Cognates and semantic shifts

h34
Posts: 938
Joined: 2014-12-16, 20:15
Gender: male

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby h34 » 2019-08-24, 18:27

Linguaphile wrote:Thanks! Do you know anything about the etymology of the word енеж? If it's etymologically related to ен (which seems quite likely) then it should have been on my list, too. :D

According to this article, it is a compound, the second part (эж) meaning 'cover', 'blanket', 'surface',...

BTW, thanks a lot for posting all these, I didn't even know there was an etymological link between ilma and ен. This thread is always interesting and full of surprises. :D

Edit: Just realized I misspelt it. The correct spelling is енэж, not енеж ...

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-24, 19:13

h34 wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Thanks! Do you know anything about the etymology of the word енеж? If it's etymologically related to ен (which seems quite likely) then it should have been on my list, too. :D

According to this article, it is a compound, the second part (эж) meaning 'cover', 'blanket', 'surface',...

BTW, thanks a lot for posting all these, I didn't even know there was an etymological link between ilma and ен. This thread is always interesting and full of surprises. :D

Edit: Just realized I misspelt it. The correct spelling is енэж, not енеж ...

Thanks, h34! :D

User avatar
Naava
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1072
Joined: 2012-01-17, 20:24
Gender: female
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Naava » 2019-08-25, 10:10

Linguaphile wrote: It's kind of fascinating to see all the ways in which the roots are used.

That's why I love this thread so much. :D And hey, thanks for finding all these words and making the lists! Saying this as if I wasn't copying what h34 did first lol.

Linguaphile wrote:Estonian adds "soft, gentle" though, which doesn't seem to be one of the meanings in Finnish. (In Estonian I suppose that could be an extension of the meaning "fuzzy" maybe.)

Yeah I haven't heard anyone using sumea for 'soft' but it kinda makes sense? If something has "non-sharp" edges, the edges look smooth, and if something is smooth, it's also soft... Or if you think about fog or clouds, 'hard' wouldn't be something I'd use to describe either. :)

Linguaphile wrote:I think it may be another one of those words that doesn't have an exact English equivalent. What do you think?

Sure, Finnish has lots of these tiny words that are used only in certain contexts (or with certain words). Like we have the word hipihiljaa: hiljaa means 'quietly' and hipihiljaa means 'very quietly', but would you say that hipi means 'very'? It's not used with any other word or on its own. Same with täpötäysi (completely full, very full; täpö doesn't mean anything on its own) or putipuhdas (completely/very clean; puti doesn't mean anything). Ilmi is slightly different from these because it has its own meaning (eg. tulla ilmi, 'to be revealed') and it's not based on alliteration (ilmielävä, ilmiselvä), but I still think it's more like a fortifier without one clear-cut meaning if you combine it with other nouns. If you translate these words, you would need to use something like 'very', 'completely', 'obviously', 'visibly' because English doesn't have a word for ilmi. It kinda means all these things, but it's still not the same IMO. I guess the major difference is that you can use the English words quite freely whereas the words with ilmi are almost lexicalised by now. You can't say that something very big is *ilmisuuri, for example. There's a group of ready-made words with ilmi and that's all you've got. I might miss one or two, but here's the ones I can remember/find right now:

    ilmianto - denunciaton, tip-off, accusation, laying of information (from antaa - to give)
    -----> ilmiantovelvollisuus duty to disclose, duty to inform [the police/the authorities], duty to report [to the police/to the authorities], duty to lay information, obligation to report to the police (velvollisuus - duty)
    -----> ilmiantaa - grass on sb, grass sb up, expose, report, ark rat on sb, shop sb to sb, split on sb (to sb) (antaa - to give)
    -----> ilmiantaja - informer, police informer, stool pigeon, rat, ark grass, nark, ark fink, denouncer, double-crosser, supergrass, snitch (antaja - someone who gives)
    ilmiasu - phenotype (asu - appearance, outward appearance, look)
    ilmielävä - in person, in the flesh; vivid, live (elävä - alive)
    -----> ilmielävänä - in the flesh (-nA - essive)
    -----> ilmielävästi - vividly (-sti - adverb)
    ilmiliekeissä - ablaze, consumed by fire (liekki - flame; -issA - plural inessive)
    ilmiriita - public quarrel, stand-up row, open conflict, open controversy, open quarrel (riita - fight, quarrel, argument)
    ilmiselvä - obvious, evident, plain, clear, manifest, blatant, flagrant, patent, self-evident (selvä - clear, distinct, plain, evident, apparent)
    ilmisota - shooting war (sota - war)
    ilmituleminen - detection (from tulla - to come)
    ilmitulo - disclosure, revelation, discovery, detection, exposure (from tulla - to come)
    ilmituominen - disclosure (from tuoda - to bring)
(Translations from the MOT dictionaries.)

IMO most of these have the meaning 'public' or 'obvious, visibly', although that is close to 'very, real'. But I dont think it's as obvious (:P) as in Estonian ilmvõimatu or ilmkärakas.

Many of my translations in that section didn't seem to quite capture the exact meanings, to be honest.

This is so true, no matter what you're translating or which languages you're using. It's actually the first thing I learnt in translation studies: you never manage to avoid losing some part(s) of the meaning. It's also the reason why I decided I don't want to be a translator/interpreter. (After the two first periods in my first year at uni, we we're asked if we want to continue our studies in linguistics or translation module. I chose linguistics, but it was cool that I got to read one book about translation for the entrance exam and then take one (mandatory) translation course because now I don't have any regrets or what if-scenarios in my head. :mrgreen:) Translating is really difficult and I respect all translators/interpreters so much. Especially those who do simultaneous interpreting.

I'm actually not all that sure what the equivalent expression should be in English.
. . .but to me it still doesn't have quite the right "feel" or connotation to it.

And this! You know, I study Finnish, literature, and English at uni. The first two are taught in Finnish, but English is taught in English. It's so horrible when I've had several courses in English and then I suddenly need to write an essay in Finnish - I'm automatically trying to write phrases like "in addition to this" or "in summary", and then I can't remember what they're in Finnish or it sounds really awkward and not academic at all. Or my favourites, however/nevertheless/nonetheless/despite this, which can all be replaced with kuitenkin. You know the feeling when you realise you've been repeating one word througout the essay? Or when I've finally got used to writing in Finnish again and I suddenly need to write an essay in English and try to use Finnish syntax which just doesn't work. Oh, the struggle! Ok this was a bit offtopic but oh boy don't I know how hard it is to translate things.

This is also why I like to give examples or describe the word instead of just translating it with other words. Even though patent can mean the same as ilmiselvä, it can also mean the piece of paper that prevents others from copying your inventions - and blatant and obvious kinda mean the same but I wouldn't recomment anyone to replace "isn't it obvious?" with "isn't it blatant?". :lol:

I'm really quite startled to find this error in Saagpakk's dictionary, because it's puzzling to me that Saagpakk would have made this mistake, but I'm really certain it's a mistake.

That's weird, but it proves that we're all humans and that anyone can make a mistake. And that you should never trust one source only. :)

Okay, so about ilme: regarding the meaning of "facial expression" it seems Finnish is relatively alone in this. As you mentioned, Estonian has it. But Estonian borrowed it from Finnish during the language reform (circa early 1900s), and ETY claims that in Finnish it came into use in the mid-1800s. None of the other Finnic or Saamic languages (or other Uralic as far as I know) have a cognate with the "facial expression" meaning.

Now I'm curious to know why we have a separate word for facial expressions when so many languages seem to do just fine without one. :hmm: I mean, it's a really useful word and I wish it existed in English for example! (I know you can say "sad face" etc but it's not the same.) But where we got it? Why has no one else come up with a similar word in other languages? :|

Also, two more words that I think have their roots in ilmi:
ilmiö - phenomenon, occurence ; prodigy*
----> ilmiömäinen - phenomenal, extraordinary, fantastic

Wiktionary says ilmiö was coined by Paavo Tikkanen in the 1850s.
(A bit offtopic but I absolutely love the neologisms in Finnish! There wasn't a uniform written language until the 19th-20th centuries, and no written language at all before the 16th century, so there was a lack of many terms and translations. Some people are famous for the words they created - some of these are still in use, while others sound absolutely hilarious nowadays. Did you know, for example, that Agricolatried to make us call lions noble deers? (Well we do have 'noble stones' (gemstone) and even English has noble gas, but it's still funny.) Or that he thought a proper name for 'graveyard' should be bone garden?
But I also like the words that became part of the language because nobody remembers that they were 100% made up by someone only a few hundred years ago. I mean, all words are made up by someone, sure, but we don't usually know the names or the dates when and who made them. My absolute favourite is sähkö, electricity, which isn't derived from any other word. Samuel Roos, who coined it, said that electricity reminded him of sähähtäminen, 'making a hissing noise', so there's some onomatopoeia - but it's not combined from other words like that creepy bone garden or a loan translation or simple add-some-suffixes-there-you-go.)


* Examples from MOT:
sääilmiö a weather phenomenon Huumeiden käyttö on valitettava ilmiö. Drug abuse is a deplorable phenomenon. Sattui outoja ilmiöitä. Some strange events took place. outo ilmiö esitelmätilaisuudessa a strange occurrence during a lecture Autovarkaus on yleinen ilmiö. Car theft is a common occurrence. Itsemurha on jokapäiväinen ilmiö vankilassa. Suicide is an everyday occurrence in prison. Kuten jalkapallomanagerit, kapellimestarit ovat nykyajan ilmiö. Like football managers, conductors are a phenomenon of the modern age.


-----------
Some new ideas:

(tingimata = necessarily, by all means; tingima = to condition, to determine)

This reminds me of
- tinkiä 1 haggle, haggle over the price, bargain [over the price] ; 2 reduce the price (the seller) 3 compromise, moderate, reduce, lower)
- its abessive tinkimättä (to the letter, rigidly, strictly, resolutely, unflinchingly)
(Examples: follow the instructions to the letter, strictly follow the instructions; perform one's duty unflinchingly)

Are these words related? They must be, they look so similar that it'd be a miracle if it was a coincidence. :hmm:

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before but:

(et) mure 1 sorrow, woe, grief 2 care, concern 3 anxiety, distress
(fi) mure, mures care, concern, worry [Southern Ostrobothnian dialect]
(fi) murhe sorrow, grief, worry, trouble

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-25, 15:28

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Estonian adds "soft, gentle" though, which doesn't seem to be one of the meanings in Finnish. (In Estonian I suppose that could be an extension of the meaning "fuzzy" maybe.)

Yeah I haven't heard anyone using sumea for 'soft' but it kinda makes sense? If something has "non-sharp" edges, the edges look smooth, and if something is smooth, it's also soft... Or if you think about fog or clouds, 'hard' wouldn't be something I'd use to describe either. :)

Hehe... we get some extremely dense and cold fog in winter where I live, and locally people do sometimes call it "hard fog"! I think that's very regional though, and not really correct. I suspect this term "hard fog" probably evolved as a comparison to "hard frost" (which locally means a frost that freezes plants all the way through, with a thick layer of ice on the outside, which will last throughout the day, while our more "normal" lighter frost would disappear before noon... a "hard fog" similarly will persist throughout the day instead of going away by noon. But honestly, I have no idea if that term is used in other places in English. It's just something I've heard people say here.

Naava wrote:It's also the reason why I decided I don't want to be a translator/interpreter. (After the two first periods in my first year at uni, we we're asked if we want to continue our studies in linguistics or translation module. I chose linguistics, but it was cool that I got to read one book about translation for the entrance exam and then take one (mandatory) translation course because now I don't have any regrets or what if-scenarios in my head. :mrgreen:) Translating is really difficult and I respect all translators/interpreters so much. Especially those who do simultaneous interpreting.

