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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-02-17, 17:33
by Naava
Linguaphile wrote:Southwestern (fi) huotava cheap, simple

Kotus says this is used in the Southeastern dialects, not Southwestern. :hmm: [map from Kotus]

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kohta place, location, right away

kohta means 'soon', not 'right away'.

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-02-17, 17:51
by Linguaphile
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Southwestern (fi) huotava cheap, simple

Kotus says this is used in the Southeastern dialects, not Southwestern. :hmm: [map from Kotus]

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kohta place, location, right away

kohta means 'soon', not 'right away'.


Kiitos!

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-02-17, 18:34
by Naava
Linguaphile wrote:Kiitos!

Np! :)

I like the lists btw! I had never thought kohtuus and kohta would share the same root, although it's quite obvious if you think about it. :D I wonder if kohti ('towards') belongs to this group, too?

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-02-17, 19:09
by Linguaphile
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Kiitos!

Np! :)

I like the lists btw! I had never thought kohtuus and kohta would share the same root, although it's quite obvious if you think about it. :D I wonder if kohti ('towards') belongs to this group, too?


Yes of course; I hadn't even thought about the postpositions. They are derived directly from the nouns.
Wiktionary says the etymology of (fi) kohti "towards" is "from the lative singular kohta +‎ -i."
And there is also (et) kohta "about", which is the partitive and illative form of koht.

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-02-17, 20:02
by Naava
Linguaphile wrote:Yes of course; I hadn't even thought about the postpositions. They are derived directly from the nouns.
Wiktionary says the etymology of (fi) kohti "towards" is "from the lative singular kohta +‎ -i."
And there is also (et) kohta "about", which is the partitive and illative form of koht.

How did it end up being kohti and not *kohtoi? :hmm: (Usually A+I=O, eg. jalka > jalkoja or Estonian jalg > jalgu)

Finnish has also kohtaan:
- Olit töykeä häntä kohtaan. - You were rude to him.
- Mira ei voinut olla tuntematta sääliä Sakua kohtaan. - Mira couldn't help but feel pity for Saku.
- Esimieheni käyttäytyy huonosti minua kohtaan. - My boss is behaving badly towards me.
(Directly copy pasted from Wiktionary.)

And the verb kohdata, 'to meet'!

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-04-21, 17:37
by Linguaphile
Various words meaning "speak", and what their cognates mean in related languages:

(fi) puhua to speak, to blow (of wind)
(olo) puhuo to blow, to cast a spell, to speak
(lud) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vep) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vot) puhua to blow, to snort
(izh) puhhuua to blow, to breathe
(fi) puhaltaa to blow (can refer to humans or wind)
(liv) pūgõ to blow
(fi) puhkua to huff, puff
(vro) puhkma to blow
(et) puhuma to blow
(believed to be onomatopoeic)

(izh) läätä to speak
(vot) läätä to speak, to talk (Kukkuzi dialect)
(vot) lägätä to speak Izhorian (Rajo dialect); to babble (Jõgõperä dialect)
(izh) lägäellä to speak
(vot) läkisä to chatter, to prattle
(fi) läkistä to make a lot of noise, roar :?: ('käratseda, lärmata' according to ETY)
(et) läkastama to have a coughing fit, to choke
(liv) läkārtõ to have a coughing fit, to choke
(olo) läkehtüö to choke, suffocate, gasp for breath
(vep) ľäkästuda to suffocate, to gasp for breath
(vot) lätšähtüä to suffocate, to gasp for breath
(fi) läkähtyä to suffocate, to swelter
(et) läginemä to start to burn and get larger (of fire); to grow angrier (southeast dialect)
(vro) lügünemmä to start to burn and get larger (of fire); to grow angrier
(et) läitma to gleam, shine, light up, kindle
(believed to be onomatopoeic)

(fi) haastaa to dare, defy, challenge, summon; (Eastern dialects) to speak
(krl) hoastoa to speak, talk, smolder, glow
(fi) huoata to sigh, to blow
(izh) hooada to blow
(fi) huokua to exhale (of inanimate objects releasing things), to emanate
(izh) hookua to breath
(olo) huogavuo to breath
(lud) huogauzuda to blow
(vot) oogata to blow, to catch one's breath
(believed to be onomatopoeic; uncertain whether haastaa and hoastoa are etymologically related to the others)

(vro) kõnõlõma to speak
(et) kõnelema to talk, to converse, to speak about
(fi) koneistaa to mechanize, to machine
(krl) konehtie to conjure
(from Proto-Finnic koneh "magic")

(et) rääkima to speak
(izh) rääkkiä to screech, to crake
(et) rääkuma, rääksuma to screech, to crake
(fi) rääkyä to yell, to howl, to screech
(fi) rääkkyä to screech, to crake
(lud) riägüdä to shout
(krl) reäküö to shout, to roar, to screech
(liv) räukõ to shout, cry loudly
(believed to be onomatopoeic; Estonian rääkima probably influenced by Germanic spreken)

(vot) pajattaa to speak, to talk, to recite by heart; to speak Votic
(fi) pajattaa to patter, jabber
(et) pajatama to tell, talk, narrate, speak
(olo) pajattua to sing, to hold a funeral service, to cry
(lud) pajattada to sing spiritual songs
(vep) pajatada to sing
(from Russian: баять "to speak, to tell")

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-04-21, 18:04
by Naava
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) puhua to speak, to blow (of wind)
(olo) puhuo to blow, to cast a spell, to speak
(lud) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vep) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vot) puhua to blow, to snort
(izh) puhhuua to blow, to breathe
(liv) pūgõ to blow
(fi) puhkua to huff, puff
(vro) puhkma to blow
(et) puhuma to blow
(believed to be onomatopoeic)

You could also add FI: puhaltaa - to blow (can refer to humans or wind)

(fi) läkistä to make a lot of noise, roar :?: ('käratseda, lärmata' according to ETY)

I've never hear this word nor could I find it on Google. :hmm: I wonder what ETY's source is...
There is a verb lätistä - to splash, to splash repeatedly (standard Finnish); to chatter (Spoken Finnish). I doubt it's related to any of your words though.

(fi) haastaa to dare, defy, challenge, summon; (dialect) to speak
(krl) hoastoa to speak, talk, smolder, glow

FYI: haastaa is used in the Eastern dialects of Finnish, which share a common ancestor with Karelian but not with the Western dialects. :)

(fi) huokua to exhale, to emanate

Just a NB: 'exhale' here refers to inanimate things releasing stuff, not to breathing.

(from Proto-Finnic koneh "magic")

Wow, I didn't know that! :o

(et) rääkima to speak
(izh) rääkkiä to screech, to crake
(et) rääkuma, rääksuma to screech, to crake
(fi) rääkyä to yell, to howl, to screech
(fi) rääkkyä to screech, to crake
(lud) riägüdä to shout
(krl) reäküö to shout, to roar, to screech
(liv) räukõ to shout, cry loudly

I really like how all the other languages say it means "to screech" or "to shout" and then Estonian is like "yup, that's how we talk". :lol:

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Posted: 2020-04-21, 22:22
by Linguaphile
Thanks!
Here's one more:

(krl) paista to speak, to converse
(olo) paišta to speak, to converse; to condemn, to blame
(lud) pagišta to speak, to converse
(vep) pagišta to speak, to converse

(fi) pakista to chat
(vot) pakisa to crack, to crackle
(et) pagisema to crack, to creak, to groan (i.e. a ship)
(liv) pagat to speak (Salatsi dialect)
(smi-smk) ругъедтэ (pággeδ) to quarrel, to bicker

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) läkistä to make a lot of noise, roar :?: ('käratseda, lärmata' according to ETY)

I've never hear this word nor could I find it on Google. :hmm: I wonder what ETY's source is...

I'd like to know too! ETY was the only source I could find for it. :hmm: They do get stuff wrong sometimes and I just blithely post them here. :twisted:

Naava wrote:
(et) rääkima to speak
(izh) rääkkiä to screech, to crake
(et) rääkuma, rääksuma to screech, to crake
(fi) rääkyä to yell, to howl, to screech
(fi) rääkkyä to screech, to crake
(lud) riägüdä to shout
(krl) reäküö to shout, to roar, to screech
(liv) räukõ to shout, cry loudly

I really like how all the other languages say it means "to screech" or "to shout" and then Estonian is like "yup, that's how we talk". :lol:

Yes, but don't forget, in Estonian the same word is used when talking about how everyone else speaks, too. You know, "Naava räägib soome keelt" and things like that. :mrgreen:
That's why I found it so interesting that Votic has a special verb (lägätä) that means "to speak Izhorian". Wouldn't be be funny if all the languages did that with each other, in other words, if Estonians were to say rääkima to mean "to speak Estonian" but then use the verb puhuma to mean "to speak Finnish" ("Naava puhub soome keelt" - and I think I have actually seen that sort of thing sometimes, but perhaps just as a joke or ironic way of saying it) and so on, while Finnish were to use rääkyä for "to speak Estonian," läkistä for "to speak Izhorian", etc. So that if a person spoke all of those languages then they'd say that they know how to "shout Estonian, blow Finnish, cough out Ingrian and conjure up Võro".
Oh wow that could be fun.
:whistle: