Cognates and semantic shifts

Linguaphile
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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-17, 2:28

(vot) muikutta to yawn
(vot) muikisõlla to make a sulky face; to smirk
(liv) muidlõ to smile, to smirk
(et) muigama to smile slightly, smirk, chuckle
(et) muiglema to be smiling often
(vro) mujahtama to smile slightly
(liv) mujāldõ to smile slightly
(fi) muikistaa to pucker one's lips, to grimace
(et) muigutama to move one's lips; to taste
(fi) muikea tart, sour (of flavor); smug (of expression)
(krl) muikie sour
(lud) muiged sour, acrid
(vep) (lud) muiged sour
(olo) muigei sour, gone sour
(olo) muijota to ferment, to turn sour, to suffocate
(lud) muigota to turn sour
(vep) (lud) mujada to taste


(et) ase (aseme) bed; place
(vro) asõ (asõmõ) bed; place
(liv) azūm bed; place; trail
(liv) azmõz place; situation
(myv) эзем bench, seat, chair
(kca) ӑсәм pillow
(mns) осма pillow
(vot) asu tool, dish, boat
(yrk) ӈэсо place for pitching a tent
(olo) azuo to do, to make ready
(lud) azuda to do, to make ready
(fi) asua to live, to stay in a place
(et) asuma to be located
(fi) asettaa to put, set up, organize
(fi) asema position, situation, status, station


From Proto-Finnic *muikeda (first set) and Proto-Uralic *aśe (second set). Sources: Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat, NorthEuraLex, VOT Vadja keele sõnaraamat, ERSA Estonian-Erzya Dictionary, Synaq Võro-Eesti-Võro Sõnaraamat, Līvõkīel-ēstikīel-lețkīel sõnārōntõz, Saagpakk's Eesti-Inglise Sõnaraamat, Wiktionary. Keeleveeb.

Edit: fixed typo in Finnish.
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-07-17, 13:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-17, 5:48

(fi) (krl) koti home
(fi) koto home
(vep) (olo) (lud) kodi home
(fi) kota cone-shaped hut
(vot) kõta chamber, house
(et) (vro) koda chamber, house, dwelling, entryway
Hiiumaa Estonian (et-hiu) koda entryway, threshing floor
(vep) koda cabin, booth, kennel
(vro) kodo home
(et) kodu home
(liv) kuodā house, chamber, building
(mrj) куды house, summer kitchen
(mhr) кудо house, summer kitchen
(myv) кудо house, home, livingroom
(mdf) куд house. livingroom
(smi-smk) куэдтҍ tent, hut
(smi-sms) kueʹtt tent, hut
(smi-smn) kuáti tent, hut
(smi-smp) gåhte house, tent, hut
(smi-smu) gå̄htie tent, hut
(smi-sms) gåetie house, home, tent, hut
(smi-smj) goahte tent, hut
(smi-sme) goahti tent, hut
(udm) корка1 house, dwelling, building, home
(kv-kpv) керка1 house, home, family, native place
(kv-koi) керку1 house
Eastern Khanty (kca-eas) кат house
Northern Khanty (kca-nor) хат house
(hu) ház house, home, building, dynasty

From Proto-Uralic *kota. Sources for the Uralic etymologies: Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat, Kotimaisten kileten keskus, NorthEuraLex, VOT Vadja keele sõnaraamat, Kielipankki, ERSA Estonian-Erzya Dictionary, Estonian-Mari Dictionary, Neahttadigisánit, Bidumsáme Báhkogirrje, Synaq Võro-Eesti-Võro Sõnaraamat, Līvõkīel-ēstikīel-lețkīel sõnārōntõz. (FWIW these are my usual sources for most of my previous posts in this thread as well.)
-
Apparently this is a Eurasian Wanderwort, with similar words in languages as diverse as Turkish (kodak "home"), Tamil (குடி kuṭi "house, home, town, lineage"), and Ainu (コタン kotan "village").
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1 For Udmurt and Komi, the cognate is evident only as the second part of compounds and appears here as -ка, -ку. Elsewhere it can also be -ко, such as in the words for "church" ((kv-kpv) вичко, (udm) вуко).
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-07-18, 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby voron » 2019-07-17, 6:48

Linguaphile wrote:Apparently this is a Eurasian Wanderwort, with similar words in languages as diverse as Turkish (kodak "home")

Wikipedia may be wrong, there is no "kodak" in Turkish, at least not in the modern standard Turkish. The most extensive Turkish dictionary is TDK, and it does not have this word.
http://sozluk.gov.tr/

There is "konak" though with the meaning "residence, mansion".

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-07-17, 8:01

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) muikista to pucker one's lips, to grimace

Muikistaa

Linguaphile wrote:(vro) kodo home

There's also (fi) koto, 'home'. You can see it for example in kotona, 'at home', and lintukoto, a mythological place where birds go for winter and where the souls of the dead might sometimes go, too. Nowadays it refers to any place that is small, cozy, and safe.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-17, 13:34

voron wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Apparently this is a Eurasian Wanderwort, with similar words in languages as diverse as Turkish (kodak "home")

Wikipedia may be wrong, there is no "kodak" in Turkish, at least not in the modern standard Turkish. The most extensive Turkish dictionary is TDK, and it does not have this word.
http://sozluk.gov.tr/

There is "konak" though with the meaning "residence, mansion".

Thanks, that's exactly why I just put it as a footnote with "apparently" and the link. I also noticed that Wiktionary lists Persian "کد‎ (kad, “house”)" but the link goes to an entry for a word meaning "code". குடி seems legit (meaning both "house, home, town..." and "drink") as a word, but isn't actually all that similar to *kota. And most of the words mentioned in the Wiktionary list don't even have active links or cited sources. Combine that with the known errors and stuff I can't verify from other sources, and this is why I don't trust Wiktionary. :P

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) muikista to pucker one's lips, to grimace

Muikistaa

But it is muikista- ...
muikistan, muikistat, muikistamme, ei muikista.... :twisted:
Nah, I fixed it. :D Actually listing the stems would show the cognates more closely because the infinitive endings tend to be different in each language even where the stems are identical, but yeah, that's not what I meant to do there.

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(vro) kodo home

There's also (fi) koto, 'home'. You can see it for example in kotona, 'at home', and lintukoto, a mythological place where birds go for winter and where the souls of the dead might sometimes go, too. Nowadays it refers to any place that is small, cozy, and safe.

There's also (vot) kottoo 'to home', (vot) koii 'of home', (et) koju 'to home', Estonian dialect near Võrtsjärv (et) kotu 'at home' (dial.), Western dialects (et) kottu 'from home' (dial.), Western dialects (et) kotto 'from home' (dial.), (vep) kodihe 'to home', and so on. There tend to be a lot of irregular forms for this word in Finnic languages (using stem changes in place of case endings). If I had listed all of the changes that occur with case forms or dialect forms that I came across, the list would have been enormous! I just decided to list the most common nominative form for each language (for each meaning, so for Finnish koti and kota) and leave it at that.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-17, 20:21

Meadow Mari (mhr) кече sun
Hill Mari (mrj) кечӹ sun
(myv) чи sun ( :!: from the final syllable only)
(mdf) ши sun ( :!: from the final syllable only)
(udm) кыӵ eyelet
(udm) кыӵес loop
(olo) kečoi ring on a spindle
(kca) kö̆tš ring (small ring around something) (unsure of Cyrillic spelling :?: )
Kihnu Estonian (et-kih) kjõts disc, wheel (dialect)
Northern Mansi (mns) кис hoop (of a barrel, etc)
Kildin Saami (smi) кӣссэ to wrap, wind into a ball
Skolt Saami (smi) ǩiõssâd to wrap, wind into a ball
Inari Saami (smi) kiessâđ to wrap, wind into a ball
Northern, Pite, and Lule Saami (smi) giessat to wrap, wind into a ball
Ume Saami (smi-smu) giässat to wrap, wind into a ball
South Saami (smi-sms) gïesedh to wrap, wind into a ball
(et) ketas disc, wheel
kehä rings that can be seen around the sun
(fi) kehä circle, ring; framework (of a building), roll
(olo) kehä ring, framework, round base
(lud) kehä kangakeha; tohukera (not sure how to translate :?: ; something to do with cloth, bark)
(et) keha body
(vro) kihä body
(liv) kejā body, belly, container
(hu) kégy (archaic :?: ) circle; stadium, landmark

From Proto-Uralic *keččä, *käččä. Sources: Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat, Kotimaisten kileten keskus, Estonian-Mari Dictionary, Synaq Võro-Eesti-Võro Sõnaraamat, ERSA Estonian-Erzya Dictionary, Līvõkīel-ēstikīel-lețkīel sõnārōntõz.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-07-18, 9:01

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) muikista to pucker one's lips, to grimace

Muikistaa

But it is muikista- ...
muikistan, muikistat, muikistamme, ei muikista.... :twisted:
Nah, I fixed it. :D

Never trust Finnish infinitives! If the infinitive was muikista, it'd be muikisen, muikiset, muikisemme, ei muikise... :D (cf. pulista - pulisen, puliset ; ropista - ropisen, ropiset ; tönäistä - tönäisen, tönäiset) I never realised how ridiculous the infinitives are until I tried to teach them to a non-native speaker... :roll:

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(vro) kodo home

There's also (fi) koto, 'home'. You can see it for example in kotona, 'at home', and lintukoto, a mythological place where birds go for winter and where the souls of the dead might sometimes go, too. Nowadays it refers to any place that is small, cozy, and safe.

There's also (vot) kottoo 'to home', (vot) koii 'of home', (et) koju 'to home', Estonian dialect near Võrtsjärv (et) kotu 'at home' (dial.), Western dialects (et) kottu 'from home' (dial.), Western dialects (et) kotto 'from home' (dial.), (vep) kodihe 'to home', and so on. There tend to be a lot of irregular forms for this word in Finnic languages (using stem changes in place of case endings). If I had listed all of the changes that occur with case forms or dialect forms that I came across, the list would have been enormous! I just decided to list the most common nominative form for each language (for each meaning, so for Finnish koti and kota) and leave it at that.

Am I not allowed to add to your lists? :) I thought it's interesting we have the same form as Võro.

I also think you misunderstood me. koto is not an irregular or dialectal form of koti but a descendant of Proto-Finnic *kota. (*) It's a word of its own with a complete paradigm, so imo it's quite different from the examples you listed. Its nominative form is rarely seen on its own (so if you wanted to list only the most common nominatives, it's fine) but its old locative forms never fell out of fashion for some reason. It's also used in compounds and in derivation. That's why I thought it's relevant here - it's not 100% archaic and forgotten. :)

* koti comes from *kotei, from *kota+i.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-18, 14:23

Naava wrote:Am I not allowed to add to your lists? :) I thought it's interesting we have the same form as Võro.

Oh, of course you are, and yes it is! I'm so sorry if I gave that impression. :oops: It's just that kotona is one of the (few :mrgreen: ) Finnish words I know without looking it up, and I was just explaining why I hadn't included it in the list myself to begin with.
As for my comment that the "list would have been enormous," I also don't have any objection to an enormous list. It would be cool! Add all you want! I only meant that I had not put everything on the list myself and wasn't going to attempt to do so. What I described to you was what I used to determine whether or not my list was "finished" enough to post; if I hadn't made parameters like that for myself I'd still be looking up words and etymologies for this one list, maybe for all eternity. :mrgreen:
It is an interesting word with lots of variations. (Like the changes that occur when you make some of the words with the "home" meaning genitive: (vro) kua, (vot) kõaa, (vot) kojaa, (et) koja. Or short illatives: (vro) kodo, (vot) kottoo, (et) koju, (liv) kuodāj. Or adverbs with elative meanings: (fi) & (vot) kotoa, (et) kodunt, (liv) kuondõ, although many languages just use the actual elative instead: (vro) kotost, (et) kodust, (liv) kuondõst. Not to even get started on dialects and their variations and declensions and variations of declensions: Western Votic Genitive (vot) kotii, Western Estonian Short Illative (et) kotto, Northeastern Estonian Short Illative (et) kodoje, etc., of which I'm certain Finnish has many. And Votic has (vot) kotona as well. In Võro the word (vro) koton is the inessive form of kodo, used fairly interchangeably with (vro) kodon. Inessive in Võro is formed with -n, it's still a productive case ending there.) And so on - and since for some languages, my sources only list the nominative forms, there are surely many more that I haven't come across that would be interesting to compare, but I don't know them and haven't found them. That's why I decided to stick to the most common nominative forms. Otherwise I could go on forever! (Which I'm not saying to say you shouldn't have mentioned yours or shouldn't mention more. I mean that really, I could go on forever and it'd be fun, but what's the point? I don't even think many people here are all that interested, and although I do this for fun because it's interesting to me, I really should probably be doing more productive things with my time. This is not in response to your comment, Naava - just my own thoughts on my own posts.)

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-07-19, 10:25

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:Am I not allowed to add to your lists? :) I thought it's interesting we have the same form as Võro.

Oh, of course you are, and yes it is! I'm so sorry if I gave that impression. :oops: It's just that kotona is one of the (few :mrgreen: ) Finnish words I know without looking it up, and I was just explaining why I hadn't included it in the list myself to begin with.

It's okay, I got what you meant now. :)

It is an interesting word with lots of variations. (Like the changes that occur when you make some of the words with the "home" meaning genitive: (vro) kua, (vot) kõaa, (vot) kojaa, (et) koja.

I don't know if you know but in case you don't/someone else is interested: this happens because the weak grade of /t/ used to be [ð]. When it was lost, each dialect and language developed their own way to "replace" it. I'm not sure what the original form was but I would guess it was *kota > *koða > *koa. Looks like Estonian and Votic have inserted a glide, and Votic and Võro have changed the vowel. And now I'm tempted to check if that's happened with other similar words. There must be some previous theories and studies on sound changes in these languages and I could read them, but where's the fun in that?
Eastern Finnish dialects use a glide by the way, and so the genitive of 'home' is kojin. I couldn't find what the genitive of kota would be. I know that the genitive of sota is sovan so it could be kota : kovan , but kovan is also the genitive of kova, 'hard'. They might have tried to avoid creating homonyms and use koan instead. :hmm: But then again, my dialect has koron (from koto btw!) and korin (from koti) and that's homonymous with the genitive of korko, 'a heel, an interest (on loan)', and the genitive of kori, 'a basket', and it hasn't bothered anyone so...

Or short illatives: (vro) kodo, (vot) kottoo, (et) koju, (liv) kuodāj. Or adverbs with elative meanings: (fi) & (vot) kotoa, (et) kodunt, (liv) kuondõ, although many languages just use the actual elative instead: (vro) kotost, (et) kodust, (liv) kuondõst. Not to even get started on dialects and their variations and declensions and variations of declensions: Western Votic Genitive (vot) kotii, Western Estonian Short Illative (et) kotto, Northeastern Estonian Short Illative (et) kodoje, etc., of which I'm certain Finnish has many.

Surprisingly, not so many. My dialect (and some others) use kotia for 'to home'. Some dialects have a similar form but with a different vowel, kotio. The dialects that double P, T, and K before a long vowel have kottiin but that happens with any word, not just 'koti'. Some dialect(s?) have (had?) the exessive kotonta for 'from home'. (This has been used with other words as well.) Of course it's surprising that we use the word koto and the old locative and separative cases for 'at home' and 'from home', but all in all, this word doesn't have very many variants.

And so on - and since for some languages, my sources only list the nominative forms, there are surely many more that I haven't come across that would be interesting to compare, but I don't know them and haven't found them.

I wish I could help you in this, but I don't speak any other Uralic languages than Finnish and Estonian. I can tell you a lot about Finnish dialects and sound changes from Proto-Uralic to this day, but if we start talking about other languages, all I can do is to google. I doubt I'd be better at it than you. :)

I mean that really, I could go on forever and it'd be fun, but what's the point? I don't even think many people here are all that interested, and although I do this for fun because it's interesting to me, I really should probably be doing more productive things with my time.

I refuse to understand what you mean by "doing more productive things". 8-)

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-17, 22:16

(et) põud drought; paucity, scarcity
(fi) pouta dry, sunny weather
(vot) põuta dry, sunny weather
(vep) poud nice weather, clear weather
(lud) poud nice weather, clear weather
(olo) poudu clear summer weather
(smi-smj) påuťē dry weather, period in between storms
(vot) põvvakaᴢ dry, sunny1
Courland Livonian (liv-cur) pȭda warm and humid, muggy2, sultry2,3; warm and dry4
Courland Livonian (liv-cur) pȭdi warm and humid, muggy2, sultry2,3
Salatsi Livonian (liv-sal) pǖda sultry3

--
Sources: ETY, Kallio, LELS, Synaq, VOT

1 (vot) põvva = genitive form of põuta + -kaz adjective-forming suffix
2 (et) sombune, lämbe; (lv) tveicīgs according to LELS
3 (en) sultry according to Petri Kallio, "Historical Phonology from Proto-Finnic to Proto-Livonian"
4 (et) kuum ja kuiv according to ETY (probably incorrect given the meanings of 'humid/sultry' given in other sources)
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-08-22, 0:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-21, 0:26

(lud) küľľäl enough, plenty; indeed; surely, certainly
(fi) kyllä yes; indeed; abundance, sufficiency
(olo) küľľü large; bulky; plentiful
(et) küll enough, plenty; indeed; surely, certainly
(vot) küll enough, plenty; indeed; surely, certainly
(vro) külh enough, plenty; indeed; surely, certainly
(liv) kil enough, plenty; indeed; surely, certainly
Inari (smi-smn) kal yes
Skolt (smi-sms) kâl yes; indeed, though
Kildin (smi-smk) калль enough, sufficient; satisfied; full stomach, well-fed
North (smi-sme) gal indeed; surely, certainly
Lule (smi-smj) galli how many times
North (smi-sme) galle enough; how many; what time
Lule (smi-smj) galle enough; how many; sufficient
Lule (smi-smj) gallen what time
(vot) külläin full stomach; fattened; satisfied
(et) küllane rich, abundant; imbued with [attached to noun]; full stomach
(vep) külläine full stomach; fat, content
(lud) küľľäine full stomach
(fi) kylläinen full stomach; saturated

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-21, 13:42

(fi) vihma drizzle that is carried in the wind (Estonian: uduvihm*)
(vot) vihma rain
vihma rain
(olo) vihmu rain
(et) vihm rain
(lud) vihm rain
(vep) vihm rain
(liv) vīm rain
Inari (smi-smn) vasme recently-fallen thin snow (Estonian: äsja sadanud õhuke lumi)
Lule (smi-smj) vassme recently-fallen thin snow
Skolt (smi-sms) vâ'smm recently-fallen thin snow
North (smi-sme) vasmi snowfall

Source: ETY and Naava.

*Uduvihm: literally "fog-rain" or "mist-rain". Saagpakk's dictionary calls uduvihm Scotch mist.
Edit: added Northern, Lule, and Skolt Saami (from Álgu).
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-08-23, 2:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-22, 0:44

(vot) sato rainfall, snowfall, sleetfall; rainshower, snow shower, etc.
(et) sadu rainfall, snowfall, sleetfall; rainshower, snow shower, etc.
(fi) sade rain (also precipitation :?: )
(vep) sade (usually plural: sadeged) precipitation (rain, snow, sleet, or hail that falls to the ground)
(et) sade (usually plural: sademed) precipitation (rain, snow, sleet, or hail that falls to the ground); sediment, residue
(vro) sadõmõq* sundog, parhelion
(et) sadama (3s: sajab) to rain, snow, hail, sleet, etc.
(vro) sadama (3s: sataq) to rain, snow, hail, sleet, etc.
(vep) sadada (3s: sadab) to rain, snow, hail, sleet, etc.
(vot) sataa (3s: sataab) to rain, snow, hail, sleet, etc.
(krl) šaje rain
(yrk) сарё rain, rainshower
Forest Enets сари rain
Kamassian сурну rain
(nio) соруа rain, rainshower
Selkup cop rain
(udm) зор rain, wet weather
(kv)зэр rain, rainshower

*I am not certain that (vro) sadõmõq has the same etymology as the other words (i.e. Proto-Finnic *sadek), but it seems likely for several reasons:
    (1) A shift in meaning of (et) sademed (precipitation) to (vro) sadõmõq (sundog, parhelion) involves meteorological phenomena in both cases, and the substitution of one meteorological phenomenon for another doesn't seem unprecedented (they are quite different meteorological phenomena but have at least that much in common; cf. the rest of this thread for other shifts which are seem to be at least as divergent in meaning).
    (2) The pair (et) sademed (vro) sadõmõq follows the same phonological pattern as other words (c.f. (et) varemed (vro) varõmõq;
    (3)Võro rather conspicuously lacks a cognate (or even non-cognate word) referring to rain or precipitation; the translation of (et) sademed in Võro is (vro) vihm ja lumi ("rain and snow"); since neighboring Finnic languages do have this word for "percipitation" this makes me suspect that the word which once meant "precipitation" shifted to the meaning of "sundog, parhelion" in Võro without another word filling the "void" the shift left behind.
    Still, for sadõmõq this is just my guess and my rationale for it, not a definite etymology. The other words listed above come from my usual sources (linked in posts above).

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-08-22, 10:42

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) pouta dry, sunny weather

It's 'sunny weather' in spoken language, but officially it means just dry weather (no rain).

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kyllä yes; indeed; abundance, sufficiency

Where did you get abundance/sufficiency? :hmm: Wiktionary does translate it as 'abundance' but marks it as obsolete. There's also the derived word kylläinen that means 'full (stomach); saturated (chemistry)', so it looks like kyllä has meant 'abundance' at some point - but how about sufficiency? Where did that come from?

Linguaphile wrote:*Uduvihm: literally "fog-rain" or "mist-rain". Saagpakk's dictionary calls uduvihm Scotch mist.

That sounds more like tihku to me, although eki.ee translates vihma as 'uduvihm' and wiktionary translates it as 'drizzle' with no mention of wind and even gives tihku as its synonym. I already started to think I'm mistaken or that it's dialectal or something*, but then I noticed that wiktionary says the verb vihmoa means 'to drizzle and blow simultaneously'. So... I don't know what's going on. :lol:


* For some reason it never occured to me that there could be dialect specific weather terms before I moved to Tampere and tried to tell my friends the weather's not too bad, just some pisko-s and they had no idea what I was talking about. They use pisara. Both mean 'a drop (of water)', although IMO pisko is bigger than pisara. :P They also didn't know what räpäskä is. It's water disguised as snow, so the "snow"flakes are heavy and make your clothes wet the moment they hit you. I really think my friends ought to learn this word and start using it. We've got so much "snow" like that during the last few years! :)

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-22, 13:26

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kyllä yes; indeed; abundance, sufficiency

Where did you get abundance/sufficiency? :hmm: Wiktionary does translate it as 'abundance' but marks it as obsolete. There's also the derived word kylläinen that means 'full (stomach); saturated (chemistry)', so it looks like kyllä has meant 'abundance' at some point - but how about sufficiency? Where did that come from?

I got it from Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat (ETY):
Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat wrote:küll (mingit väidet eriliselt toonitav sõna)
● soome kyllä 'jah; küllus, piisavus'

Piisavus is "sufficiency/adequacy/satisfactoriness;" we have already mentioned "full stomach", and if you think about a full stomach in the context of "sufficiency/adequacy/satisfactoriness," then the connection does makes sense. But I think ETY doesn't always point out when a usage is obsolete (maybe because the focus is exclusively etymological); they also often include dialect forms, but normally they do mark those as dialect, so I doubt that's the case here.
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:*Uduvihm: literally "fog-rain" or "mist-rain". Saagpakk's dictionary calls uduvihm Scotch mist.

That sounds more like tihku to me, although eki.ee translates vihma as 'uduvihm' and wiktionary translates it as 'drizzle' with no mention of wind and even gives tihku as its synonym.

Yes, ETY translates vihma as uduvihm as well.
I checked the entry for tihku in the Finnish-Estonian dictionary and tihku is translated as "uduvihm, seenevihm" there (seenevihm is a light drizzle, usually a warm one - good mushroom weather :mrgreen: ).

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-22, 23:06

Another weather one! Naava, please, check my translations for Finnish sumea. It has more meanings than any of the other words and that makes me suspicious of it. :mrgreen: (Well, sume in Estonian is rather similar though.) But also it's because once again I'm translating some of it via Estonian and not positive about whether my translations for Finnish convey the right connotations. For example, the translation of sumea as "cloudy": I understand this to be like cloudy water or a dirty window (hard to see through), not clouds in the sky. Is that right? And are any of these meanings obsolete?

standard Estonian (et) sume soft, gentle; cloudy; foggy; dim
Ludic (lud) sume drizzle, misty rain
Livvi Karelian (olo) sumeh drizzle, misty rain
Veps (vep) sumeg drizzle, misty rain
Kihnu dialect of Estonian (et-kih) sumõ foggy and warm
Votic (vot) sumõttia to drizzle; to mist
Finnish (fi) sumea hazy, foggy; cloudy (murky?), blurry; dim, dark
Koduvere dialect of Estonian (et-kod) suma hazy, cloudy
Finnish (fi) sumu thick fog that reduces visibility (per Naava: visibility less than 1km)
Kuusalu dialect of Estonian (et-kuu) sumu fog over the ocean
standard Estonian (et) sumu light fog, haze
Laiuse dialect of Estonian (et-lai) somu light fog, haze
Inari Saami (smi-smn) somo fog
Northern Saami (smi-sme) sopmu = sapmu thin fog, especially summer haze with fine rain
Lule Saami (smi-smj) såpmē cloudy (with thin cloud cover)
Kildin Saami (smi-smk) sååm thick winter fog
Skolt Saami (smi-sms) sååm cloudy weather without rain; fog
Erzya (myv) сув fog
Moksha (mdf) сув fog

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-24, 5:37

From Proto-Uralic *ilma "sky/heaven, weather/air, god". The meanings of "without" and "obvious/in reality" (etc.) seem to be derived from various case forms probably based on the meanings of "air" and "world".
Note that ilma and (liv) īlma are listed twice (once each in each of the first two sets) because the same word is used with both meanings.
It's also interesting how the meanings don't follow the usual geographical pattern; for example Mansi and Khanty share the "weather, air" meanings with the Finnic languages, while Saami (which is usually closer to Finnic than Mansi/Khanty are) instead shares the "sky" meaning with Udmurt.

(et) ilm weather; world
(lud) ilm weather; air
(vro) ilm weather; climate; world; universe
(vep) iľm air
(liv) ilmu weather; air
(vot) ilma weather; air; world
(fi) ilma weather; air
ilma weather, air; without
(liv) īlma world; very large amount; without
(kca) иләм world; air; weather
(mns) э̄ләм time; air; weather
Skolt (smi-sms) â'lmm sky
Inari (smi-smn) alme sky, heaven
Lule (smi-smj) almme sky, heaven
Pite (smi-smp) albme sky, heaven
Ume (smi-smu) albmie sky, heaven
North (smi-sme) albmi sky; heaven; snowdrift
Kildin (smi-smk) алльм sky; snowstorm, blizzard
(udm) ин sky
(udm) инмар god (note: there is also (fi) Ilmatar air spirit & (fi) Ilmarinen name of a mythical god, etc.)
(kv) ен god; icon
(kv) енэж sky (compound of ен + эж 'blanket, cover, surface')

North (smi-sme) almmá without
(et) ilma without
(vro) ilma without
(vep) ilma without
ilma without; weather, air
(liv) īlma without; world; very large amount
(liv) īlmõ without
(fi) ilman without
(lud) ilmai without
(vot) ilmaa without; devoid; in vain
(liv) ilmai gratuitous, free of charge

(fi) ilmi public, out in the open; obviously, completely; (in compounds) completely, very, real
(vro) ilmu in reality
(vot) ilmõõ in reality
(liv) ilmõs in reality
(et) ilm- (in compounds) completely, very
(et) ilmsi in reality; openly
(et) ilmne obvious, apparent, clear (> ilmselt obviously, apparently, etc.)
Kildin (smi-smk) олльм- obvious, apparent
Skolt (smi-smk) õlmm- obvious, apparent
Inari (smi-smn) olmâ right, decent
North (smi-sme) albma real, authentic, genuine
South (smi-sms) alme very; certainly
Lule (smi-smj) almma real, certain
Ume (smi-smu) albma certainly not
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-08-25, 2:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Naava
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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-08-24, 11:40

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kyllä yes; indeed; abundance, sufficiency

Where did you get abundance/sufficiency? :hmm: Wiktionary does translate it as 'abundance' but marks it as obsolete. There's also the derived word kylläinen that means 'full (stomach); saturated (chemistry)', so it looks like kyllä has meant 'abundance' at some point - but how about sufficiency? Where did that come from?

I got it from Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat (ETY):
Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat wrote:küll (mingit väidet eriliselt toonitav sõna)
● soome kyllä 'jah; küllus, piisavus'

Oh, Finnish Wiktionary lists piisavus/sufficiency, too, but English Wiktionary doesn't. Interesting. :hmm: (It's still obsolete, though.)

But hey, thanks to you I've finally found out what one of the lines in a Christmas song I loved as a kid means. :) It was published in 1901 and there's two now obsolete words, one of which is kyllä: on äiti laittanut kystä kyllä, 'mother has made enough food [for everyone]' / 'mother has made lots of food'. I've always assumed kyllä means 'indeed' here, but nope, I was wrong. :D

FYI, more words that were derived from kyllä:
kyllin, kylliksi - enough
----> yllin kyllin - abundantly, plentifully, enough and to spare
kyllyys, kylläisyys - being full of something ; satiation, saturation (the first one especially in the phrase sydämensä kyllyydestä - from the bottom of one's heart)
----> yltäkylläisyys - abundance
kyllästyä, kyllääntyä - to get bored with, get tired of, get sick of, get fed up with ; (in chemistry:) to be saturated, be impregnated
----> and the derivations from this eg. kyllästyttävä - boring, kyllästynyt - bored

(Not to imply you should've added these to your list, I'm just amazed by how many words there are! :D)

Linguaphile wrote:Naava, please, check my translations for Finnish sumea. It has more meanings than any of the other words and that makes me suspicious of it.

sumea itself doesn't have all that many meanings, it's just that English doesn't have an exact translation for it :mrgreen:

Finnish Wiktionary says sumea means "ei selvä(piirteinen), epäselvä; huonosti läpinäkyvä; epätarkka" = not clear/distinct, unclear; hardly transparent; not sharp (eg. photos); blurry, fuzzy. In other words, something that doesn't have clear borders/edges or is hard to see through.

Some examples:
A window can be sumea if you haven't cleaned it. Your eyes can bee sumea if you've just woken up or have read a lot; and if you're buying a fish and it has sumea eyes, it means it's not fresh. Your vision can be sumea, and then you need to go to an optician or a doctor (if it started suddenly). The sky can be sumea if there's lots of grey clouds.* If there's a heavy fog, it's snowing a lot, or you're underwater, people and objects are sumea silhouettes. Lamps and the light they give can be sumea if they're dirty. You can also have a sumea feeling if you haven't slept well or if you have a disease. The weather or the day can be sumea if there's fog or sand or pollution in air.

* For example, someone who wished to see a comet wrote in Twitter that the sky is unfortunately sumea and posted this picture.

There's also the verbs sumentua and sumentaa, 'to blur (in concrete sense)', and sumeta, 'to become fuzzy, blurry'. (sumeta is used when you're about to faint and your vision goes blurry and then dark)

Linguaphile wrote:sumu thick fog that reduces visibility (per Naava: visibility less than 1km)

This is the official, scientific definition. In spoken language, people tend to call anything grey-stuff-above-the-ground sumu. Like this, this, this, and this could all be called sumu.

Linguaphile wrote: ilmi public, out in the open; obviously, completely; (in compounds) completely, very, real

I'd say ilmi doesn't mean obviously or completely on its own but only as a modifier of compounds.

ilmi can also mean 'public/out in the open/obvious' in compounds, for example ilmiantaja (lit. ilmi-giver) = informer, ilmiantaa = to inform, report (a crime, dissenter etc.), ilmiasu = appearance, phenotype.

I'm not entirely sure about 'completely, very, real'. Finnish Wiktionary only lists 'public, out in the open' and 'to be brought to the sight'. English Wiktionary says ilmiriita is an example of the meaning 'real', but if you check the page for ilmiriita itself, it's defined as 'heated public argument'. Finnish Wiktionary has 'an open difference in opinion' and 'obvious quarrel' in addition to the 'heated public argument'. So...

But if your fight is so bad it's obvious to everyone or becomes public, I'd say it's also a very real fight. :)

Linguaphile wrote: ilmne obvious, apparent, clear (> ilmselt obviously, apparently, etc.)

(fi) ilmeinen obvious, evident
ilmeisesti apparently (spoken language), obviously (esp. law), supposedly, seemingly, evidently (esp. standard Finnish)

Linguaphile wrote:ilmai gratuitous, free of charge

(fi) ilmainen free of charge
ilman free of charge (spoken language, esp. in the phrase saada ilman, 'to get for free')
ilmaiseksi for free ; to get something without earning it
ilmatteeksi, ilmatteiksi for free ; to get something without earning it (dialectal, spoken language)

Bonus:
It also looks like (et)(fi) ilme 'facial expression' is related to ilm-. :shock:
And so is (fi) ilmoittaa 'to report, in the sense of notifying; to announce' and ilmaisu 'expression (particular way of phrasing an idea)'. I had never thought how many meanings we've got from one single small word!

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby h34 » 2019-08-24, 14:18

Linguaphile wrote:(kv) ен god; icon

I think in addition to this, the (older?) meaning of 'sky/heaven' is preserved in some expressions like шондiа енмöн, lit. 'with sunny sky', meaning 'by daylight' ('before nightfall') or енма-муа костын, 'between sky/heaven and earth'. (But the default translation of 'sky' seems to be енеж, according to the online dictionary at fu-lab.ru.)

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-24, 16:22

Naava wrote:FYI, more words that were derived from kyllä:
kyllin, kylliksi - enough
----> yllin kyllin - abundantly, plentifully, enough and to spare
kyllyys, kylläisyys - being full of something ; satiation, saturation (the first one especially in the phrase sydämensä kyllyydestä - from the bottom of one's heart)
----> yltäkylläisyys - abundance
kyllästyä, kyllääntyä - to get bored with, get tired of, get sick of, get fed up with ; (in chemistry:) to be saturated, be impregnated
----> and the derivations from this eg. kyllästyttävä - boring, kyllästynyt - bored

Very cool! Yeah, with both kyllä and ilma I was surprised by how many different meanings and derivatives there are - it's a bit like opening Pandora's box. Each new meaning leads to others. It's kind of fascinating to see all the ways in which the roots are used.

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Naava, please, check my translations for Finnish sumea. It has more meanings than any of the other words and that makes me suspicious of it.

sumea itself doesn't have all that many meanings, it's just that English doesn't have an exact translation for it :mrgreen:

Finnish Wiktionary says sumea means "ei selvä(piirteinen), epäselvä; huonosti läpinäkyvä; epätarkka" = not clear/distinct, unclear; hardly transparent; not sharp (eg. photos); blurry, fuzzy. In other words, something that doesn't have clear borders/edges or is hard to see through.

Totally makes sense! Estonian sume is similar that way in that there isn't an exact translation there either. Estonian adds "soft, gentle" though, which doesn't seem to be one of the meanings in Finnish. (In Estonian I suppose that could be an extension of the meaning "fuzzy" maybe.)

Naava wrote:I'm not entirely sure about 'completely, very, real'. Finnish Wiktionary only lists 'public, out in the open' and 'to be brought to the sight'. English Wiktionary says ilmiriita is an example of the meaning 'real', but if you check the page for ilmiriita itself, it's defined as 'heated public argument'. Finnish Wiktionary has 'an open difference in opinion' and 'obvious quarrel' in addition to the 'heated public argument'. So...

But if your fight is so bad it's obvious to everyone or becomes public, I'd say it's also a very real fight. :)

I think it may be another one of those words that doesn't have an exact English equivalent. What do you think? Many of my translations in that section didn't seem to quite capture the exact meanings, to be honest.
For example: Estonian ilmsi and Võro ilmu translate as "in reality", but it has an implied contrast with a dream-state, to the extent that another possible translation could even be "in a wakeful state" (but this isn't quite right because it should describe the situation, while "in a wakeful state" describes the person) or "in waking hours" (but again - it's the situation not the "hours" that matter here) or something along those lines; I'm actually not all that sure what the equivalent expression should be in English. For most contexts "in reality" seems like the best translation (I think it's generally what we'd say in English in the situations in which ilmsi and ilmu would be used), but to me it still doesn't have quite the right "feel" or connotation to it. (The Estonian meaning of "openly" which I also listed exists, but is less common, and Estonian dictionaries treat it as a separate meaning.)

So back to Finnish ilmi- and Estonian ilm- in compounds. For Estonian, the EKSS dictionary defines the prefix ilm- as a prefix that strengthens the content (meaning) of the root (tugevdab põhisõna sisu). Some examples are:
    ilmselge - crystal-clear, clear as day (selge = "clear")
    ilmvõimatu - completely impossible (võimatu = "impossible"; võima = "to be able, may, can, could")
    ilmsüütu - completely innocent (süütu = "guiltless, innocent"; süü = "guilt")
    ilmalati - absolutely always (alati = "always")
    ilmkuulmatu - totally unheard of, unprecedented (kuulmatu = unheard, inaudible; kuulma = to hear)
    ilmkärakas - strong blast, strong explosion (kärakas = blast)
    ilmtingimata - entirely necessarily; without fail (tingimata = necessarily, by all means; tingima = to condition, to determine)
The funny thing is that bilingual dictionaries don't seem to know what to make of these. Most don't list the prefix or most of the words that use it, except for ilmselge and occasionally one or two others. Saagpakk's dictionary lists the prefix, but gets the meaning wrong (which is quite rare for Saagpakk's dictionary! :shock: It lists all kinds of outdated words, but if you take into account the time and place the dictionary was written, it hardly ever gets them actually wrong). Saagpakk's dictionary says:
Saagpakk wrote:ilm- pref. un- in- (e.g. ilmvõimatu)

so it equates the prefix ilm- with the English negating prefixes un- and in-, but this is not correct. It is the -tu suffix that gives ilmvõimatu its negative meaning, not the ilm- prefix. I suppose Saagpakk came to that conclusion from the meanings of words like ilmvõimatu, ilmsüütu, and ilmkuulmatu and perhaps the meaning of ilma ("without") reinforced that idea, but the prefix is ilm- not *ilma-, and all of the words with negative meanings have the suffix -tu which is what makes them negative. (You can see how the possibility of ilm- meaning of "un-, in-" falls apart when you get to words like ilmalati "absolutely always" and ilmselge "crystal clear" etc. It's only the words that end in -tu that have the negated meanings. I'm really quite startled to find this error in Saagpakk's dictionary, because it's puzzling to me that Saagpakk would have made this mistake, but I'm really certain it's a mistake.)

Naava wrote:Bonus:
It also looks like (et)(fi) ilme 'facial expression' is related to ilm-. :shock:
And so is (fi) ilmoittaa 'to report, in the sense of notifying; to announce' and ilmaisu 'expression (particular way of phrasing an idea)'. I had never thought how many meanings we've got from one single small word!

Oooh, nice! I hadn't even thought of ilme in Estonian.
Okay, so about ilme: regarding the meaning of "facial expression" it seems Finnish is relatively alone in this. As you mentioned, Estonian has it. But Estonian borrowed it from Finnish during the language reform (circa early 1900s), and ETY claims that in Finnish it came into use in the mid-1800s. None of the other Finnic or Saamic languages (or other Uralic as far as I know) have a cognate with the "facial expression" meaning. In place of a cognate of ilme mostly they use words related to nägu "face" (as you know, etymologically from the verb "to see"), or vurvh (from German Wurf "fling, throw, cast :?: ") or välimus ("outer appearance"), etc.

h34 wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(kv) ен god; icon

I think in addition to this, the (older?) meaning of 'sky/heaven' is preserved in some expressions like шондiа енмöн, lit. 'with sunny sky', meaning 'by daylight' ('before nightfall') or енма-муа костын, 'between sky/heaven and earth'. In the lyrics of this song, ен was translated as 'sky' as well. (But the default translation of 'sky' seems to be енеж, according to the online dictionary at fu-lab.ru.)

Thanks! Do you know anything about the etymology of the word енеж? If it's etymologically related to ен (which seems quite likely) then it should have been on my list, too. :D
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-08-24, 19:12, edited 1 time in total.


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