stuff out to do it. Which is about what I figured.

Luís wrote:As for Japanese dialects... it's up to you guys to reach a consensus and I'll implement it.

I'm not going to cry if they're taken away, but I see no reason why we can't list them. *shrug*

I'll defer to Karavinka though. If he still wants them taken off or reworked, we can do that. :)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby dEhiN » 2018-01-13, 15:40

It'd be nice to go with the CEFR system officially, since from what I can tell, even language education institutions here (in North America) refer to the CEFR system unofficially to show level equivalency. But I figured as Luís said, it'd require a lot of database migration work. That's why my vote is for rewording what's currently there.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

User avatar
Michael
Posts:7126
Joined:2009-07-21, 3:07
Real Name:Mike
Gender:male
Location:Oak Park, IL
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Michael » 2018-01-13, 16:31

I noticed that you corrected the minor issue with Standard Albanian's autonym that I recall bringing up some months ago, and also that you've recently added its dialects, faleminderit shumë (many thanks)! A minor suggestion, however: The autonym for (sq-ALS) Tosk Albanian should be Toskërisht, not Toskë, which is either an adjective in the masculine plural or a noun meaning "the Tosk men", and not a language name with the characteristic -isht(e, -ja) ending.

Also, now that I've been reminded of it from viewing the Language List, the English name for (el_KA) should be Greek, Puristic, as "Greek, Katharevousa" (i.e. Katharevousa Greek) sounds somewhat redundant,
Katharevousa on its own already meaning "Puristic Greek". I don't know what I was thinking when I had first suggested that way back when. :oops:
American English (en-us) Neapolitan from Molise (nap) N Italian (it) B2 Spanish (es) Portuguese (pt) French (fr) Greek (el) Albanian (sq) B1 Polish (pl) Romanian (ro) A2 Azerbaijani (az) Turkish (tr) Old English (en_old) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-13, 16:55

Luís wrote:Changing the meaning of each of the 4 stars is possible, though.

But still risky because then our profiles might be inaccurate through no fault of our own.
księżycowy wrote:I'm not going to cry if they're taken away, but I see no reason why we can't list them. *shrug*

I do: Because there are way too many of them.
Michael wrote:Also, now that I've been reminded of it from viewing the Language List, the English name for (el_KA) should be Greek, Puristic, as "Greek, Katharevousa" (i.e. Katharevousa Greek) sounds somewhat redundant,
Katharevousa on its own already meaning "Puristic Greek". I don't know what I was thinking when I had first suggested that way back when. :oops:

I'm going to suggest just Katharevousa over either of those two. That's the only term I've almost ever seen for it in English.

księżycowy

Re: "My languages" options

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-13, 17:08

vijayjohn wrote:I do: Because there are way too many of them.
Are we talking Japanese dialects, or just dialects in general?

Whatever the case, I think, given his knowledge in the area, we should let Karavinka make the final call for Japanese dialects.

Karavinka

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-13, 17:34

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I do: Because there are way too many of them.
Are we talking Japanese dialects, or just dialects in general?

Whatever the case, I think, given his knowledge in the area, we should let Karavinka make the final call for Japanese dialects.


While there are shared features found across Kansai, for example, all major cities and prefectures have their own dialect, and it's not uncommon to find references (and even resources and studies) on one particular subregion, like Osaka, Kyoto, Hiroshima, etc. This goes for pretty much all dialect groups, those with keen ears go down to the county level. This is not only Japan, but typical in many parts of the world.

While an Osaka-ben speaker is automatically also a Kansai-ben speaker, for the outsiders, you'd have to go for some deep immersion in one single area not to make an ass of yourself. Even the native Japanese are not an exception: "fake Kansai-ben" used in media is often a source of cringe. So are "fake Hakata" and "fake Tosa", etc. Knowing bits and pieces of the shared "Common Kansai" will help you understand the dialects -- once they're modulated enough to be comprehensible across Japan -- but it's not something you'll speak separately from "Japanese." You cannot just speak "Common Kansai", the shared features go only so far, and even if you keep the sentences themselves to the "Common Kansai", the intonation failure is inevitable because Kyoto sounds different from Osaka.

Subdividing something like Japanese or Korean would be like subdividing American English into Californian, Texan, Midwest, New York, etc, etc. If my vote counts, I vote for removal of them all, unless there is a specific demand from a native or someone with equivalent proficiency in that dialect. Our language list is already too long and cluttered.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2018-01-13, 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

księżycowy

Re: "My languages" options

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-13, 17:40

Then I concede my previous position. They can go.

I have already said my piece before about the language list being impractical as a whole before, and attempted to make suggestions. It was bound to get impractical eventually and Japanese is not the sole issue, as I'm sure we all agree.

Karavinka

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-13, 18:02

Something I forgot to mention: It's the same reason why I never asked for North Korean, even though it's a national standard variety with a government backing it. It's just impractical, unless we recruit a member who is from there, or someone who is so dedicated and decided to learn that variant to model one's Korean after it, there wouldn't be much point behind it.

User avatar
Michael
Posts:7126
Joined:2009-07-21, 3:07
Real Name:Mike
Gender:male
Location:Oak Park, IL
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: "My languages" options

Postby Michael » 2018-01-13, 20:51

vijayjohn wrote:
Michael wrote:Also, now that I've been reminded of it from viewing the Language List, the English name for (el_KA) should be Greek, Puristic, as "Greek, Katharevousa" (i.e. Katharevousa Greek) sounds somewhat redundant,
Katharevousa on its own already meaning "Puristic Greek". I don't know what I was thinking when I had first suggested that way back when. :oops:

I'm going to suggest just Katharevousa over either of those two. That's the only term I've almost ever seen for it in English.

"I object, your honor!" It's unnecessary for it to be listed as "Katharevousa", no matter that that appellation is more common, because most anybody who can read Greek will be able to read the autonym that says as much. I was gonna suggest we settle for the compromise of Greek, Puristic i.e. Katharevousa, but that's way too long of a language name, unnecessarily at that. I mean, we don't list [Modern] Greek as "Dhimotikí", now do we.
American English (en-us) Neapolitan from Molise (nap) N Italian (it) B2 Spanish (es) Portuguese (pt) French (fr) Greek (el) Albanian (sq) B1 Polish (pl) Romanian (ro) A2 Azerbaijani (az) Turkish (tr) Old English (en_old) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.


Return to “Unilang - Information, Input, and Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests