Gender thread

[vijayjohn]

Sorry for the length of this post/rant.

Lauren, thanks for making this thread! I'm afraid I haven't checked off any of the options yet, partly because this is the first time I'm encountering almost any of these terms and I haven't managed to go through all of them yet. I think of myself as a cis male, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that that's not what I really am and/or that there are other labels that apply to me (or that there are none at all). Do we have the option of changing our vote in this poll over time?

I think I've always found gender a very confusing concept. As a child, I never would have guessed that anyone associated gender with genitalia of all things; I would've thought it had more to do with, like, hair. I associated long head hair with women and facial hair with men, not realizing that there were men with both, women with neither, etc. But one time when I was maybe seven years old or so, my mom went to India and bought me lots of stuff (mostly educational cartoons having to do with Hindu mythology or Indian history) from Chennai depicting men with longer head hair than I would have expected, which must have left me puzzled for a long time. I'm sure there was a time when I was more likely to accept Krishna as my lord and savior than I was to accept the idea of him being a man. And perhaps I'm not the only brown guy to think that way, either. Krishna is a unisex name after all.

I come from a culture that has certain ideas of what is to be associated with men or women; sometimes, those ideas may be almost exactly the opposite of Western society. At some point (definitely before I was twelve), my dad gave me a gorgeous [ˈkəjili]. It was thin and mostly yellowish-orange but partly red, black, and white. It's specifically Malayalee men's clothing, but to me and everyone I knew growing up here, it looked like a dress or skirt, something that Western culture strongly suggested was women's clothing. Later, he gave me another one that was purplish-red, black, and white, and he's given me a few more over the years, too. As much as I love this clothing, I haven't worn it in years (it takes skill) and don't think I'd dare to wear it outside the house (it's indoor clothing anyway).

I don't remember why or how exactly this happened, but one time (also before I turned twelve), I wore my mom's dark red nail polish to a party. I think she painted my nails once just for fun but then was surprised when I chose to wear nail polish to this party. It was one of the usual Indian parties here, where basically all the kids go upstairs ASAP and the adults stay downstairs, with the uncles getting into one group and the aunties into another. I remember the aunties making fun of me for wearing something strongly associated with women (this was probably the first time they had ever made fun of me for any reason), but I didn't really care because I was pretty used to being made fun of by then and I have loved dark red nail polish ever since my mom introduced me to it. It looks great on my nails. It was the last time I ever wore it, though. I think my mom said she once got my brother to wear lipstick when he was little, too, but I don't think she ever let me wear her dark red lipstick even though I liked how that looked, too (perhaps that's because of this nail polish incident, and I don't think she ever let me wear nail polish again either, especially out in public).

I have to say also that while I was growing up, I noticed that girls from the same ethnic background as me typically studied Indian classical dance (in addition to all the classes they took in school and all the other extracurricular activities they did), and because of this, they had something that would allow them to connect with their heritage whereas most of us boys did not. I think that makes me slightly jealous in a way, or at least used to. (Also, I could've sworn I used to say that I wanted to grow up to be a Chinese girl or something, even though my dad insists that I said a Chinese boy ).

[Lauren]

So you thought you belong with certain group. Members of that group advised you that they feel you don't share their experience, because you don't follow the skirts and make-up rule of their group. You are now reconsidering what your identity is. I'm sorry, if I am wrong, but it sounds like adopting that label didn't make you feel like you belong, it served the members of the group to underscore who they are and why you do not fit in.

I'm definitely not thinking about my gender identity now because I didn't fit in with them. There are many cis women and even trans women that aren't very femme or are butch. I know that women are varied and I could identify as a woman if I wanted, even though I'm not girly. Why I don't feel that's the appropriate label anymore is because it feels like an incorrect and inadequate label for what my gender is. Besides, I don't want to fit in. I actively go against stereotypes and what's considered the norm.

No, I'm not perfect, and I was trying to do something that I don't need to do when I was wearing dresses and makeup because that's not what I am. Before I realized I was a woman I thought I was a boy. Not because I wanted to be or thought I was, but because that's what people and society and media told me. Similarly now, I'm realizing I'm not exactly a woman now because that label isn't accurate either for describing who I am, just like boy/men wasn't.

You need to understand, a label does not make a person. A person makes and chooses the label.


Sorry if this is just a jumble of nonsense, I'm a bit high right now still. xP

[Sol Invictus]

You need to understand, a label does not make a person. A person makes and chooses the label.

What I am trying to say is that very often it does, because the label forces person to fit in with certain stereotypes, if they want to be part of a group. In my opinion it is in fact the primary purpose of it, it seems you don't see it that way, but we don't necessarily always need to agree on everything, do we? I think we can move on from this to something else here.

[mōdgethanc]

What makes you think that gender has a base in biology? I'm curious.

I think I answered that in another thread. It's getting confusing how there's a thread for gender and another for sexuality but people are discussing gender in both. Maybe we should get those posts moved to this thread.

[Lauren]

What makes you think that gender has a base in biology? I'm curious.

I think I answered that in another thread. It's getting confusing how there's a thread for gender and another for sexuality but people are discussing gender in both. Maybe we should get those posts moved to this thread.

It makes no sense to me that "[e]verything you do, think and feel is at least mediated, if not determined by, your biology." Definitely not gender. Gender in very much social. Anyone with any body can be any gender. And it doesn't require Cartesian dualism, that's ridiculous. I'm sure you know very well that much of what people think (some more than others) is determined by society and peers.

Moving them here could make sense, but I don't want to be accused of backseat modding.

Also, I checked up on Cartesian dualism on Wikipedia (my philosophy is a bit rusty) and saw something that relates to gender:

Thomas Nagel first characterized the problem of qualia for physicalistic monism in his article, "What is it like to be a bat?". Nagel argued that even if we knew everything there was to know from a third-person, scientific perspective about a bat's sonar system, we still wouldn't know what it is like to be a bat. However, others argue that qualia are consequent of the same neurological processes that engender the bat's mind, and will be fully understood as the science develops.[28]

I agree with the first part. It's impossible to know what it's like to be black and receive constant institutionalized racism if you're white. And you can't know what it's like to be a lesbian trans woman if you're a straight cis man. You can't know the personal feeling and you can't know what they go through and do.

[IpseDixit]

I'm sure you know very well that much of what people think (some more than others) is determined by society and peers.

Doesn't that beg the question of what determines what society and peers think?

[vijayjohn]

It makes no sense to me that "[e]verything you do, think and feel is at least mediated, if not determined by, your biology."

Really?

Everything you do, think, or feel requires brain processing. Your brain is part of your biological makeup. Therefore, everything you do, think, or feel requires at least a part of your biological makeup. None of that means that gender is determined by hormones or chromosomes or whatever, but then that's not what mōdgethanc's saying, either.

[Lauren]

Maybe it is to the extent that we are "wired" to react emotionally/chemically in certain ways to certain stimuli and will tend to want and associate with those stimuli more than others. Those reactions could take part in determining which gender we identify as. I don't know if I'd say it plays a major part in it, though.

And on the topic of labels, I should say that labels are obviously chosen for a reason. I don't feel any part of me is described by the labels masculine or male, and I determine that by how my feelings compare to people who use that label. Gender is very much a social construct, but humans are social creatures. We place extreme importance on socialness and thrive on social interaction. So I don't think it's bad to identify as something that was socially constructed and it shouldn't undermine the legitimacy of your feelings.

An analogy might be that some view the concept of time as human-made and fundamental structure of our universe, but it's still extremely important to us as humans.

The reason I get so worked up about this is similar to what Lur said about people using the supposed linking of sex and gender to invalidate trans people's dysphoria. Many cis people use such arguments to invalidate trans people's identities by trying to say that "you should just accept yourself for who you are", implying that their false impressions of that person are what's real and not what the trans person actually feels. Trans and non-binary people face a great amount of oppression and discrimination and violence for being seen as subhuman because of their non-conforming gender, so it's important for us to stick up for ourselves and use labels to stick together and have a better sense of who we are, as a group and as individuals.

[Sol Invictus]

The reason I get so worked up about this is similar to what Lur said about people using the supposed linking of sex and gender to invalidate trans people's dysphoria. Many cis people use such arguments to invalidate trans people's identities by trying to say that "you should just accept yourself for who you are", implying that their false impressions of that person are what's real and not what the trans person actually feels. Trans and non-binary people face a great amount of oppression and discrimination and violence for being seen as subhuman because of their non-conforming gender, so it's important for us to stick up for ourselves and use labels to stick together and have a better sense of who we are, as a group and as individuals.

But that means you're fighting people who want to categorize people using certain labels by inventing more labels

[Lauren]

But that means you're fighting people who want to categorize people using certain labels by inventing more labels

No. Gender-nonconforming people using labels has nothing to do with cis people oppressing us. We use labels to defy their limited thinking and to feel like we belong in a community of similar people. We don't fit into mainstream society.

[johnklepac]

Voted "cis man" and "neutrois". As weird as people think I am already, I'm not really in a position to be identifying as anything other than a binary male, but if I were placed before male and female bodies as a mentally mature egg cell, I wouldn't have particular reason, knowing my personality, to pick the one with a dick. I feel more female than male often, but not usually.

[Lauren]

What makes you say you're not really in the position to identify as anything else?


So last night I was talking with a close friend about my mental issues and something I said reminded her of a list of Borderline Personality Disorder symptoms. So I've been researching it a shit ton in the past day and am almost 100% sure that's a thing I have. But that's not the point of this thread. However, while reading about BPD things, I came across a Tumblr post where someone came up with the words bordergender and borderfluid.

Bordergender/Borderfluid: A fluctuating gender experienced exclusively by people with BPD. A gender identity lacking a firm grasp on ones identity, while still experiencing gender, to varying degrees, but having trouble pinning it down to just one label or identity. Having the sense of grasping at labels as much as possible to describe a gender we keep questioning because we keep second guessing our sense of selves and, consequentially, our sense of gender.
Can be combined with relevant genders.

The italicized bit that describes me perfectly... It describes everything I've been feeling and thinking in the past week or two and past several months in general.

This is related to a symptom of BPD called splitting, or black and white thinking:

black and white/all or nothing thinking is present in literally every aspect of life and logic processing, instinctual way of processing conclusions, thoughts, and feelings only exist on two extremes with no concept of a middle ground, this conflict leads to not being able to decide any aspect of yourself which leads to nonexistent sense of self

So yeah, the point of this post is the bordergender bit, the other parts are just background for those that don't know about BPD. I didn't create this post for others to discuss my mental disorder(s) or mental disorders, unless they relate to gender.

[johnklepac]

What makes you say you're not really in the position to identify as anything else?

I'm already the near-silent, noticeably deep-voiced, excessively body-haired (I had the chest hair of a middle-aged dad at, like, 14), scary-eyed (so I'm told), vegetarian, atheist, biromantic asexual (I still usually just identify as bisexual, if I can be brave enough to declare myself anything other than straight), ASD- and PTSD-suffering guy; I don't need to claim to be some alternative gender on top of that when, in my experience, even otherwise tolerant people will laugh at the idea that genders besides male and female can exist. That's the world we live in.

So last night I was talking with a close friend about my mental issues and something I said reminded her of a list of Borderline Personality Disorder symptoms. So I've been researching it a shit ton in the past day and am almost 100% sure that's a thing I have. But that's not the point of this thread. However, while reading about BPD things, I came across a Tumblr post where someone came up with the words bordergender and borderfluid.

Bordergender/Borderfluid: A fluctuating gender experienced exclusively by people with BPD. A gender identity lacking a firm grasp on ones identity, while still experiencing gender, to varying degrees, but having trouble pinning it down to just one label or identity. Having the sense of grasping at labels as much as possible to describe a gender we keep questioning because we keep second guessing our sense of selves and, consequentially, our sense of gender.
Can be combined with relevant genders.

The italicized bit that describes me perfectly... It describes everything I've been feeling and thinking in the past week or two and past several months in general.

This is related to a symptom of BPD called splitting, or black and white thinking:

black and white/all or nothing thinking is present in literally every aspect of life and logic processing, instinctual way of processing conclusions, thoughts, and feelings only exist on two extremes with no concept of a middle ground, this conflict leads to not being able to decide any aspect of yourself which leads to nonexistent sense of self

So yeah, the point of this post is the bordergender bit, the other parts are just background for those that don't know about BPD. I didn't create this post for others to discuss my mental disorder(s) or mental disorders, unless they relate to gender.

I won't probe into your personal life if you don't want, but how is this identity instrinstically connected with BPD? It sounds like it would fit a great number of anxious people who aren't quite sure if they feel fully cis.

[mōdgethanc]

People with BPD often have problems with identity, tend to dissociate, and feel chronic emptiness. That's probably what it means.

It makes no sense to me that "[e]verything you do, think and feel is at least mediated, if not determined by, your biology." Definitely not gender. Gender in very much social. Anyone with any body can be any gender. And it doesn't require Cartesian dualism, that's ridiculous. I'm sure you know very well that much of what people think (some more than others) is determined by society and peers.

I don't deny the influence of socialization and I'm not a big fan of determinism. But like Vijay already said for me (thanks Vijay!) I mean this: Gender is a feeling. Feelings come from the brain. I think you are begging the question by assuming that because gender is a social phenomenon, it must be purely the result of socialization. It's not an either/or thing; gender can be both social and biological in origin. I would argue that most if not all of our behaviour is both.

I agree with the first part. It's impossible to know what it's like to be black and receive constant institutionalized racism if you're white. And you can't know what it's like to be a lesbian trans woman if you're a straight cis man. You can't know the personal feeling and you can't know what they go through and do.

No, I can't, but I can know that you have a brain and it works in much the same way (although not exactly the same) that everyone else's does.

So last night I was talking with a close friend about my mental issues and something I said reminded her of a list of Borderline Personality Disorder symptoms. So I've been researching it a shit ton in the past day and am almost 100% sure that's a thing I have. But that's not the point of this thread. However, while reading about BPD things, I came across a Tumblr post where someone came up with the words bordergender and borderfluid.

Ask your shrink. Diagnosis is complicated; psychiatric diagnosis even more so; personality disorders especially so. As a non-specialist, I honestly haven't ever thought you seemed like someone with BPD, but then again I've never met you. I also don't see more than a surface similarity between it and this bordergender thing, but I don't know much about it.

Maybe it is to the extent that we are "wired" to react emotionally/chemically in certain ways to certain stimuli and will tend to want and associate with those stimuli more than others. Those reactions could take part in determining which gender we identify as. I don't know if I'd say it plays a major part in it, though.

I'm always skeptical of any claims that we are wired to do anything but I agree with you: I don't necessarily think biology has a major part in gender, but it may (and in my opinion probably does) have some influence on it. Like I said, the research is still very tentative.

The reason I get so worked up about this is similar to what Lur said about people using the supposed linking of sex and gender to invalidate trans people's dysphoria. Many cis people use such arguments to invalidate trans people's identities by trying to say that "you should just accept yourself for who you are", implying that their false impressions of that person are what's real and not what the trans person actually feels.

I would never make that argument, since gender being partly (and even if it were completely) biological does not mean at all that it can be equated to sex. That's just ignorant and shitty.

[vijayjohn]

thanks Vijay!

Np

[Lauren]

I'm already the near-silent, noticeably deep-voiced, excessively body-haired (I had the chest hair of a middle-aged dad at, like, 14), scary-eyed (so I'm told), vegetarian, atheist, biromantic asexual (I still usually just identify as bisexual, if I can be brave enough to declare myself anything other than straight), ASD- and PTSD-suffering guy; I don't need to claim to be some alternative gender on top of that when, in my experience, even otherwise tolerant people will laugh at the idea that genders besides male and female can exist. That's the world we live in.

Well you have the right to identify publicly about things or not. Being trans/non-binary is a huge safety concern for many people.

I won't probe into your personal life if you don't want, but how is this identity intrinsically connected with BPD? It sounds like it would fit a great number of anxious people who aren't quite sure if they feel fully cis.

What mōdgethanc said: "People with BPD often have problems with identity, tend to dissociate, and feel chronic emptiness."

Like one part of my last post said, people with BPD are often never certain of what they actually believe and hold conflicting opinions at different times or in different situations. Maaaaany times I have said things on this forum that I completely disagree with the next day and cannot possibly comprehend how I thought that. Then a day later I feel the opposite again. So, sometimes I feel with full conviction that I'm a trans woman, sometimes I feel with full conviction that I'm non-binary, but then a day or two later I'm like "Hold on, I'm not sure anymore... Maybe I'm just a trans woman?" and switch between these two viewpoints constantly. So using bordergender is just not trying to fight with myself on these conflicting ideas and just say "I'm not cis, I'm something else, but because of my mental problems I am just unable to figure it out since I can never believe what I'm saying." With BPD it's extremely hard to ever be sure of anything, especially things about yourself.

Mōdgethanc: Me saying that I think gender has nothing whatsoever is one of those instances of saying something I believe at one point but not another... I'm pretty sure I don't actually believe that. But who knows. My post with the "wired" talk was the switching point where I stopped to think about it and realized I don't actually believe that. But I didn't want to come out and say I was wrong since because of that problem people never take me seriously or listen to things I say because I just sound like a crazy person. But yeah, I know I need to see a psychologist so I can find out what the hell is wrong with me. I'm totally fine talking about mental disorders and such but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe someone could open up a new thread if y'all want to talk about the topic.

[Koko]

A "Random Health Thread" wouldn't be a vad idea. Then you're not limited to talking about psychology and can discuss other health issues. I don't want to start it (the last two random threads I did were closed , but they seemed different enough to me), but I can't wait, 'cause I got some questions.

[Lauren]

I don't see why we couldn't have such a thread if we can have one like this.

[Koko]

I don't see why we couldn't have such a thread if we can have one like this.

Same. But I remember my Ransom Sadness thread intended for posting about things that are sad, not complaints. I guess in retrospect they are very similar, but still. Someone else can have the pleasure of creating that thread ^^

I feel like my question could be voiced in the romance, sexuality and such thread. So that's where I'll ask it.

[johnklepac]

Wow, I suppose I'd never looked at it in depth, but the list of symptoms of BPD matches strikingly well with myself. I routinely alternate between seeing myself as an unstoppable genius and an incompetent failure several times a day, and similarly for other people if they're on my mind, when it'd be much more relaxing for these feelings to be more constant. Luckily, I haven't been suicidal in about a year now, so I guess I've somehow learned to keep the fringes of it under control (if indeed I do have something like that, and not a case of chronic teenage hormone syndrome with Munchausen features).