Cognates and semantic shifts

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2020-02-17, 17:33

Linguaphile wrote:Southwestern (fi) huotava cheap, simple

Kotus says this is used in the Southeastern dialects, not Southwestern. :hmm: [map from Kotus]

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kohta place, location, right away

kohta means 'soon', not 'right away'.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-17, 17:51

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Southwestern (fi) huotava cheap, simple

Kotus says this is used in the Southeastern dialects, not Southwestern. :hmm: [map from Kotus]

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) kohta place, location, right away

kohta means 'soon', not 'right away'.


Kiitos!

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2020-02-17, 18:34

Linguaphile wrote:Kiitos!

Np! :)

I like the lists btw! I had never thought kohtuus and kohta would share the same root, although it's quite obvious if you think about it. :D I wonder if kohti ('towards') belongs to this group, too?

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-17, 19:09

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Kiitos!

Np! :)

I like the lists btw! I had never thought kohtuus and kohta would share the same root, although it's quite obvious if you think about it. :D I wonder if kohti ('towards') belongs to this group, too?


Yes of course; I hadn't even thought about the postpositions. They are derived directly from the nouns.
Wiktionary says the etymology of (fi) kohti "towards" is "from the lative singular kohta +‎ -i."
And there is also (et) kohta "about", which is the partitive and illative form of koht.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2020-02-17, 20:02

Linguaphile wrote:Yes of course; I hadn't even thought about the postpositions. They are derived directly from the nouns.
Wiktionary says the etymology of (fi) kohti "towards" is "from the lative singular kohta +‎ -i."
And there is also (et) kohta "about", which is the partitive and illative form of koht.

How did it end up being kohti and not *kohtoi? :hmm: (Usually A+I=O, eg. jalka > jalkoja or Estonian jalg > jalgu)

Finnish has also kohtaan:
- Olit töykeä häntä kohtaan. - You were rude to him.
- Mira ei voinut olla tuntematta sääliä Sakua kohtaan. - Mira couldn't help but feel pity for Saku.
- Esimieheni käyttäytyy huonosti minua kohtaan. - My boss is behaving badly towards me.
(Directly copy pasted from Wiktionary.)

And the verb kohdata, 'to meet'!

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-21, 17:37

Various words meaning "speak", and what their cognates mean in related languages:

(fi) puhua to speak, to blow (of wind)
(olo) puhuo to blow, to cast a spell, to speak
(lud) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vep) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vot) puhua to blow, to snort
(izh) puhhuua to blow, to breathe
(fi) puhaltaa to blow (can refer to humans or wind)
(liv) pūgõ to blow
(fi) puhkua to huff, puff
(vro) puhkma to blow
(et) puhuma to blow
(believed to be onomatopoeic)

(izh) läätä to speak
(vot) läätä to speak, to talk (Kukkuzi dialect)
(vot) lägätä to speak Izhorian (Rajo dialect); to babble (Jõgõperä dialect)
(izh) lägäellä to speak
(vot) läkisä to chatter, to prattle
(fi) läkistä to make a lot of noise, roar :?: ('käratseda, lärmata' according to ETY)
(et) läkastama to have a coughing fit, to choke
(liv) läkārtõ to have a coughing fit, to choke
(olo) läkehtüö to choke, suffocate, gasp for breath
(vep) ľäkästuda to suffocate, to gasp for breath
(vot) lätšähtüä to suffocate, to gasp for breath
(fi) läkähtyä to suffocate, to swelter
(et) läginemä to start to burn and get larger (of fire); to grow angrier (southeast dialect)
(vro) lügünemmä to start to burn and get larger (of fire); to grow angrier
(et) läitma to gleam, shine, light up, kindle
(believed to be onomatopoeic)

(fi) haastaa to dare, defy, challenge, summon; (Eastern dialects) to speak
(krl) hoastoa to speak, talk, smolder, glow
(fi) huoata to sigh, to blow
(izh) hooada to blow
(fi) huokua to exhale (of inanimate objects releasing things), to emanate
(izh) hookua to breath
(olo) huogavuo to breath
(lud) huogauzuda to blow
(vot) oogata to blow, to catch one's breath
(believed to be onomatopoeic; uncertain whether haastaa and hoastoa are etymologically related to the others)

(vro) kõnõlõma to speak
(et) kõnelema to talk, to converse, to speak about
(fi) koneistaa to mechanize, to machine
(krl) konehtie to conjure
(from Proto-Finnic koneh "magic")

(et) rääkima to speak
(izh) rääkkiä to screech, to crake
(et) rääkuma, rääksuma to screech, to crake
(fi) rääkyä to yell, to howl, to screech
(fi) rääkkyä to screech, to crake
(lud) riägüdä to shout
(krl) reäküö to shout, to roar, to screech
(liv) räukõ to shout, cry loudly
(believed to be onomatopoeic; Estonian rääkima probably influenced by Germanic spreken)

(vot) pajattaa to speak, to talk, to recite by heart; to speak Votic
(fi) pajattaa to patter, jabber
(et) pajatama to tell, talk, narrate, speak
(olo) pajattua to sing, to hold a funeral service, to cry
(lud) pajattada to sing spiritual songs
(vep) pajatada to sing
(from Russian: баять "to speak, to tell")
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2020-04-21, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2020-04-21, 18:04

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) puhua to speak, to blow (of wind)
(olo) puhuo to blow, to cast a spell, to speak
(lud) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vep) puhuda to blow, to cast a spell
(vot) puhua to blow, to snort
(izh) puhhuua to blow, to breathe
(liv) pūgõ to blow
(fi) puhkua to huff, puff
(vro) puhkma to blow
(et) puhuma to blow
(believed to be onomatopoeic)

You could also add FI: puhaltaa - to blow (can refer to humans or wind)

(fi) läkistä to make a lot of noise, roar :?: ('käratseda, lärmata' according to ETY)

I've never hear this word nor could I find it on Google. :hmm: I wonder what ETY's source is...
There is a verb lätistä - to splash, to splash repeatedly (standard Finnish); to chatter (Spoken Finnish). I doubt it's related to any of your words though.

(fi) haastaa to dare, defy, challenge, summon; (dialect) to speak
(krl) hoastoa to speak, talk, smolder, glow

FYI: haastaa is used in the Eastern dialects of Finnish, which share a common ancestor with Karelian but not with the Western dialects. :)

(fi) huokua to exhale, to emanate

Just a NB: 'exhale' here refers to inanimate things releasing stuff, not to breathing.

(from Proto-Finnic koneh "magic")

Wow, I didn't know that! :o

(et) rääkima to speak
(izh) rääkkiä to screech, to crake
(et) rääkuma, rääksuma to screech, to crake
(fi) rääkyä to yell, to howl, to screech
(fi) rääkkyä to screech, to crake
(lud) riägüdä to shout
(krl) reäküö to shout, to roar, to screech
(liv) räukõ to shout, cry loudly

I really like how all the other languages say it means "to screech" or "to shout" and then Estonian is like "yup, that's how we talk". :lol:

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-21, 22:22

Thanks!
Here's one more:

(krl) paista to speak, to converse
(olo) paišta to speak, to converse; to condemn, to blame
(lud) pagišta to speak, to converse
(vep) pagišta to speak, to converse

(fi) pakista to chat
(vot) pakisa to crack, to crackle
(et) pagisema to crack, to creak, to groan (i.e. a ship)
(liv) pagat to speak (Salatsi dialect)
(smi-smk) ругъедтэ (pággeδ) to quarrel, to bicker

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) läkistä to make a lot of noise, roar :?: ('käratseda, lärmata' according to ETY)

I've never hear this word nor could I find it on Google. :hmm: I wonder what ETY's source is...

I'd like to know too! ETY was the only source I could find for it. :hmm: They do get stuff wrong sometimes and I just blithely post them here. :twisted:

Naava wrote:
(et) rääkima to speak
(izh) rääkkiä to screech, to crake
(et) rääkuma, rääksuma to screech, to crake
(fi) rääkyä to yell, to howl, to screech
(fi) rääkkyä to screech, to crake
(lud) riägüdä to shout
(krl) reäküö to shout, to roar, to screech
(liv) räukõ to shout, cry loudly

I really like how all the other languages say it means "to screech" or "to shout" and then Estonian is like "yup, that's how we talk". :lol:

Yes, but don't forget, in Estonian the same word is used when talking about how everyone else speaks, too. You know, "Naava räägib soome keelt" and things like that. :mrgreen:
That's why I found it so interesting that Votic has a special verb (lägätä) that means "to speak Izhorian". Wouldn't be be funny if all the languages did that with each other, in other words, if Estonians were to say rääkima to mean "to speak Estonian" but then use the verb puhuma to mean "to speak Finnish" ("Naava puhub soome keelt" - and I think I have actually seen that sort of thing sometimes, but perhaps just as a joke or ironic way of saying it) and so on, while Finnish were to use rääkyä for "to speak Estonian," läkistä for "to speak Izhorian", etc. So that if a person spoke all of those languages then they'd say that they know how to "shout Estonian, blow Finnish, cough out Ingrian and conjure up Võro".
Oh wow that could be fun.
:whistle:

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-07-15, 23:26

(vro) rummal foolish, dumb
(et) rumal foolish, dumb
Salatsi (liv-sal) rumal foolish, silly
(liv) rumāli dirty
(vot) rumala coarse, raw
(vot) ruma coarse, ragged, raw
(fi) ruma ugly, unpleasant, vulgar
(izh) ruma ugly, shoddy, greedy
(lud) ruma greedy, voracious
(vep) ruma voracious, ravenous
(olo) ruma voracious, hardworking, durable

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-07-20, 19:10

(vep) tark smart, talented, decent
(vro) tark sober, clever, wise, intelligent; benevolent witch, sorcerer
(et) tark wise, intelligent, sharp-witted, spiritually gifted; benevolent witch, healer
(vot) tarkka wise, intelligent, knowing, skillful; witch, healer, sorcerer
(izh) tarkka wise, intelligent, alert, attentive to detail, frugal
(olo) tarku alert, possessing sharp senses, precise, thorough, careful, frugal
(fi) tarkka accurate, exact, precise, punctual
(lud) tark miserly, frugal

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-07-26, 16:45

(et) maimik one-year-old to three-year-old child
(et) maim baby fish; small child
(lud) maim small fish; bait
(vep) maim small dried fish
(olo) maimu small dried fish
(vot) maima salmon

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-07-28, 15:30

(et) seen mushroom; fungus
(izh) seen mushroom; fungus
(liv) sēņ mushroom; fungus
(lv) sēne mushroom; fungus
(vep) sen' mushroom; fungus
(vro) siin' mushroom; fungus
(vot) siini mushroom; fungus
(lud) šień mushroom; gilled fungus
(fi) sieni mushroom; fungus; sponge
(krl) sieni mushroom; fungus
(olo) sieni mushroom; fungus
(smi-sms) čäänn bracket fungus
(smi-smk) ча̄нн bracket fungus
(smi-smn) čááná bracket fungus
(smi-sme) čátná bracket fungus
(smi-smp) tjádná bracket fungus
(smi-smj) tjádná bracket fungus
(smi-smu) tjádná bracket fungus
(kca) сан bracket fungus
(mhr) шен tinder, bracket fungus
(mns) sēniγ tinder, bracket fungus
(udm) śeńki tinder; bracket fungus
(hu) szén coal

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-08-03, 14:59

(fi) vahva strong, powerful, able-bodied
(izh) vahva strong, healthy, whole
(vep) vahv strong, firm, powerful
(krl) vahva strong, certain, great
(et) vahva brave, fearless; good

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-07-21, 4:15

(et) sirge straight
(vro) sirgõ straight
(fi) sirkeä lively, brisk
(vot) sirkõa clear, transparent, bright, long, straight
(izh) sirkiä clear
(izh) siredä to clarify, to explain
(fi) sirota to scatter
(myv) срадомс to spread out straight, to scatter
(myv) сэрь height, level, growth
(et) sire slender, graceful, willowy
(fi) siro slender, graceful, willowy

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Virankannos » 2021-07-21, 21:45

Naava wrote:How did it end up being kohti and not *kohtoi? :hmm: (Usually A+I=O, eg. jalka > jalkoja or Estonian jalg > jalgu)
Generally, labial vowels in the initial syllable in Finnish prevent the change a > o before an i suffix in the second syllable; it appears to be a sort of dissimilatory process. So that's why e.g. kohta : koht-i-a and muna : mun-i-a and not *kohtoja or *munoja.

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-08-04, 16:04

(et) surm death
(vro) surm death
(vot) surm death
(vep) surm death
(lud) surm death
(fi) surma death
(izh) surma death
(krl) surma death
(olo) surmu death
(kv-kpv) сурымъ (surõm) death
(kv-koi) сурым (surõm) death
(kca) сорәм (sŏrǝm) death
(smi-smk) соаррьм (soarr'm) death, doom
(smi-smt) sorrʹme accidental death, violent death
(smi-sme) sorbmi accidental death; mortal danger; place where one can have an accident
(smi-smj) sårmme accidental death; place where one can have an accident
(smi-sms) såʹrmm violent death

(et) surra to die
(fi) surra to mourn, to grieve
(izh) surra to mourn, to grieve
(krl) surra to worry
(smi-smj) surrat to be worried, to feel bad due to lack of sleep
(vep) surduda to be tired
(smi-smn) suurrađ to be sad
(smi-sma) surmiđ to kill, to murder
(smi-smj) sårmmit to kill, to murder
(smi-sme) sorbmit to kill, to murder

Proto-Samic *sormē death
Proto-Finnic *surdak to die, *surma death
Proto-Finno-Ugric *śure to die
Proto-Uralic śure to die

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-08-04, 22:11

(et) kalm grave, burial mound
(vro) kalm grave, burial mound
(lud) kalm grave, burial mound
(et) kalme burial mound
(fi) kalma death
(mdf) калма (kalma) grave
(liv) kālma grave, burial mound, cemetery
(izh) kalmad cemetery (plural of kalma)
(olo) kalmu grave, burial mound, cemetery
(myv) калмо (kalmo) grave
(vot) kalmo grave, burial mound
(fi) kalmo corpse, cadaver
(vep) kaum grave, burial mound, cemetery
(et) kalmistu cemetery
(yrk) хальмер (hal'mer) grave

(myv) калмамс (kalmams) to bury
(mdf) калмамс (kalmams) to bury

(mns) хо̄луӈкве (hoolungkwe) to die
(fi) kuolla to die
(krl) kuolla to die
(lud) kuolda to die
(vep) kolda to die, to become extinct
(vro) kooldaq to die
(vot) koolla to die
(sv) kola to die
(mhr) колаш (kolaš) to die
(hu) hal to die
(yrk) ха (ha) to die
(myv) куломс (kuloms) to die
(mdf) куломс (kuloms) to die
(udm) кулыны (kulõnõ) to die
(kv-kpv) кулны (kulnõ) to die
(kv-koi) кувны (kuvnõ) to die

(liv) kūolõm death
(fi) kuolema death
(krl) kuolema death
(izh) koolema death
(vot) koolõma death

(smi-smp) gållot to feel cold
(smi-smu) gålloot to freeze, to feel cold
(smi-smj) goallot to freeze, to feel cold
(smi-sme) goallut to freeze, to feel cold

Proto-Finnic: *kalma grave, death, *kooldak to die, *koolema death
Proto-Saami *koalōtēk to freeze
Proto-Uralic *kale to die

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-08-05, 5:14

(et) külm cold
(vep) küľm frozen, very cold
(lud) küľm frozen
(fi) kylmä cold
(krl) kylmä cold
(izh) kylmä cold
(vot) tšülmä cold
(olo) küľmü frozen, very cold
(liv) kīlma cold
(mhr) кылме (kõlme) frozen
(myv) кельме (kel'me) cold
(mdf) кельме (kel'me) cold, frosty
(smi-sme) galmmas cold, frozen, icy
(smi-smu) galmas cold
(kv-koi) кын (kõn) frozen
(kv-kpv) кын (kõn) frozen, inflexible, unripe
(udm) кын (kõn) frozen land

(smi-smu) galbmeet to freeze to death
(smi-smp) galbmet to freeze, to feel cold
(smi-sme) galbmit to freeze, to ice over
(smi-sms) kâʹlmmed to freeze, to be cold
(smi-smk) калльмэ (kall'me) to freeze
(smi-sma) gelmedh to feel cold

Proto-Saami *këlmētēk to be cold
Proto-Finnic *külmä cold
Proto-Finno-Permic *külmä cold

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2021-08-05, 9:10

Linguaphile wrote:(fi) surma death

Death, but also especially a violent death.

(fi) surra to mourn, to grieve

Also to be sad, to worry (e.g. in the phrase "älä sure", which is something like "don't be sad" or "do not worry").

A fun fact: this verb changed its meaning from "to die" to "to be sad" because of a similar sounding noun surku (pity, sadness, sorrow - it is also related to the English sorrow).

Linguaphile wrote:(et) kalmistu cemetery

(fi) kalmisto cemetery

Linguaphile wrote:(smi-smu) galbmeet to freeze to death
(smi-smp) galbmet to freeze, to feel cold
(smi-sme) galbmit to freeze, to ice over
(smi-sms) kâʹlmmed to freeze, to be cold
(smi-smk) калльмэ (kall'me) to freeze
(smi-sma) gelmedh to feel cold

There's also (fi) kylmettyä to get cold (in the sense "I'm freezing"), to catch a cold
kylmätä to freeze, to chill (especially in a figurative sense: bad news or thinking about something nasty can make you feel cold; "it horrifies me so much I feel cold in my soul")
kylmätä (slang) to kill

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Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-08-07, 17:08

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(fi) surma death

Death, but also especially a violent death.

(fi) surra to mourn, to grieve

Also to be sad, to worry (e.g. in the phrase "älä sure", which is something like "don't be sad" or "do not worry").

A fun fact: this verb changed its meaning from "to die" to "to be sad" because of a similar sounding noun surku (pity, sadness, sorrow - it is also related to the English sorrow).

Linguaphile wrote:(et) kalmistu cemetery

(fi) kalmisto cemetery

Linguaphile wrote:(smi-smu) galbmeet to freeze to death
(smi-smp) galbmet to freeze, to feel cold
(smi-sme) galbmit to freeze, to ice over
(smi-sms) kâʹlmmed to freeze, to be cold
(smi-smk) калльмэ (kall'me) to freeze
(smi-sma) gelmedh to feel cold

There's also (fi) kylmettyä to get cold (in the sense "I'm freezing"), to catch a cold
kylmätä to freeze, to chill (especially in a figurative sense: bad news or thinking about something nasty can make you feel cold; "it horrifies me so much I feel cold in my soul")
kylmätä (slang) to kill

Kiitos paljon!


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