księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

[księżycowy]

So, as is typical Unilang fashion, here is my personal language log for Seneca. I find it particularly important to keep a log for this one, as no proper textbook for beginners exists as of yet. And even if one does come into existence, I'm sure this thread will prove helpful.

I'm going through some of the materials available here. Starting with the Language Lessons with Pearl White (under audio). I thought that might help to give at least some grammar to start with, and then between that and the grammar proper I could slowly pick apart the words and phrases contained in other materials on the site.

I'll begin with the first lesson, and probably also (either this week or next) add the info from the Seneca Grammar about the pronoun prefixes, as this is a pretty necessary and basic thing to get down.

dEhiN, I know we're learning Seneca together ATM, so feel free to use this thread as well.

[dEhiN]

Will do!

[księżycowy]

I was going to look up some of the basic pronominal suffixes in Seneca, which are located on page 31 of the grammar, but then I noticed that page 31 is missing from the pdf!
I emailed the curator of the site, so hopefully they can fix that error soon.

In the meantime, here is a cool link:
Seneca Morphology and Dictionary

I'll post something about the future prefix soon.

[dEhiN]

You may have posted the pdf link before, but what's the site (again)? Also do the lessons with Pearl talk about pronominal prefixes? How are they used? I take it the future prefix is attached to a verb (root?) to give a future tense?

[księżycowy]

The link to the Seneca Language site is in my first post, but to make it clearer: http://senecalanguage.com/

The language lessons do go over a few, but not that many of them. I generally have the idea to check out the grammar in bite sized pieces as we go through the various materials.

The language lessons (all three of them) do break down words a bit ("word play"), so I thought it might be a good way to get our feet wet.

[Massimiliano B]

Hi!

About this problem:

I was going to look up some of the basic pronominal suffixes in Seneca, which are located on page 31 of the grammar, but then I noticed that page 31 is missing from the pdf!
I emailed the curator of the site, so hopefully they can fix that error soon.

I think there is a mistake in the numbering of the pages. It seems to me that page 32 continues the argument of page 30.

[księżycowy]

It could be, but there is suppose to be a table of pronominal prefixes on page "31", which I can't find anywhere.

[księżycowy]

I have to say, I'm quite put off at the moment by the lack of materials on the pronominal prefixes. Short of buying a paperback copy of the grammar (which I don't have to funds for atm), I'm considering switch languages, at least for now.

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun though. Idk. What do you think dEhiN?

EDIT: Eh, I jumped the gun the other way, and bought the grammar. I had some points to use up at Amazon anyway.
I'll be pissed if page 31 is still missing though!

In the meantime, I believe I said something about the future prefix. Posting a "mini-lesson" shortly!

[księżycowy]

The Future Prefix
(Ref: Grammar pg 30)
Ex.
1a. ëge:gë' I will see it
b. ëgö:gë' I will see you

2a. e:egë' he will see it
b. é:owi' I will tell him

3a. éótä:k -or- ó:tä:k he will be speaker
b. éónö'e:sha' -or- ó:nö'e:sha' they will be grateful for it

Notes:
-The basic form of the future prefix is <ë->, as seen in example set 1.

-The future prefix undergoes denasalization becoming <e(:)-> when it comes before the following pronominal prefixes:
ho
hoti
hon

he(y)

The first three pronominal prefixes cause the sequence to become <eo> (as in example set 3). Colloquially <eo> becomes <o:->.
The last prefix <he(y)-> prefix causes a long vowel <e:->, as in example set 2.

So, let's go through a full verb paradigm from lesson 1:
ëgadö́gweta’ I will be well
ësadö́gweta’ you will be well
ëyödö́gweta’ she will be well
eodögweta’ (o:dögweta’) he will be well
(From gadö́gweta’ I am well)

The Seneca dictionary gives ëödögweta’ as the third person masculine, but I wonder if that is a mistake. What was outlined in the grammar suggests <eo>.

EDIT: I just realized that the form given in the dictionary is: ëödögwe:ta:k he will be feeling well.

[dEhiN]

Damn I've definitely got some catch-up to do! I'm planning to do the language lessons with Pearl White tonight, and also try to get down the phonology/orthography. Did you skip ahead to the future prefix stuff, or have you already read chapters 1 and 2 of the grammar? (Side note: I finally found the grammar you've been referring to! Yay! )

Also is page 31 missing from the print copy? And like Massimiliano said, I think it's just a mistake in the numbering. The content on page 32 seems to follow directly from page 30, and then continues onto page 33. I don't think it's that big a deal - that is, I don't think we're actually missing any content by using the pdf!

[księżycowy]

I'm jumping around the grammar, I'm not really going from cover to cover. More like searching a grammar point that is (at least seemingly) relevant to what we're doing. I do intend to read over it all though. Eventually.

And I still swear the table of pronominal prefixes is missing. Unless one of you guys have located it? The information on pages "30" and "32" do not give all of the forms from what I saw. And there are quite a few.

Anyway, once I get the paper copy I'll let you know. I literally ordered it today, and it hasn't shipped yet.

And don't stress, as long as you get an idea of the phonology and orthography, that's more than enough for me. I've been looking at a lot of material on various Iroquoian languages over the years, so I might be a little quick. Feel free to tell me to slow down.

[dEhiN]

Ok, sounds good.

[księżycowy]

By the way, if you find yourself wanted a systematic introduction to the phonology and orthography, check out the language supplement (audio tracks 1-5, if I remember correctly). It's not much more, but it gives each letter along with example words.

[dEhiN]

By the way, if you find yourself wanted a systematic introduction to the phonology and orthography, check out the language supplement (audio tracks 1-5, if I remember correctly). It's not much more, but it gives each letter along with example words.

Oh beautiful! Will do!

[księżycowy]

Sorry, I suppose I did through you in the pool before I made sure you could swim.

[księżycowy]

One question that pops into my mind at the moment is, so <s-> is the second person prefix (you), but it's also the repetitive prefix (sgadö́gweta’ - I am well again).

I wonder how you would say "you are well again".

My best guesses at the moment are: sadö́gweta’ (with or without the a change to the first <a>), shadö́gweta’ or šadö́gweta’.


EDIT:
So I found my answer in the grammar. Drum roll please...............!
tsadö́gweta’ - you are well again

[księżycowy]

Oh, and just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about with pronominal prefixes, check out this page to the very closely related language Cayuga:
https://www.phon.ca/cayuga/PronominalPrefixIntro

For Seneca I've learned the following so far:
gadö́gweta’ (g- I)
sadö́gweta’ (s- you)
yödö́gweta’ (yö- she, which "swallows" the <a> of the root)
hadö́gweta’ (ha- he, which also "swallows" the <a> of the root)

But that's only a partial picture. I'm not even sure what class of prefixes these are.

[księżycowy]

The Repetitive Prefix
[Ref. Grammar pgs 39-41]
Interestingly, I just looked over the section on the repetitive <s-> and found out the form used before <y> is <dz->
I was expecting <š->.
So dzödö́gweta’ she is well again

So the set with pronominals learned thus far:
sgadö́gweta’
tsadö́gweta’
dzödö́gweta’
shadö́gweta’

Probably should stop here and let dEhiN catch up.

[dEhiN]

Probably should stop here and let dEhiN catch up.

Actually I've thought about it, and I think it might be better if you go ahead on your own. I still want to learn some Seneca, but due to my health struggles it's hard for me to be consistent. For example, last week I ended up doing almost nothing for Seneca, except listen briefly to the Pearl White lessons.

[księżycowy]