I am totally, 100% with you on this. I don't mind translating written work and I have done that sometimes. But I firmly believe that oral interpreting should be left to professionals. Most of the people I work with don't know any languages besides English and often don't realize how difficult it is to interpret on the spot. They also sometimes demand simultaneous interpretation because consecutive interpretation "takes too long" but I will absolutely refuse to do that; they can either find a different person to interpret, or stop talking and wait while I speak. (Besides that I try to get out of doing any kind of interpreting at all, but often they will just ask the nearest bilingual person to do it, so sometimes I do get roped into doing that. If I'm the only one there who can, I'm not going to say no!)

Naava wrote:Wiktionary says ilmiö was coined by Paavo Tikkanen in the 1850s.
(A bit offtopic but I absolutely love the neologisms in Finnish! There wasn't a uniform written language until the 19th-20th centuries, and no written language at all before the 16th century, so there was a lack of many terms and translations. Some people are famous for the words they created - some of these are still in use, while others sound absolutely hilarious nowadays. Did you know, for example, that Agricolatried to make us call lions noble deers? (Well we do have 'noble stones' (gemstone) and even English has noble gas, but it's still funny.) Or that he thought a proper name for 'graveyard' should be bone garden?
But I also like the words that became part of the language because nobody remembers that they were 100% made up by someone only a few hundred years ago. I mean, all words are made up by someone, sure, but we don't usually know the names or the dates when and who made them. My absolute favourite is sähkö, electricity, which isn't derived from any other word. Samuel Roos, who coined it, said that electricity reminded him of sähähtäminen, 'making a hissing noise', so there's some onomatopoeia - but it's not combined from other words like that creepy bone garden or a loan translation or simple add-some-suffixes-there-you-go.)

Estonian had a similar process around the same time. Some have become entirely legitimate and natural-sounding Estonian words and others never really caught on (like your noble-deer example). Perhaps later I will post some of them too. (Tingima and mure coming soon!) :D
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2019-08-25, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-25, 16:26

Naava wrote:Some new ideas:

(tingimata = necessarily, by all means; tingima = to condition, to determine)

This reminds me of
- tinkiä 1 haggle, haggle over the price, bargain [over the price] ; 2 reduce the price (the seller) 3 compromise, moderate, reduce, lower)
- its abessive tinkimättä (to the letter, rigidly, strictly, resolutely, unflinchingly)
(Examples: follow the instructions to the letter, strictly follow the instructions; perform one's duty unflinchingly)

Are these words related? They must be, they look so similar that it'd be a miracle if it was a coincidence. :hmm:

Yes, they are. Actually, "to haggle, to bargain" is the primary meaning of Estonian tingima too. I used to really struggle with remembering the meanings of these words when I first learned them and I think it was because the meanings of the words tingima, tingimata and tingimus seemed so different, even though the only difference between them was the suffix (infinitive suffix -ma, abessive suffix -ta and noun-forming suffix -mus).
They make a bit more sense once you learn the various meanings each word has, but initially I learned them as: tingima = to haggle over the price, tingimata = absolutely and tingimus = condition or state something is in. They were clearly variations of "the same word," but the connection between them eluded me and at first I couldn't even guess at the meaning of the *ting(i)- root that the suffixes were (theoretically) attached to.*
I do get the connection between the set of words now (tingimata necessarily, by all means, absolutely = "without bargaining, with no room to haggle, etc", which works with tinkimättä too even though its meaning isn't the same as tingimata) but at first I was constantly having to look them up in the dictionary each time I came across them because it just wouldn't stick.
The way that I finally learned to remember the meaning of these words was to equate *ting(i)- with "something that determines acceptable boundaries or limits", and although that isn't specifically the meaning of any of the individual words, it does work as sort of a "pseudo-root" that made all the derivatives finally make sense to me.
It turns out the reason the verb was not created from an actual noun form like *ting(i)- is that it comes from a Low German verb dingen to negotiate, to litigate, to act as a trustee, so it was initially borrowed directly as a verb.

(fi) tingata to stickle, to argue (dialect); to haggle, to bargain (colloquial) (per Wiktionary)
(et) tingima to bargain, to haggle; to condition, to cause/determine
(fi) tinkiä to bargain, to haggle; reduce the price; compromise, moderate, reduce, lower
(vot) tiŋkiä to bargain, to haggle, to trade
(vro) tinkõlõma to bargain, to haggle
(et) tinglema to bargain back and forth, to haggle repeatedly
(smi-sme) tiggedit to bargain back and forth, to haggle repeatedly
(smi-sme) tigget to bargain, to haggle, to reduce the price
(liv) dingõ to bargain, to haggle (ultimately from the same root but probably through (lv) diņģēt)

(et) tingiv conditional (tingiv kõneviis conditional mood, subjunctive mood in grammar)
(et) tingija bargainer, haggler
(vro) tinkõlõja bargainer, haggler; conditional (tinkõlõja kõnnõviiś conditional mood, subjunctive mood in grammar)

(et) tingimata necessarily, by all means, absolutely
(fi) tinkimättä to the letter, rigidly, strictly, resolutely, unflinchingly

(et) ting bargaining, haggling; a bargain (the result of bargaining) (not common, but found in Saagpakk's dictionary)*
(et) ting parsimonious, tightfisted (island dialects and Võrtsjärv dialects only)
(et) tingimisi conditionally
(et) tingimus condition, term, criterion; bargaining, haggling (elamistingimused living conditions)
(et) tingimusteta unconditional
(et) tingim condition (legal contexts only)
(et) tinglik conditional, stipulated

*Most dictionaries only list the English translation of ting as "nit" (as in the egg of a louse; Finnish saivare), but that comes from a different root and has a different genitive form (tingu nit vs. tingi bargaining).

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-25, 19:48

Livonian (liv) mur sorrow, grief; worry
Karelian (krl) mureh sorrow, grief; worry
Finnish (fi) murhe sorrow, grief; worry, trouble
Southern Ostrobothnian (fi) mure, mures care, concern, worry
murhe sorrow, grief; care, concern
Estonian (et) mure sorrow, grief; care, concern; worry, trouble; anxiety, distress
Võro (vro) murõq sorrow, grief; care, concern; worry, trouble; anxiety, distress
Votic (vot) murõ, murhõ sorrow, grief; care, concern, worry; anxiety, distress
Kihnu dialect (et) murõ sorrow, grief; care, concern; worry, trouble; anxiety, distress; strong feeling

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-08-31, 17:12

Finnish (fi) lintu bird
Karelian (krl) lintu bird
Votic (vot) lintu bird
Livvi-Karelian (olo) lindu bird
lindu bird
Estonian (et) lind bird
Livonian (liv) lind bird
Veps (vep) ľind bird
Ludic (lud) ľind bird
Ter Saami (smi-smt) лонньт bird
Kildin Saami (smi-smk) лоаннҍт grouse, capercaillie
Skolt Saami (smi-sms) lå'dd grouse, capercaillie
South Saami (smi-sma) ledtie grouse, ptarmigan
Lule Saami (smi-smj) lådde bird
Ume Saami (smi-smu) låďdee bird
Pite Saami (smi-smp) låttie bird
Inari Saami (smi-smn) lodde bird; flying animal
North Saami (smi-sme) loddi bird; flying insect
Northern Khanty (kca) ӆᴏнт goose
Southern Mansi (mns) лᴏнт goose
Northern Mansi (mns) лунт goose
Hungarian (hu) lúd goose
Meadow Mari (mhr) лудо duck
Hill Mari (mrj) лыды duck

Also related to:
Livonian (liv) lindõ to fly
Võro (vro) lindama to fly
Estonian (et) lendama to fly
Finnish (fi) lentää to fly
lentää to fly
Votic (vot) lentää to fly
Karelian (krl) lenteä to fly
Northern Saami (smi-sme) leandit to fly; to rush, to speed, to race
Inari Saami (smi-smn) lendiđ to drop, to fall

And if you happened to notice that Võro doesn't have a cognate meaning "bird" above (even though it has the root, since it does have a cognate for the verb "to fly"), here's why - it uses a different root for "bird": :mrgreen:
Võro (vro) tsirk bird
Tartu area dialects of Estonian (et-tar) sirk bird
Eastern coastal area dialects of Estonian (et-ran) sirk grasshopper
Ludic (lud) ťširk sparrow
Veps (vep) čirk bunting; small bird; tadpole
(fi) sirkka cricket
(vot) tširkka cricket, grasshopper
Karelian (krl) tširkka grasshopper; tadpole; swallow
serkka cricket, grasshopper
Ludic (lud) ťširkku grasshopper
Seto dialect of Võro (vro-set) tsirkun cricket
sirkkulain sparrow
Karelian (krl) tširkku sparrow, bunting, small bird
(fi) sirkku bunting
(vot) sirkku bird; siskin
Estonian (et) sirts groundhopper; tetrix (small insects related to grasshoppers)
Vastseliina dialect of Võro (vro) tsirts grasshopper
Estonian (et) -tirts (in compounds): rohutirts grasshopper, kõrbetirts locust

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-04, 0:15

So, I came across these pairs and thought they were interesting.

(et) väänama to distort; (vot) vääntää to translate
from Proto-Indo-European *wendʰ- "to wind, to turn", via Proto-Germanic *wenda-

(vot) tolkuta to understand; (et) tõlkima to translate
from Proto-Indo-European *telkʷ- "to talk", via Russian толк

I hadn't realized that Estonian tõlkima was a Russian loan, nor had it occurred to me that it was a cognate with English talk. Votic vääntää on the other hand presents a rather different view of what translation involves: a distortion or contortion rather than understanding. And it's a cognate with Ludic and Veps words (viättä, väta) meaning "to play a musical instrument." :mrgreen:

Expanding on the first one a bit:
Finnish (fi) vääntää to twist; to turn; to wrench
vääntää to twist; to turn; to turn around
Votic (vot) vääntää to twist; to turn; to break; to translate
Estonian (et) väänama to twist; to wring; contort; distort
Livvi Karelian (olo) viändiä to twist; to bend
Ludic (lud) viättä to play a musical instrument; to dance
Veps (vep) väta to play a musical instrument
Livonian (liv) vǟndõ to weave; to tie; to wrap

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-06, 3:12

(et) kask birch
(vep) kaśk assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(lud) kašk assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(krl) kaški assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(fi) kaski assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation; (dialect*) young birch, young deciduous forest
kaski assart; woodland burned and cleared for cultivation
(olo) kaski formerly cleared land with new birch trees growing in it; birch grove
(vot) kahtši birch

*ETY says that "young deciduous forest; young birch" (noor lehtmets; noor kask) are meanings of kaski in a Finnish dialect, but does not say which Finnish dialect(s) it is. Other than that, it seems Estonian and Votic are the only languages in which this word means "birch". All the other Finnic languages use a word related to Proto-Uralic *kojwa for "birch," and even Estonian (kõiv) and Votic (koivu) have synonyms for "birch" that come from *kojwa as well, but that's a list for another day!

Linguaphile
Posts: 2194
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Cognates and semantic shifts

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-09-08, 21:40

Linguaphile wrote:the other Finnic languages use a word related to Proto-Uralic *kojwa for "birch," and even Estonian (kõiv) and Votic (koivu) have synonyms for "birch" that come from *kojwa as well, but that's a list for another day!


(fi) koivu birch
(krl) koivu birch
(olo) koivu birch
(vot) koivu birch
(izh) koivu birch
(vep) koiv birch
(lud) koiv birch
(et) kõiv birch
(vro) kõiv birch
(liv) kõuvõ birch
(liv) kȭvaz birch
Kamassian (ru-kam) койӱ birch
Mator (ru-mat) куа birch
(mhr) куэ birch
(nio) күо birch
ӄя birch
Forest Enets (ru-for) ко birch
Tundra Nenets (yrk-tun) хо birch
(myv) килей birch
(mdf) келу birch
(mns) ха̄ль birch
(hu) hajó ship, nave
(hu) hajós sailor


Return to “Uralic Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest