Cognates and semantic shifts

h34
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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby h34 » 2019-08-24, 18:27

Linguaphile wrote:Thanks! Do you know anything about the etymology of the word енеж? If it's etymologically related to ен (which seems quite likely) then it should have been on my list, too. :D

According to this article, it is a compound, the second part (эж) meaning 'cover', 'blanket', 'surface',...

BTW, thanks a lot for posting all these, I didn't even know there was an etymological link between ilma and ен. This thread is always interesting and full of surprises. :D

Edit: Just realized I misspelt it. The correct spelling is енэж, not енеж ...

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-24, 19:13

h34 wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Thanks! Do you know anything about the etymology of the word енеж? If it's etymologically related to ен (which seems quite likely) then it should have been on my list, too. :D

According to this article, it is a compound, the second part (эж) meaning 'cover', 'blanket', 'surface',...

BTW, thanks a lot for posting all these, I didn't even know there was an etymological link between ilma and ен. This thread is always interesting and full of surprises. :D

Edit: Just realized I misspelt it. The correct spelling is енэж, not енеж ...

Thanks, h34! :D

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Naava
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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-08-25, 10:10

Linguaphile wrote: It's kind of fascinating to see all the ways in which the roots are used.

That's why I love this thread so much. :D And hey, thanks for finding all these words and making the lists! Saying this as if I wasn't copying what h34 did first lol.

Linguaphile wrote:Estonian adds "soft, gentle" though, which doesn't seem to be one of the meanings in Finnish. (In Estonian I suppose that could be an extension of the meaning "fuzzy" maybe.)

Yeah I haven't heard anyone using sumea for 'soft' but it kinda makes sense? If something has "non-sharp" edges, the edges look smooth, and if something is smooth, it's also soft... Or if you think about fog or clouds, 'hard' wouldn't be something I'd use to describe either. :)

Linguaphile wrote:I think it may be another one of those words that doesn't have an exact English equivalent. What do you think?

Sure, Finnish has lots of these tiny words that are used only in certain contexts (or with certain words). Like we have the word hipihiljaa: hiljaa means 'quietly' and hipihiljaa means 'very quietly', but would you say that hipi means 'very'? It's not used with any other word or on its own. Same with täpötäysi (completely full, very full; täpö doesn't mean anything on its own) or putipuhdas (completely/very clean; puti doesn't mean anything). Ilmi is slightly different from these because it has its own meaning (eg. tulla ilmi, 'to be revealed') and it's not based on alliteration (ilmielävä, ilmiselvä), but I still think it's more like a fortifier without one clear-cut meaning if you combine it with other nouns. If you translate these words, you would need to use something like 'very', 'completely', 'obviously', 'visibly' because English doesn't have a word for ilmi. It kinda means all these things, but it's still not the same IMO. I guess the major difference is that you can use the English words quite freely whereas the words with ilmi are almost lexicalised by now. You can't say that something very big is *ilmisuuri, for example. There's a group of ready-made words with ilmi and that's all you've got. I might miss one or two, but here's the ones I can remember/find right now:

    ilmianto - denunciaton, tip-off, accusation, laying of information (from antaa - to give)
    -----> ilmiantovelvollisuus duty to disclose, duty to inform [the police/the authorities], duty to report [to the police/to the authorities], duty to lay information, obligation to report to the police (velvollisuus - duty)
    -----> ilmiantaa - grass on sb, grass sb up, expose, report, ark rat on sb, shop sb to sb, split on sb (to sb) (antaa - to give)
    -----> ilmiantaja - informer, police informer, stool pigeon, rat, ark grass, nark, ark fink, denouncer, double-crosser, supergrass, snitch (antaja - someone who gives)
    ilmiasu - phenotype (asu - appearance, outward appearance, look)
    ilmielävä - in person, in the flesh; vivid, live (elävä - alive)
    -----> ilmielävänä - in the flesh (-nA - essive)
    -----> ilmielävästi - vividly (-sti - adverb)
    ilmiliekeissä - ablaze, consumed by fire (liekki - flame; -issA - plural inessive)
    ilmiriita - public quarrel, stand-up row, open conflict, open controversy, open quarrel (riita - fight, quarrel, argument)
    ilmiselvä - obvious, evident, plain, clear, manifest, blatant, flagrant, patent, self-evident (selvä - clear, distinct, plain, evident, apparent)
    ilmisota - shooting war (sota - war)
    ilmituleminen - detection (from tulla - to come)
    ilmitulo - disclosure, revelation, discovery, detection, exposure (from tulla - to come)
    ilmituominen - disclosure (from tuoda - to bring)
(Translations from the MOT dictionaries.)

IMO most of these have the meaning 'public' or 'obvious, visibly', although that is close to 'very, real'. But I dont think it's as obvious (:P) as in Estonian ilmvõimatu or ilmkärakas.

Many of my translations in that section didn't seem to quite capture the exact meanings, to be honest.

This is so true, no matter what you're translating or which languages you're using. It's actually the first thing I learnt in translation studies: you never manage to avoid losing some part(s) of the meaning. It's also the reason why I decided I don't want to be a translator/interpreter. (After the two first periods in my first year at uni, we we're asked if we want to continue our studies in linguistics or translation module. I chose linguistics, but it was cool that I got to read one book about translation for the entrance exam and then take one (mandatory) translation course because now I don't have any regrets or what if-scenarios in my head. :mrgreen:) Translating is really difficult and I respect all translators/interpreters so much. Especially those who do simultaneous interpreting.

I'm actually not all that sure what the equivalent expression should be in English.
. . .but to me it still doesn't have quite the right "feel" or connotation to it.

And this! You know, I study Finnish, literature, and English at uni. The first two are taught in Finnish, but English is taught in English. It's so horrible when I've had several courses in English and then I suddenly need to write an essay in Finnish - I'm automatically trying to write phrases like "in addition to this" or "in summary", and then I can't remember what they're in Finnish or it sounds really awkward and not academic at all. Or my favourites, however/nevertheless/nonetheless/despite this, which can all be replaced with kuitenkin. You know the feeling when you realise you've been repeating one word througout the essay? Or when I've finally got used to writing in Finnish again and I suddenly need to write an essay in English and try to use Finnish syntax which just doesn't work. Oh, the struggle! Ok this was a bit offtopic but oh boy don't I know how hard it is to translate things.

This is also why I like to give examples or describe the word instead of just translating it with other words. Even though patent can mean the same as ilmiselvä, it can also mean the piece of paper that prevents others from copying your inventions - and blatant and obvious kinda mean the same but I wouldn't recomment anyone to replace "isn't it obvious?" with "isn't it blatant?". :lol:

I'm really quite startled to find this error in Saagpakk's dictionary, because it's puzzling to me that Saagpakk would have made this mistake, but I'm really certain it's a mistake.

That's weird, but it proves that we're all humans and that anyone can make a mistake. And that you should never trust one source only. :)

Okay, so about ilme: regarding the meaning of "facial expression" it seems Finnish is relatively alone in this. As you mentioned, Estonian has it. But Estonian borrowed it from Finnish during the language reform (circa early 1900s), and ETY claims that in Finnish it came into use in the mid-1800s. None of the other Finnic or Saamic languages (or other Uralic as far as I know) have a cognate with the "facial expression" meaning.

Now I'm curious to know why we have a separate word for facial expressions when so many languages seem to do just fine without one. :hmm: I mean, it's a really useful word and I wish it existed in English for example! (I know you can say "sad face" etc but it's not the same.) But where we got it? Why has no one else come up with a similar word in other languages? :|

Also, two more words that I think have their roots in ilmi:
ilmiö - phenomenon, occurence ; prodigy*
----> ilmiömäinen - phenomenal, extraordinary, fantastic

Wiktionary says ilmiö was coined by Paavo Tikkanen in the 1850s.
(A bit offtopic but I absolutely love the neologisms in Finnish! There wasn't a uniform written language until the 19th-20th centuries, and no written language at all before the 16th century, so there was a lack of many terms and translations. Some people are famous for the words they created - some of these are still in use, while others sound absolutely hilarious nowadays. Did you know, for example, that Agricolatried to make us call lions noble deers? (Well we do have 'noble stones' (gemstone) and even English has noble gas, but it's still funny.) Or that he thought a proper name for 'graveyard' should be bone garden?
But I also like the words that became part of the language because nobody remembers that they were 100% made up by someone only a few hundred years ago. I mean, all words are made up by someone, sure, but we don't usually know the names or the dates when and who made them. My absolute favourite is sähkö, electricity, which isn't derived from any other word. Samuel Roos, who coined it, said that electricity reminded him of sähähtäminen, 'making a hissing noise', so there's some onomatopoeia - but it's not combined from other words like that creepy bone garden or a loan translation or simple add-some-suffixes-there-you-go.)


* Examples from MOT:
sääilmiö a weather phenomenon Huumeiden käyttö on valitettava ilmiö. Drug abuse is a deplorable phenomenon. Sattui outoja ilmiöitä. Some strange events took place. outo ilmiö esitelmätilaisuudessa a strange occurrence during a lecture Autovarkaus on yleinen ilmiö. Car theft is a common occurrence. Itsemurha on jokapäiväinen ilmiö vankilassa. Suicide is an everyday occurrence in prison. Kuten jalkapallomanagerit, kapellimestarit ovat nykyajan ilmiö. Like football managers, conductors are a phenomenon of the modern age.


-----------
Some new ideas:

(tingimata = necessarily, by all means; tingima = to condition, to determine)

This reminds me of
- tinkiä 1 haggle, haggle over the price, bargain [over the price] ; 2 reduce the price (the seller) 3 compromise, moderate, reduce, lower)
- its abessive tinkimättä (to the letter, rigidly, strictly, resolutely, unflinchingly)
(Examples: follow the instructions to the letter, strictly follow the instructions; perform one's duty unflinchingly)

Are these words related? They must be, they look so similar that it'd be a miracle if it was a coincidence. :hmm:

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before but:

(et) mure 1 sorrow, woe, grief 2 care, concern 3 anxiety, distress
(fi) mure, mures care, concern, worry [Southern Ostrobothnian dialect]
(fi) murhe sorrow, grief, worry, trouble

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-25, 15:28

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Estonian adds "soft, gentle" though, which doesn't seem to be one of the meanings in Finnish. (In Estonian I suppose that could be an extension of the meaning "fuzzy" maybe.)

Yeah I haven't heard anyone using sumea for 'soft' but it kinda makes sense? If something has "non-sharp" edges, the edges look smooth, and if something is smooth, it's also soft... Or if you think about fog or clouds, 'hard' wouldn't be something I'd use to describe either. :)

Hehe... we get some extremely dense and cold fog in winter where I live, and locally people do sometimes call it "hard fog"! I think that's very regional though, and not really correct. I suspect this term "hard fog" probably evolved as a comparison to "hard frost" (which locally means a frost that freezes plants all the way through, with a thick layer of ice on the outside, which will last throughout the day, while our more "normal" lighter frost would disappear before noon... a "hard fog" similarly will persist throughout the day instead of going away by noon. But honestly, I have no idea if that term is used in other places in English. It's just something I've heard people say here.

Naava wrote:It's also the reason why I decided I don't want to be a translator/interpreter. (After the two first periods in my first year at uni, we we're asked if we want to continue our studies in linguistics or translation module. I chose linguistics, but it was cool that I got to read one book about translation for the entrance exam and then take one (mandatory) translation course because now I don't have any regrets or what if-scenarios in my head. :mrgreen:) Translating is really difficult and I respect all translators/interpreters so much. Especially those who do simultaneous interpreting.

I am totally, 100% with you on this. I don't mind translating written work and I have done that sometimes. But I firmly believe that oral interpreting should be left to professionals. Most of the people I work with don't know any languages besides English and often don't realize how difficult it is to interpret on the spot. They also sometimes demand simultaneous interpretation because consecutive interpretation "takes too long" but I will absolutely refuse to do that; they can either find a different person to interpret, or stop talking and wait while I speak. (Besides that I try to get out of doing any kind of interpreting at all, but often they will just ask the nearest bilingual person to do it, so sometimes I do get roped into doing that. If I'm the only one there who can, I'm not going to say no!)

Naava wrote:Wiktionary says ilmiö was coined by Paavo Tikkanen in the 1850s.
(A bit offtopic but I absolutely love the neologisms in Finnish! There wasn't a uniform written language until the 19th-20th centuries, and no written language at all before the 16th century, so there was a lack of many terms and translations. Some people are famous for the words they created - some of these are still in use, while others sound absolutely hilarious nowadays. Did you know, for example, that Agricolatried to make us call lions noble deers? (Well we do have 'noble stones' (gemstone) and even English has noble gas, but it's still funny.) Or that he thought a proper name for 'graveyard' should be bone garden?
But I also like the words that became part of the language because nobody remembers that they were 100% made up by someone only a few hundred years ago. I mean, all words are made up by someone, sure, but we don't usually know the names or the dates when and who made them. My absolute favourite is sähkö, electricity, which isn't derived from any other word. Samuel Roos, who coined it, said that electricity reminded him of sähähtäminen, 'making a hissing noise', so there's some onomatopoeia - but it's not combined from other words like that creepy bone garden or a loan translation or simple add-some-suffixes-there-you-go.)

Estonian had a similar process around the same time. Some have become entirely legitimate and natural-sounding Estonian words and others never really caught on (like your noble-deer example). Perhaps later I will post some of them too. (Tingima and mure coming soon!) :D
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-08-25, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-25, 16:26

Naava wrote:Some new ideas:

(tingimata = necessarily, by all means; tingima = to condition, to determine)

This reminds me of
- tinkiä 1 haggle, haggle over the price, bargain [over the price] ; 2 reduce the price (the seller) 3 compromise, moderate, reduce, lower)
- its abessive tinkimättä (to the letter, rigidly, strictly, resolutely, unflinchingly)
(Examples: follow the instructions to the letter, strictly follow the instructions; perform one's duty unflinchingly)

Are these words related? They must be, they look so similar that it'd be a miracle if it was a coincidence. :hmm:

Yes, they are. Actually, "to haggle, to bargain" is the primary meaning of Estonian tingima too. I used to really struggle with remembering the meanings of these words when I first learned them and I think it was because the meanings of the words tingima, tingimata and tingimus seemed so different, even though the only difference between them was the suffix (infinitive suffix -ma, abessive suffix -ta and noun-forming suffix -mus).
They make a bit more sense once you learn the various meanings each word has, but initially I learned them as: tingima = to haggle over the price, tingimata = absolutely and tingimus = condition or state something is in. They were clearly variations of "the same word," but the connection between them eluded me and at first I couldn't even guess at the meaning of the *ting(i)- root that the suffixes were (theoretically) attached to.*
I do get the connection between the set of words now (tingimata necessarily, by all means, absolutely = "without bargaining, with no room to haggle, etc", which works with tinkimättä too even though its meaning isn't the same as tingimata) but at first I was constantly having to look them up in the dictionary each time I came across them because it just wouldn't stick.
The way that I finally learned to remember the meaning of these words was to equate *ting(i)- with "something that determines acceptable boundaries or limits", and although that isn't specifically the meaning of any of the individual words, it does work as sort of a "pseudo-root" that made all the derivatives finally make sense to me.
It turns out the reason the verb was not created from an actual noun form like *ting(i)- is that it comes from a Low German verb dingen to negotiate, to litigate, to act as a trustee, so it was initially borrowed directly as a verb.

(fi) tingata to stickle, to argue (dialect); to haggle, to bargain (colloquial) (per Wiktionary)
(et) tingima to bargain, to haggle; to condition, to cause/determine
(fi) tinkiä to bargain, to haggle; reduce the price; compromise, moderate, reduce, lower
(vot) tiŋkiä to bargain, to haggle, to trade
(vro) tinkõlõma to bargain, to haggle
(et) tinglema to bargain back and forth, to haggle repeatedly
(smi-sme) tiggedit to bargain back and forth, to haggle repeatedly
(smi-sme) tigget to bargain, to haggle, to reduce the price
(liv) dingõ to bargain, to haggle (ultimately from the same root but probably through (lv) diņģēt)

(et) tingiv conditional (tingiv kõneviis conditional mood, subjunctive mood in grammar)
(et) tingija bargainer, haggler
(vro) tinkõlõja bargainer, haggler; conditional (tinkõlõja kõnnõviiś conditional mood, subjunctive mood in grammar)

(et) tingimata necessarily, by all means, absolutely
(fi) tinkimättä to the letter, rigidly, strictly, resolutely, unflinchingly

(et) ting bargaining, haggling; a bargain (the result of bargaining) (not common, but found in Saagpakk's dictionary)*
(et) ting parsimonious, tightfisted (island dialects and Võrtsjärv dialects only)
(et) tingimisi conditionally
(et) tingimus condition, term, criterion; bargaining, haggling (elamistingimused living conditions)
(et) tingimusteta unconditional
(et) tingim condition (legal contexts only)
(et) tinglik conditional, stipulated

*Most dictionaries only list the English translation of ting as "nit" (as in the egg of a louse; Finnish saivare), but that comes from a different root and has a different genitive form (tingu nit vs. tingi bargaining).

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-25, 19:48

Livonian (liv) mur sorrow, grief; worry
Karelian (krl) mureh sorrow, grief; worry
Finnish (fi) murhe sorrow, grief; worry, trouble
Southern Ostrobothnian (fi) mure, mures care, concern, worry
murhe sorrow, grief; care, concern
Estonian (et) mure sorrow, grief; care, concern; worry, trouble; anxiety, distress
Võro (vro) murõq sorrow, grief; care, concern; worry, trouble; anxiety, distress
Votic (vot) murõ, murhõ sorrow, grief; care, concern, worry; anxiety, distress
Kihnu dialect (et) murõ sorrow, grief; care, concern; worry, trouble; anxiety, distress; strong feeling

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-31, 17:12

Finnish (fi) lintu bird
Karelian (krl) lintu bird
Votic (vot) lintu bird
Livvi-Karelian (olo) lindu bird
lindu bird
Estonian (et) lind bird
Livonian (liv) lind bird
Veps (vep) ľind bird
Ludic (lud) ľind bird
Ter Saami (smi-smt) лонньт bird
Kildin Saami (smi-smk) лоаннҍт grouse, capercaillie
Skolt Saami (smi-sms) lå'dd grouse, capercaillie
South Saami (smi-sma) ledtie grouse, ptarmigan
Lule Saami (smi-smj) lådde bird
Ume Saami (smi-smu) låďdee bird
Pite Saami (smi-smp) låttie bird
Inari Saami (smi-smn) lodde bird; flying animal
North Saami (smi-sme) loddi bird; flying insect
Northern Khanty (kca) ӆᴏнт goose
Southern Mansi (mns) лᴏнт goose
Northern Mansi (mns) лунт goose
Hungarian (hu) lúd goose
Meadow Mari (mhr) лудо duck
Hill Mari (mrj) лыды duck

Also related to:
Livonian (liv) lindõ to fly
Võro (vro) lindama to fly
Estonian (et) lendama to fly
Finnish (fi) lentää to fly
lentää to fly
Votic (vot) lentää to fly
Karelian (krl) lenteä to fly
Northern Saami (smi-sme) leandit to fly; to rush, to speed, to race
Inari Saami (smi-smn) lendiđ to drop, to fall

And if you happened to notice that Võro doesn't have a cognate meaning "bird" above (even though it has the root, since it does have a cognate for the verb "to fly"), here's why - it uses a different root for "bird": :mrgreen:
Võro (vro) tsirk bird
Tartu area dialects of Estonian (et-tar) sirk bird
Eastern coastal area dialects of Estonian (et-ran) sirk grasshopper
Ludic (lud) ťširk sparrow
Veps (vep) čirk bunting; small bird; tadpole
(fi) sirkka cricket
(vot) tširkka cricket, grasshopper
Karelian (krl) tširkka grasshopper; tadpole; swallow
serkka cricket, grasshopper
Ludic (lud) ťširkku grasshopper
Seto dialect of Võro (vro-set) tsirkun cricket
sirkkulain sparrow
Karelian (krl) tširkku sparrow, bunting, small bird
(fi) sirkku bunting
(vot) sirkku bird; siskin
Estonian (et) sirts groundhopper; tetrix (small insects related to grasshoppers)
Vastseliina dialect of Võro (vro) tsirts grasshopper
Estonian (et) -tirts (in compounds): rohutirts grasshopper, kõrbetirts locust

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-04, 0:15

So, I came across these pairs and thought they were interesting.

(et) väänama to distort; (vot) vääntää to translate
from Proto-Indo-European *wendʰ- "to wind, to turn", via Proto-Germanic *wenda-

(vot) tolkuta to understand; (et) tõlkima to translate
from Proto-Indo-European *telkʷ- "to talk", via Russian толк

I hadn't realized that Estonian tõlkima was a Russian loan, nor had it occurred to me that it was a cognate with English talk. Votic vääntää on the other hand presents a rather different view of what translation involves: a distortion or contortion rather than understanding. And it's a cognate with Ludic and Veps words (viättä, väta) meaning "to play a musical instrument." :mrgreen:

Expanding on the first one a bit:
Finnish (fi) vääntää to twist; to turn; to wrench
vääntää to twist; to turn; to turn around
Votic (vot) vääntää to twist; to turn; to break; to translate
Estonian (et) väänama to twist; to wring; contort; distort
Livvi Karelian (olo) viändiä to twist; to bend
Ludic (lud) viättä to play a musical instrument; to dance
Veps (vep) väta to play a musical instrument
Livonian (liv) vǟndõ to weave; to tie; to wrap

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-06, 3:12

(et) kask birch
(vep) kaśk assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(lud) kašk assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(krl) kaški assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(fi) kaski assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation; (dialect*) young birch, young deciduous forest
kaski assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(olo) kaski formerly cleared land with new birch trees growing in it; birch grove
(vot) kahtši birch

*ETY says that "young deciduous forest; young birch" (noor lehtmets; noor kask) are meanings of kaski in a Finnish dialect, but does not say which Finnish dialect(s) it is. Other than that, it seems Estonian and Votic are the only languages in which this word means "birch". All the other Finnic languages use a word related to Proto-Uralic *kojwa for "birch," and even Estonian (kõiv) and Votic (koivu) have synonyms for "birch" that come from *kojwa as well, but that's a list for another day!

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-08, 21:40

Linguaphile wrote:the other Finnic languages use a word related to Proto-Uralic *kojwa for "birch," and even Estonian (kõiv) and Votic (koivu) have synonyms for "birch" that come from *kojwa as well, but that's a list for another day!


(fi) koivu birch
(krl) koivu birch
(olo) koivu birch
(vot) koivu birch
(izh) koivu birch
(vep) koiv birch
(lud) koiv birch
(et) kõiv birch
(vro) kõiv birch
(liv) kõuvõ birch
(liv) kȭvaz birch
Kamassian (ru-kam) койӱ birch
Mator (ru-mat) куа birch
(mhr) куэ birch
(nio) күо birch
ӄя birch
Forest Enets (ru-for) ко birch
Tundra Nenets (yrk-tun) хо birch
(myv) килей birch
(mdf) келу birch
(mns) ха̄ль birch
(hu) hajó ship, nave
(hu) hajós sailor

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-28, 1:52

Ladybug, ladybird in Uralic languages

Loosely organized by meaning and then by sound.
Veps jumalanlehmeine, Karelian jumalanľehmäine, Votic jumalalehmä and eastern Estonian jumalalehm are presumably calques of Russian божья коровка.
The alder reference is supposedly due to the red color and the color of alder sap. (The sap even leaks out of small wounds on an alder tree in ladybug-sized drops, actually. Growing up we had alder trees and as a child I actually thought the sap was some kind of bug larva; I don't know if that's where the name comes from, as etymological sources only mention that it comes from the color of the sap, but it makes sense to me: alder sap, ladybugs.)
Also, in Udmurt, from what I understand ladybugs are believed to bring rain.


(fi) leppäkerttu ("alder Gertrude" leppä = alder + kerttu = a form of the name Gertrude)
(krl) leppäkerttu ("alder Gertrude" leppä alder + kerttu a form of the name Gertrude)
(fi) leppäpirkko ("alder Bridget" leppä = alder + pirkko = a form of the name Bridget)
(krl) leppäpirkko ("alder Bridget" leppä alder + pirkko a form of the name Bridget)
(krl) pistepirkko ("pointed [spotted] Bridget" piste point + pirkko a form of the name Bridget)
(et) lepatriinu ("alder Catherine" lepa = alder + triinu = a form of the name Catherine)
(hu) katicabogár ("Catherine's bug" katica = a form of the name Catherine + bogár = bug)
(vot) leppäitikka ("alder bug" leppä alder + itikka bug)
(myv) липалей ("alder river" ? липа > лепе :?: = alder + лей = river :?: )
(vot) leppälintu ("alder bird" leppä alder + lintu bird)
(vot) leppätiiro ("alder bat" leppä alder + tiiro bat)
(izh) tiiroi (apparently also the name of the common tern)
(mhr) трай (etymology :?: )
(liv) mǭmalinki (mǭma = :?: + linki = bird)
(vot) jumalalintu ("God's bird" jumala God’s + lintu bird)
(kv-kpv) ен гаг ("God's insect" ен = God’s + гаг = insect)
(kv-kpv) ен бобö ("God's beetle" ен = God’s + бобö = beetle)
Iisaku dialect of Estonian (et-iis) jumalaämblik ("God's spider" jumala = God’s + ämblik = spider)
Hiiumaa dialect of Estonian (et-hiiu) ämbrene (etymologically :?: related to ämbrik/ämblik = spider)
Hiiumaa dialect of Estonian (et-hiiu) lamber (etymologically :?: related to ämbrik/ämblik = spider)
Laiuse dialect of Estonian (et-iis) jumalalehm ("God's cow" jumala = God’s + lehm = cow)
(vep) jumalanlehmeine ("God's cow" jumalan God’s + lehmeine cow)
(krl) jumalanľehmäine ("God's cow" jumalan God’s + ľehmäine cow)
(vot) jumalalehmä ("God's cow" jumala God’s + lehmä cow)
Mulgi dialect of Estonian (et-mul) kirjätlehm ("colored cow" kirjät = colored + lehm = cow)
(vro) käolehm ("cuckoo cow" käo = cuckoo + lehm = cow)
(vro) käokiräs ("cuckoo colored" käo = cuckoo + kiräs = colored)
(myv) боярбука ("master bull" бояр = master + бука = bull, ox)
(myv) торобука (торо = :?: + бука = bull, ox)
(vep) merenemä ("sea mother" meren = sea + emä = mother)
(udm) шундымумы ("sun mother" шунды = sun + мумы = mother)
(udm) ӵужанайпапа ("grandmother insect" ӵужанай = grandmother + папа insect)
(udm) зорпапа ("rain insect" зор = rain + папа insect)
(udm) зоркакы ("rain beetle" зор = rain + какы beetle)
(udm) зоркиби ("rain beetle" зор = rain + киби beetle)
(smi-smj) tsåhppegåmmbå ("spot beetle" tsåhppe = spot + gåmmbå = beetle?)
(sme-smi) dielkogobbá ("spot beetle" dielko = spot + gobbá = beetle)
(smi-smn) tiälkkutivre ("spot bug" tiälkku = spot + tivre = bug)
(smi-sms) teâlkkteuʹrr ("spot bug" teâlkk = spotted + teuʹrr bug)

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-11-09, 5:29

(fi) parsi animal stall; set of drying poles** :?: (Wikipedia: "for hanging goods for storage", Suomisanakirja: "for drying sheaves")
(vot) parsi set of drying poles**
(et) pars set of drying poles**
(izh) pars set of drying poles**
(liv) parž set of drying poles**
(lud) parž beam
(vep) parz' beam
(olo) parzi beam
Baltic German (de) Parsen long piece of wood across a threshing room*
Estonian Swedish - Eestirootsi (sv) pars, pašš thin piece of wood on a barnhouse beam*
(mns) па̄рт board
(kca) пертъ board
(mhr) пырдыж wall
(kv-koi) берд wall
(udm) борд, борддор wall

The origin of this term is not known. It's possible that the words are etymologically related to any of the following: Proto-Germanic *burdą "board" and Proto-Indo-European *bʰerdʰ "to cut" (cf. English board), Latin paries "wall" (cf. Spanish pared), Proto-Germanic *sparrô "beam, log", or developed in Uralic languages independently. It's also possible that the first ten words listed above (Finnic and Finnic loans) are not etymologically related to the Ugric, Volgaic or Permic languages (the last five listed above). The relationship between the two sets of words is just one theory of several (see ETY).

* Parsen and pašš are loanwords from Estonian into Estonian Swedish (eestirootsi) and Baltic German (baltisaksa) respectively - not vice versa as is more often the case - and are not used in standard Swedish or German.

** the more specific definition for "set of drying poles" as used in Estonia is: loose horizontal beams of coarse timber laid across rafter beams in a farmhouse or barn, to use for drying grain or other items, such as where the woman is standing with the hay at the top of the photo here:
Image
Image
and the nine beams at the top here:
Image

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-12-16, 5:15

The word for "spider" is an interesting one because the related words have many sound changes and, in most languages, have several variants within a single language:

standard written Finnish (fi) hämähäkki spider
Livvi Karelian (olo) hämähäkki spider
Ludic (lud) hämähäkki spider
Western Finnish (fi) hämmähäkki spider
Ingrian (izh) hämähääkki spider
Westrobothnian Finnish (fi-wbo) hämhääkki spider
Ylitornio Finnish (fi) hämhääki spider
southwestern Finnish (fi) hämhäkki spider
Somero and Marttila Finnish (fi) hämmäkki spider
North Karelian (krl-vie) hämehikki spider
South Karelian (krl-ete) hämähikkö spider
Veps (vep) hämähouk spider
Jõgõperä Votic (vot-jog) hämöläinen spider
Luuditsa Votic (vot-luu) hämöläin spider
Ingrian (izh) hämöläin spider
Ingrian (izh) hämöi spider
colloquial Finnish (fi-col) hämis
colloquial Finnish (fi-col) hämyri
Vastseliina Võro (vro-vas) härm spider
Setu Võro (vro-set) härmävitäi spider
Urvaste Võro (vro-urv) härmläne spider
Rakvere Estonian (et-rak) hämeläne spider
Viru Nigula Estonian (et-vni) ämalane spider
Lüganuse Estonian (et-lug) ämäräne spider
Vaivara Estonian (et-vai) ämälik spider
Iisaku Estonian (et-iis) ämelik spider
standard Estonian (et) ämblik spider
Kuusalu Estonian (et-kuu) ämmelgas spider
Võnnu Estonian (et-von) ärbläne spider
Põlva Võro (vro-plv) ärmnik spider
Noarootsi Estonian (et-noa) ämrikas spider
standard Livonian (liv) emriki spider
Salatsi Livonian (liv-sal) emeľki spider
Itšäpäivä Votic (vot-its) mämmälikko spider
Kõrvõttula Votic (vot-kor) mämmelikko spider

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-12-16, 9:38

Linguaphile wrote:The word for "spider" is an interesting one because the related words have many sound changes and, in most languages, have several variants within a single language:

Nice list!

There's also
(fi) hämppäri
(fi) hämppy

(These are similar to hämis and hämyri: you take the first phonemes of a word and add a suffix to shorten it. Cf. hampurilainen > hamppari ('hamburger'), ampiainen > amppari ('wasp'); samanlainen (adj. 'similar, alike') > samis (n. 'lookalike, someone who is similar, alike'; usually refers to clothing).)

hämöläinen spider
hämöläin spider
hämöläin spider
hämeläne spider

People from Tavastia (Häme) are called hämäläinen in Finnish. Hmmmmmmm.... :hmm:

FYI: Häme and Sápmi come from the same word, *šämä! :D

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby h34 » 2019-12-16, 17:23

Adding Moksha, Erzya, Hill Mari, Meadow Mari, Udmurt and Komi-Zyrian. I wonder if there there are etymological links with the Finnic languages, especially looking at the Mari words:

(mdf) унжа, инжа / unža, inža
(myv) шанжав / šanžav

(mrj) äнгӹремшӹ / ängyremšy
(mhr) эҥыремыш / engõremõš

(udm) чонари / čonari
(kv-kpv) черань / čeran'

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-12-17, 2:01

Thanks to both of you! The sources I've found indicate that the Finnic words are related, but not the words from other branches of Uralic. So it seems that ӓнгӹремшӹ and эҥыремыш are not generally thought to be related to the Finnic words. They are also rather different from the Finnic ones, but you never know... if hämähäkki and ämblik are known to be related, why not also ӓнгӹремшӹ?
It seems that ä is almost the only common element for some of the Finnic words... makes sense, since that's what I sometimes say when I see one, but I say it with a longer vowel: ääää! ǟǟ! :mrgreen:

Adding also: hämähäkkö (Ludic and Livvi Karelian), hämähäik (Ludic), hämähäkk (Ludic), hömöläin (Votic), hämäšaag (Veps), hämii (Veps), häpii (Veps), ēbrikš (Livonian), имиз̌яй (Nganasan), ниби (Enets), нибиця (Nenets), and all of the Saami languages (*heavnē).

Finnic:
standard written Finnish (fi) hämähäkki spider
Livvi Karelian (olo) hämähäkki spider
Ludic (lud) hämähäkki spider
Western Finnish (fi) hämmähäkki spider
Ingrian (izh) hämähääkki spider
Westrobothnian Finnish (fi-wbo) hämhääkki spider
Ylitornio Finnish (fi) hämhääki spider
southwestern Finnish (fi) hämhäkki spider
Somero and Marttila Finnish (fi) hämmäkki spider
North Karelian (krl-vie) hämehikki spider
Livvi Karelian (olo) hämähäkkö spider
Koikara Ludic (lud) hämähäkkö spider
South Karelian (krl-ete) hämähikkö spider
Gallezero Ludic (lud) hämähäkk spider
Mikhailovskoe Ludic (lud) hämähäik spider
Veps (vep) hämähouk spider
Sidorovo Veps (vep) hämäšaag spider
Jõgõperä Votic (vot-jog) hämöläinen spider
Liivtšülä Votic (vot-lii) hömöläin spider
Luuditsa Votic (vot-luu) hämöläin spider
Ingrian (izh) hämöläin spider
Ingrian (izh) hämöi spider
Šoutjärv Veps (vep) hämii spider
colloquial Finnish (fi-col) hämis spider
Kaskez Veps (vep) häpii spider
colloquial Finnish (fi) hämppäri spider
colloquial Finnish (fi) hämppy spider
colloquial Finnish (fi-col) hämyri spider
Vastseliina Võro (vro-vas) härm spider
Setu Võro (vro-set) härmävitäi spider
Urvaste Võro (vro-urv) härmläne spider
Rakvere Estonian (et-rak) hämeläne spider
Viru Nigula Estonian (et-vni) ämalane spider
Lüganuse Estonian (et-lug) ämäräne spider
Vaivara Estonian (et-vai) ämälik spider
Iisaku Estonian (et-iis) ämelik spider
standard Estonian (et) ämblik spider
Kuusalu Estonian (et-kuu) ämmelgas spider
Võnnu Estonian (et-von) ärbläne spider
Põlva Võro (vro-plv) ärmnik spider
Noarootsi Estonian (et-noa) ämrikas spider
standard Livonian (liv) ēbrikš spider
standard Livonian (liv) emriki spider
Salatsi Livonian (liv-sal) emeľki spider
Itšäpäivä Votic (vot-its) mämmälikko spider
Kõrvõttula Votic (vot-kor) mämmelikko spider

Mari:
(mrj) ӓнгӹремшӹ ängyremšy spider
(mhr) эҥыремыш engõremõš spider

Saami:
North (smi-sme) heavdni spider
Pite (smi-smp) hävdne spider
Pite (smi-smp) häffne spider
Ume (smi-smu) fäyhnee spider
Lule (smi-smj) hievnne spider
South (smi-sma) hievnie spider
Inari (smi-smn) evni spider
Ter (smi-smt) jeavnaj spider
Akkala (smi) euniš spider
Skolt (smi-sms) eeunaž spider
Kildin (smi-smk) о̄а̄з ōāz spider

Other Uralic:
(mdf) унжа, инжа unža, inža spider
Nganasan (nio) имиз̌яй imižjai spider
(myv) шанжав šanžav spider
(udm) чонари čonari spider
(kv-kpv) черань čeran' spider
Enets (nio) ниби nibi spider
Tundra Nenets (yrk) нибиця nibitsja spider
Tundra Nenets (yrk) лярцо ljartso spider
(hu) pók (Slavic borrowing) spider

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-12-20, 5:02

(vot) suisu smoke
(et) suits smoke; a household; a cigarette
(fi) suitsu bonfire smoke meant to protect cattle from mites; archaic/dialect meaning: smoke
(fi) suitsuke incense
(krl) šuittša fog
The meaning of Proto-Finnic *suiccu was "smoke," but only Votic, Estonian, and apparently some dialect(s) of Finnish still use it that way. In other languages its meaning has shifted and/or narrowed to a more specific type of smoke.
This particular word was also discussed in this thread about two years ago.

For the meaning of "smoke" (and occassionally "fog") most related languages use a word derived from *savu rather than from *suiccu:
(vro) savv smoke
(izh) savvu smoke
(izh-soi) šavvu smoke
(krl) savu smoke
(vep) savu smoke
(lud) savu smoke
(vro) sau smoke
(liv) sov smoke
(smi-sms) suõvv smoke
(smi-smn) suovâ smoke
(smi-sme) suovva smoke
(smi-smj) suovva smoke
(smi-smp) suovva smoke
(smi-smu) suavva smoke
(smi-sma) suove smoke
(smi-sma) soeve smoke
(smi-smt) sïvv smoke
(smi-smk) сӯвв smoke
(myv) сув fog
(kca) шув fog

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-01-11, 4:49

In the set below from Proto-Finnic *arki I am surprised to discover that Estonian (with Võro) seems to be alone in dropping the second consonant to make äri and nearly alone in changing the vowel from a to ä. For some reason I thought this would be more widespread among neighboring languages. I cannot say why I thought it would be that way, but I did! (Estonian has also maintained the argi variant, but only in the adjective form argine and in compounds, of which many more than what is listed here are possible: argielu "everyday life," argimure "worldly worry", argirõivas "casual clothing", argikeel "colloquial language", argivajadused "daily needs", argimunder "undress uniform", argimõistus "common sense", argirutiin "daily routine," argiaskeldus "daily bustle," argiese "everyday commodity" and so on.)

(fi) arki ordinary, mundane or non-special day; (in adverbs) weekday, working day
Rajo Votic (vot) arki non-fasting day; food that is forbidden during fasting days
Luuditsa Votic (vot) artši non-fasting day; food that is forbidden during fasting days
(izh) argi non-fasting day; workday, weekday
(olo) argi non-fasting day; day without festivities
(lud) aŕg non-fasting day; food that is forbidden during fasting days
(vep) aŕg non-fasting day; food that is forbidden during fasting days
(et) äri business

(fi) arkinen everyday, ordinary, workday
(et) argine everyday, ordinary, without festivities

(et) argipäev workday, business day, weekday; everyday
(fi) arkipäivä workday, business day, weekday
Luuditsa Votic (vot) artšipäivä weekday; non-fasting day
Liivtšülä Votic (vot) ärtšipäivä weekday; non-fasting day
Mati Votic (vot) ärtšipäiväkko weekday
(et) äripäev business day
(vro) äripäiv workday, business day, weekday; everyday

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-17, 16:15

It totally amuses me that (vep) huba bad and (et) huba- comfy are actual cognates. (Though to be fair, I can see how they got from one to the other.)

(vep) huba bad
(izh) huba weak, shabby
(lud) huba small
(olo) huba small, tight
(et) hubane comfy, snug

(vot) halva cheap
(izh) halva bad
(et) halb bad
(fi) halpa cheap
(vot) alpa bad
Salatsi (liv) alu bad

(fi) huono bad, poor
(krl) huono bad
(olo) huono bad, shabby
(lud) huono bad, shabby
(izh) hoono bad
(vot) hoono bad, evil
(et) hoon weak, skinny, wretched

(vot) paha bad, evil
(izh) paha bad, evil, shabby, wretched
(et) paha bad, evil, unpleasant
(fi) paha bad, evil, unpleasant
(olo) paha bad, weak, sick, unpleasant
(vep) paha bad, weak, evil, wicked

(vep) odav cheap
(et) odav cheap
(vot) ootava cheap
(izh) hootava cheap
Southeastern (fi) huotava cheap, simple
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2020-02-17, 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-17, 16:53

(smi-sme) goaŧŧu womb
(smi-smj) skoahto womb, uterus
(fi) kohtu womb, uterus
(olo) kohtu pregnancy, large stomach
(lud) kohtuińe pregnant, heavy
(vep) koht stomach
(et) kõht stomach
(vro) kõtt stomach
(udm) кӧт stomach
(udm) кӧто pregnant
(kv-koi) кӧта pregnant [of cows only]
(vot) kõhuz waist

(vot) kõhta place, location; right away, soon
(fi) kohta place, location; soon
(et) koht place, location
(lud) koht place, location
(vep) koht place, location
(izh) kohta place, location
(et) kohta about
(fi) kohti towards
(olo) kohtu place, location
(et) kohtu court (nom. kohus)
(vro) kohtu court (nom. kohus)
(fi) kohtuus fairness, moderation
(vro) kotus place, location
(liv) kūoḑ court
(liv) kūoḑi straight, direct
(et) kohe right away, at once
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2020-02-17, 19:00, edited 2 times in total.


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