Votic / Votian

Linguaphile
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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-14, 1:18

Õma maa (My Own Land)
(This is a Votic version of an Ingrian song called Omal Maal.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFcVkk5ZZ8M

Lyrics:
► Show Spoiler


Translation:
► Show Spoiler

Linguaphile
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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-18, 16:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km-Oei5U9A0

Vaďďa viisi munavõi = egg butter the Votic way (Estonian: Vadja)
    Vaďďa = Votic (Estonian: Vadja)
    viisi = way, manner (Estonian: viis)
    munavõi = egg butter (Estonian: munavõi)
Tänävä nõizõmmõ tetšemä munavõitõ vaďďa viisi = Today we're going to make egg butter the Votic way (tänä hakkame tegema munavõid vadja viisi)
    tänävä = today (tänä)
    nõiza = to start, to be going to (hakkama)
    nõizõmmõ = we start, we are going to (hakkama)
    tetšemä = to do, to make (tegema)
    munavõi = egg butter (munavõi)
    munavõitõ = egg butter, partitive (munavõid)
    vaďďa = Votic (vadja)
    viisi = way, manner (viis)
Võtõtõ kahs kanamunna = Take two chicken eggs (võetakse kaks kanamuna)
    võttaa = to take (võtma)
    võtõtõ = one takes (võetakse)
    kahs = two (kaks)
    kanamuna = chicken egg (kanamuna)
    kanamunna = chicken eggs, partitive (kanamuna)
Sata gramma võitõ = a hundred grams of butter (sada grammi võid)
    sata one hundred (sada)
    gramma gram (gramm)
    või = butter (või)
    võitõ = butter, partitive (võid)
Soola ja javvoa = salt and flour (soola ja jahu)
    soola = salt (sool)
    soola = salt, partitive (soola)
    ja = and (ja)
    javo = flour (jahu)
    javvoa = flour, partitive (jahu)
Tšihutõta munad = boil the eggs (keedatakse munad)
    tšihuttaa = to boil (keetma)
    tšihutõta = one boils (keedatakse)
    muna = egg (muna)
    munad = eggs (munad)
Panna munakoori vällä = peel the eggshells (kooritakse munad)
    panna = to put (panema)
    panna = one puts (pannakse)
    munakoori = eggshell (munakoor)
    vällä = out, off, away (välja)
Luzikaka survota = mash with a spoon (lusikaga surutakse)
    luzikka = spoon (lusikas)
    survoa = to mash, press (suruma)
    survota = one mashes, presses (surutakse)
kuniz munad jäävvä soojõssi = while the eggs are still warm (kuni munad jäävad soojaks)
    kuniz = until, while (kuni)
    munad = eggs (munad)
    jäävvä = to stay, to remain (jääma)
    jäävvä = they stay, they remain (jäävad)
    sooja = warm (soe)
    soojõssi = warm, translative (soojaks)
Panna võitõ, soola = add the butter [and] salt (pannakse võid ja soola)
    panna = to put (panema)
    panna = one puts (pannakse)
    või = butter (või)
    võitõ = butter, partitive (võid)
    soola = salt (sool)
    soola = salt, partitive (soola)
Hämmenetä = stir (segatakse)
    hämmentää = to stir, to mix (segama)
    hämmenetä = one stir, one mixes (segatakse)
Piäb veel lizätä javvoa = you still need to add the flour (peab veel lisada jahu)
    pitää = should, to need to , to have to (pidama)
    piäb = it's needed, one has to (peab)
    veel = still, yet (veel)
    lizäte = to add (lisada)
    javo = flour (jahu)
    javvoa = flour, partitive (jahu)
Siz tuub vad'd'a viisi munavõi = then you have egg butter the Votic way
    siz = then (siis)
    tulla = to come (tulema)
    tuub = it comes (tuleb)
    vaďďa = Votic (vadja)
    viisi = way, manner (viis)
    munavõi = egg butter (munavõi)
Leiväka vai tšämmelkakkoika on üvä süvve. = it's good to eat with rye bread or barley buns (leivaga või karaskiga on hea süüa)
    leipä = dark bread, rye bread (leib)
    leiväka = with rye bread (leivaga)
    tšämmelkakku = small loaf made from bread dough (paistekakk) or barley (karask)
    tšämmel = palm (kämmal)
    kakku = cake (kakk)
    tšämmelkakkoika = with small rye/barley loaves (paistekakkudega, karaskiga, "kämmalkakkudega")
    on = is (on)
    üvä = good (hea)
    süvve = to eat (süüa)
Kõvi makuzõ on! = it's very tasty! (väga maitsev on)
    kõvi = very (väga)
    makuzõ = tasty, sweet (maitsev, magus)
    on = is (on)
Kõik = that's all (kõik)
    kõik = all, everything (kõik)
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2020-04-18, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Naava
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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Naava » 2020-04-18, 17:39

Thanks for the video, that was very interesting! I had never heard anyone using flour for munavõi/-voi before. I wonder what its purpose is. :hmm:

I also don't understand what she means when she says "until the eggs are warm". How would mashing the eggs change their temperature?

By the way: hämmentää means 'to stir' in Finnish, too, but it's only used with soups, porridges, drinks, and other more or less liquid things. I was surprised when she said she's going to "hämmentää" and then she mixed the eggs! For a split second I thought she would take out a cup of coffee or something. :)

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-18, 18:46

Naava wrote:Thanks for the video, that was very interesting! I had never heard anyone using flour for munavõi/-voi before. I wonder what its purpose is. :hmm:

You are not alone. The Estonian version doesn't usually include flour either. In the comments under the video, one comment says: En täätännüči, što javvoa piäb panna. Järjestä prooban! ("I didn't know that you should put flour in. I'll try it now!") and the person who posted the video replied with Se on vaďďa viisi retsepti, inkeroiset ja soomalaiset eväd paa! (This is the Votic-style recipe, Ingrians and Finns don't put it in!")

Naava wrote:I also don't understand what she means when she says "until the eggs are warm". How would mashing the eggs change their temperature?

Now that I think about it more, I think it's meant to be while the eggs are (still) warm. It seems that kuniz has both meanings. The eggs have just been boiled, so it's saying to mash them before they cool (not until they get warm).
(Ohhh... while looking at the comments to the video, I discovered the description even has an English translation. :silly: And the English translation they have provided says "Mash with a spoon while the eggs are warm.") I'll fix mine. Thanks!
I also see they translated tšämmelkakkoika / čämmelkakkojka (lit. "palm-cake") as "flatbread".


Naava wrote:By the way: hämmentää means 'to stir' in Finnish, too, but it's only used with soups, porridges, drinks, and other more or less liquid things. I was surprised when she said she's going to "hämmentää" and then she mixed the eggs! For a split second I thought she would take out a cup of coffee or something. :)

That's interesting! Thanks. Estonian doesn't seem to use any cognate for stirring foods or drinks, just for stirring minds: hämmeldama (to confuse, puzzle, perflex). But it seems there is an older variant hämmendama which can also mean "to immerse, to submerge, to water" and an older eastern Estonian dialect word hämmetama, which means "to moisten". Vōro also has hämmähtämä, hämmämä and some similar words for "to moisten, to dampen, to water", and hämm "wet, moist". All of those seem a bit closer to the Finnish usage - at least they have to do with liquids.

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Naava » 2020-04-18, 19:28

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:Thanks for the video, that was very interesting! I had never heard anyone using flour for munavõi/-voi before. I wonder what its purpose is. :hmm:

You are not alone. The Estonian version doesn't usually include flour either. In the comments under the video, one comment says: En täätännüči, što javvoa piäb panna. Järjestä prooban! ("I didn't know that you should put flour in. I'll try it now!") and the person who posted the video replied with Se on vaďďa viisi retsepti, inkeroiset ja soomalaiset eväd paa! (This is the Votic-style recipe, Ingrians and Finns don't put it in!")

Well, good to know I haven't been doing it wrong all these years. :lol:

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:I also don't understand what she means when she says "until the eggs are warm". How would mashing the eggs change their temperature?

Now that I think about it more, I think it's meant to be while the eggs are (still) warm. It seems that kuniz has both meanings. The eggs have just been boiled, so it's saying to mash them before they cool (not until they get warm).
(Ohhh... while looking at the comments to the video, I discovered the description even has an English translation. :silly: And the English translation they have provided says "Mash with a spoon while the eggs are warm.") I'll fix mine. Thanks!
I also see they translated tšämmelkakkoika / čämmelkakkojka (lit. "palm-cake") as "flatbread".

That makes much more sense! :lol: I guess it's because they're using real butter and not margarine. Warm eggs would soften the butter - it looked quite hard in the video and I did wonder how she could mix it with eggs like that. My mum usually leaves the butter on a table for the same reason when she's making munavoi.

Next question: why do they use a spoon and not a fork? :silly:

Also also, do you know what tšämmelkakkoika are? It sounds like it could be something similar to rieska (either this type or this type) but I'm not sure.

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:By the way: hämmentää means 'to stir' in Finnish, too, but it's only used with soups, porridges, drinks, and other more or less liquid things. I was surprised when she said she's going to "hämmentää" and then she mixed the eggs! For a split second I thought she would take out a cup of coffee or something. :)

That's interesting! Thanks. Estonian doesn't seem to use any cognate for stirring foods or drinks, just for stirring minds: hämmeldama (to confuse, puzzle, perflex). But it seems there is an older variant hämmendama which can also mean "to immerse, to submerge, to water" and an older eastern Estonian dialect word hämmetama, which means "to moisten". Vōro also has hämmähtämä, hämmämä and some similar words for "to moisten, to dampen, to water", and hämm "wet, moist". All of those seem a bit closer to the Finnish usage - at least they have to do with liquids.

Hämmentää can also mean 'to confuse, puzzle' etc! So I could say hämmentää hämmenti mua, I was puzzled by hämmentää. :mrgreen: I don't know of any water related meanings, though. There might be something like this in the South Western dialects because they've had a close contact with Estonian, but unfortunately I don't speak any of those dialects so I can't say for sure.

No wait I got a better one: se hämmenti munia ja se hämmenti minua - 'she stirred the eggs and I was confused by that'.

By the way, I noticed there are more Votic words there that have cognates in Finnish but not in Estonian (or words that resemble their Finnish cognates more than Estonian):

javo = flour (jahu)
javvoa = flour, partitive (jahu)
> jauho, jauhoa (Finnish is like between Votic and Estonian :mrgreen:)

tšihuttaa = to boil (keetma)
> kiehuttaa (although usually we say that humans keittää and the stuff (and water) in the pot kiehua; but there's also the verb kiehauttaa, which means 'to bring to a boil, to parboil')

survoa = to mash, press (suruma)
> survoa

hämmentää = to stir, to mix (segama)
> hämmentää

kõvi = very (väga)
> kovin

Votic also seems to form the passive in the same way as Finnish:
võtõtõ = one takes (võetakse)
> otetaan

survota = one mashes, presses (surutakse)
> survotaan

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-18, 20:35

Naava wrote:Next question: why do they use a spoon and not a fork? :silly:

I'm guessing it's just more traditional. All of the utensils and dishes in the video are traditional wooden ones. The word for spoon is an older loan than the word for fork, so I assume the same is true of its use. (No native Finnic word for fork!) Maybe that's why?

Naava wrote:Also also, do you know what tšämmelkakkoika are? It sounds like it could be something similar to rieska (either this type or this type) but I'm not sure.

It certainly could be either of those, probably more like the second one. The problem is that it simply means "palm-cake" (as in the palm of your hand) so the word itself doesn't give much clue and it seems to refer to several different kinds of bread. The Votic-Estonian dictionary gives these three meanings:
  • 1. paistekakk (leivatainast küpsetatud pätsike); they are baked in an open fire, and this site describes them as being made of barley, like karask. In this photo, the ones on the left are Estonian paistekakud.
  • 2. (odra)karask This photo of karask looks similar to your second photo, but made with different ingredients. This is karask too.
  • 3. hädaleib (kuivatatud rohust ja vähesest jahust küpsetatud sõja- ja näljaaja leib)
Clearly, they don't mean #3 in the video. So that leaves "small loaf baked from bread dough" or "barley bread". And the makers of the video have translated it into English as "flatbread" and into Russian as "лепешка" - both mean various types of flatbreads. I suppose the reason it is called "palm-cake" is probably because it is shaped with the palms (like many flatbreads or tortillas), but since there isn't a video showing how to make that yet, I'm not sure. :mrgreen:

Naava wrote:No wait I got a better one: se hämmenti munia ja se hämmenti minua - 'she stirred the eggs and I was confused by that'.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-19, 18:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBRdurCIQU

Below I've written out the phrases from the video along with some dialect and orthographical variations.

For example, čümme(e), tšümme(e) means that the word can be spelled with either č or depending on which orthography is used, and it can be pronounced with a short or long e at the end, leading to four possible spellings for this word: čümme, čümmee, tšümme, tšümmee.
Most of the variations involve the č/ orthographical difference, long versus short final vowels, and the absence or presence of final vowels.

I also corrected a few small errors from the video: kuusčümmend needs ü not u; the child is 11 years old, not 12; it's lahzõll, not lahzõllõ, etc.


ühs(i) = one
kahs(i) = two
kõlmõd = three
neľľe, nellä = four
viis(i) = five
kuus(i) = six
seittse, seitsee = seven
kahõsa(a) = eight
ühesä(ä) = nine
čümme(e), tšümme(e) = ten

tere = hello
üvvä(ä) oomnikkoa = good morning
üvvä(ä) päivä(ä) = good day
üvvä(ä) ohtogoa = good evening
jäämme üvassi = see you (lit. we stay well, let's stay well)
üvvä(ä) üüte, üvvä(ä) üütä = good night
makka üvassi = sleep well
suurõd passibad = thank you very much

annõ antõssi = sorry (lit. give forgiveness), informal or singular
antõga antõssi = sorry (lit. give forgiveness), formal or plural
leip-sool = bon appetit (lit. bread-salt)
miä õõn siivollin = I am polite
õõdko siä? = and you? (informal/singular form)
kui vana siä õõd? = how old are you (informal/singular form)
millõ on kuusčümmend (kuustšümmend, kuuztšümmend) ühs vootõ = I am sixty-one years old
lahzõll on ühsteiššümed (ühstõššõmõt) voottõ = the child is eleven years old
poigõll on viisteiššümed (viistõššõmõt) voottõ = the boy is fifteen years old

miä õõn vaďďalain = I am Votic
venäläin = Russian
ukrainalain = Ukrainian
soomõlain = Finnish
virolain = Estonian
ižora (ižorilain) = Izhorian, Ingrian

müü õõmõ vaďďalaizõd = we are Votes, we are Votic
venäläizõd = Russian
ukrainalaized = Ukrainian
soomõlaizõd = Finnish
virolaizõd = Estonian
ižorad (ižorilaizõd) = Izhorian, Ingrian

müü pajatõmmõ vaďďassi = we are speaking Votic, we speak Votic
virossi = Estonian
soomõssi = Finnish
ven(n)äissi = Russian
ižorassi = Izhorian, Ingrian

čenči, čenči čiire(e)pä(ä), čerikkoz čelloa lüvvä [tšen(t)tši, tšen(t)tši tšiire(e)pä(ä), tšerikkoz tšelloa lüvvä] = put on your shoes faster, the church bells are ringing
    čenčiissä, tšen(t)tšiissä = to put on shoes, to put on footwear
    čenči, tšen(t)tši = put on your shoes, put on your footwear (imperative)
    čiire(e)pä(ä), tšiire(e)pä(ä) = more quickly
    čerikko, tšerikko = church
    čerikkoz, tšerikkoz = in the church
    čelloa, tšelloa = bells
    lüvvä = to hit, beat, knock; they hit, beat, knock

Isä mejje (meije) = our Father (this is not the usual word order in Votic; normally meije isä)
    isä = father
    mejje (meije) = our
kumpõ õõd taivaiz = who are in the sky
    kumpõ, kumpa = which, what, who
    õõd = you are
    taivai
    z
    = in the sky, in heaven
pühättü õlkõ sinu nimi = hallowed be your name
    pühättü = holy, consecrated
    õlko (õlkõ) = be, may it be
    sinu = your
    nimi = name
liči (litši) tulko sinu valtõ = may your domain come near
    liči (litši) = close, near
    tulko = come, may it come
    sinu = your
    valtõ, valta = domain, possession, parish
õlko (õlkõ) sinu tahto = your wish be done
    õlko (õlkõ) = be, may it be
    sinu = your
    tahto = wish, want, desire
nii maaz kui taivaiz = on earth as in the sky
    nii = so
    maa = earth, land
    maaz = on earth
    kui = as
    taiva = sky, heaven
    taivaiz = in the sky, in the heavens
Annõ (anna) meile leipä süümä vartõ (varta) = give us our needed bread
    annõ (anna) = give
    meile = to us
    leipä = dark bread, rye bread
    süümä = to eat
    vartõ (varta) = for, needed
i annõ (anna) meile mejje võlgõd antõssi = and give our debts forgiveness
    i = and
    annõ (anna) = give
    meile = to us
    mejje = our
    võlgõd = debts
    antõssi = forgiveness
kui müü antõssi annõmmõ meije võlgalisillõ = as we give forgiveness to our debtors
    kui = as
    müü = we
    antõssi = forgiveness
    annõmmõ = we give
    võlgalin = debtor
    võlgalisillõ = debtors
i elä saata meite (meitä) manitussõ = don't lead us into temptation
    i (ja) = and
    elä = don't
    saata = send, lead
    meite (meitä) = us
    manituz = enticement, temptation
    manitussõ = into temptation
a pässä meite (meitä) pahassõ (pahassa) = but save us from evil
    a = but
    pä(ä)ssä(ä) = save
    meite (meitä) - us
    paha = bad, evil
    pahassõ (pahassa) = into evil
Kui sinu on valtõ ja võimõ i slaavõ ičä(ä) (itšää) kõiki = as yours are the domain, the power and the fame for all times
    kui = as
    sinu = your, yours
    on = is
    valtõ (valta) = domain, possession, parish
    i = and
    võimõ (võima) = power
    i = and
    slaavõ (slaava) = fame, reputation
    ičä(ä) (itšää) = time, lifetime
    kõiki = all
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2020-04-19, 23:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Naava » 2020-04-19, 21:31

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:Next question: why do they use a spoon and not a fork? :silly:

I'm guessing it's just more traditional. All of the utensils and dishes in the video are traditional wooden ones. The word for spoon is an older loan than the word for fork, so I assume the same is true of its use. (No native Finnic word for fork!) Maybe that's why?

FYI and offtopic, but forks were introduced to Finland in 1562 by Catherine Jagiellon as part of her dowry. People thought it was a Satan's tool because it looked like a pitchfork. Some were even ashamed to use forks or feared them. They became common in every household only after the WWII. For example, the schools in Jyväskylä started to use forks as late as in 1976. (Source) No wonder there's no shared word for it in the Finnic languages! :D

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:Also also, do you know what tšämmelkakkoika are? It sounds like it could be something similar to rieska (either this type or this type) but I'm not sure.

It certainly could be either of those, probably more like the second one. The problem is that it simply means "palm-cake" (as in the palm of your hand) so the word itself doesn't give much clue and it seems to refer to several different kinds of bread.

It's the same with rieska - what kind of bread is meant depends on the region.

Linguaphile wrote:And the makers of the video have translated it into English as "flatbread" and into Russian as "лепешка" - both mean various types of flatbreads.

There's also lepuska/leposka, which is South Karelian thin bread made of potatoes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Linguaphile wrote:Isä mejje (meije) = our Father (this is not the usual word order in Votic; normally meije isä)

It's the same way in Finnish (Isä meidän)! :) I suppose it mimics the Latin pater noster.

Linguaphile wrote:kumpõ õõd taivaz = who are in the sky

Is it really taivaz? I know that's how it's written in the video but I could swear I hear taivaiz. Or am I so used to having a plural there that I'm imagining it? :hmm:

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-19, 23:24

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:kumpõ õõd taivaz = who are in the sky

Is it really taivaz? I know that's how it's written in the video but I could swear I hear taivaiz. Or am I so used to having a plural there that I'm imagining it? :hmm:

Thanks for catching that! Taivaz looked fine to me because I'm used to taevas in Estonian, but you're right, it's taivaiz. Actually, in the written text (theirs and mine) it has taivaiz in some places and taivaz in others. :noclue: Yeah, I'll fix it.

Naava wrote:FYI and offtopic, but forks were introduced to Finland in 1562 by Catherine Jagiellon as part of her dowry. People thought it was a Satan's tool because it looked like a pitchfork. Some were even ashamed to use forks or feared them. They became common in every household only after the WWII. For example, the schools in Jyväskylä started to use forks as late as in 1976. (Source) No wonder there's no shared word for it in the Finnic languages! :D

Cool, I knew that forks were introduced from elsewhere around that time and still not used for a while, but I didn't have any dates. Well, your 1562 date matches perfectly with the only citation I can think of - Jaan Kross's Kolme katku vahel which is a fictionalized biography of Balthasar Russow who lived in that same time period (1536–1600). Here's the Estonian version, followed by the English translation.

Original Estonian, Kolme katku vahel I by Jaan Kross:
Kuid ikkagi tundis ta end pagana ebamugavalt. Sest laual polnud mitte ainult valge linane palakas (niisuguse pealt olid Kalamajas ka Annika pulmasöömad söödud ja Meuse majas söödi selle pealt vähem pidulikkudelgi juhtudel) ja laual polnud mitte ainult puha hõbedased nõud (niisuguseid, kuigi rohmakamaid, aga mitte sugugi kergemaid oli isalgi omajagu kapiriiulil) — ei, häda oli siin selles, et kogu söömaaeg oli kuidagi harjumatult peen ja Pall oli nelja sööja seas kuidagi eriliselt nähtaval, ja mis peaasi: Magdalena-mamsli lauale taritud hane söödi nende neetud riistapuudega, mis olid nagu väikesed hõbedast sõnnikuhargid või Neptunuse kolmpiid, mida saksa keeles gaffel'iteks kutsuti, ja millel maakeeles nime polnudki. Ja peab ütlema: alles siis läks Pallul märksa kergemaks, kui ka raehärra Beelholt oma hõbehargi vaevahigise näoga lauale pani ja hanetagumiku tõsisel siitmaa moel kahe käega oma isukale hammasveskile ette tõstis.


From the English translation, "The Ropewalker" translated by Merike Lepasaar Beecher:
Yet he felt confoundedly ill at ease — not on account of the grandeur of the white linen tablecloth (which resembled the Kalamaja table covering at Annika's wedding feast, and the one they ate off even on less festive occasions at Meus's house); nor on account of the silver dishes (even his father had some of those on his shelves - not as finely wrought, perhaps, but no less solid) — no, the problem was that the entire process of eating was somehow refind in a way new to him, and he felt conspicuous among the other diners. The main difficulty was that the goose was being eaten with those cursed utensils that looked like Neptune's trident or miniature silver pitchforks, called gaffel in German, and for which there was no word in country tongue. Bal relaxed only when he saw Councilman Beelholt, his face damp from effort, put down his pronged silver utensil and, in keeping with local custom, pick up the goose leg with both hands.

I have to say, despite the associations with Satan, "miniature silver pitchfork" in the English translation sounds much more appetizing than the sõnnikuhark that appears in the Estonian original!

By the way (to get back on topic, since this is the Votic language thread) in Votic "fork" is gaaffali or gaaffeli in some dialects and vilkka in others. Although gaaffeli looks a lot like the gaffel mentioned in the novel above, both gaaffeli and vilkka came into Votic through Russian as far as I know - гафель (which according to Wiktionary is from Dutch, but at any rate, a northern Germanic language) and вилка (which comes from the Russian word for "little pitchfork").

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-20, 18:07

Colors again, because there is a new video where you can hear them. See also a previous post about colors without video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbRCqhgCm24

karvõd = colors
valka = white
mussõ = black
kauniz = red
ruska = reddish-brown
kõltõin = yellow
rohoin = green
tummõ-rohoin = dark green
sinin - blue
taivõz-sinin = sky blue
bruun = brown
harma = grey
roozovoin = pink
sirenevo = lilac
tummõ-kauniz - dark red

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Naava » 2020-04-20, 20:58

Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:kumpõ õõd taivaz = who are in the sky

Is it really taivaz? I know that's how it's written in the video but I could swear I hear taivaiz. Or am I so used to having a plural there that I'm imagining it? :hmm:

Thanks for catching that! Taivaz looked fine to me because I'm used to taevas in Estonian, but you're right, it's taivaiz. Actually, in the written text (theirs and mine) it has taivaiz in some places and taivaz in others. :noclue: Yeah, I'll fix it.

Well, in Finnish it's both:

Isä meidän, joka olet taivaissa (Our father, who are in heavens)
but
Tapahtukoon sinun tahtosi myös maan päällä niin kuin taivaassa (May your will come true also on Earth as it does in heaven)

Linguaphile wrote:I have to say, despite the associations with Satan, "miniature silver pitchfork" in the English translation sounds much more appetizing than the sõnnikuhark that appears in the Estonian original!

:rotfl:

Linguaphile wrote:By the way (to get back on topic, since this is the Votic language thread) in Votic "fork" is gaaffali or gaaffeli in some dialects and vilkka in others. Although gaaffeli looks a lot like the gaffel mentioned in the novel above, both gaaffeli and vilkka came into Votic through Russian as far as I know - гафель (which according to Wiktionary is from Dutch, but at any rate, a northern Germanic language) and вилка (which comes from the Russian word for "little pitchfork").

And to go offtopic again, it's kaffeli, kahveli, or kahaveli in Western Finnish dialects. IMO kahveli is used everywhere in West Finnish, but kaffeli is mostly a Southern Ostrobothnian and South Western word, whereas kahaveli is used in Southern, Middle, and Northern Ostrobothnian and in Peräpohjola dialects, but not in South West. It's a loan from Swedish, but at least in my experience people have switched to haarukka instead of kaffeli/kahveli/kahaveli. It still lives in some names though, especially restaurants and cafés (f.ex. a waffle place called Voffeli ja Kaffeli ('waffle and gaffel') or the youth café Kahaveli).

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-20, 22:51

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:kumpõ õõd taivaz = who are in the sky

Is it really taivaz? I know that's how it's written in the video but I could swear I hear taivaiz. Or am I so used to having a plural there that I'm imagining it? :hmm:

Thanks for catching that! Taivaz looked fine to me because I'm used to taevas in Estonian, but you're right, it's taivaiz. Actually, in the written text (theirs and mine) it has taivaiz in some places and taivaz in others. :noclue: Yeah, I'll fix it.

Well, in Finnish it's both:

Isä meidän, joka olet taivaissa (Our father, who are in heavens)
but
Tapahtukoon sinun tahtosi myös maan päällä niin kuin taivaassa (May your will come true also on Earth as it does in heaven)

Estonian uses singular (taevas) in both lines. But it seems that Votic uses plural (taivaiz) for both (and so does Livonian: touvis).

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-21, 14:42

The normal verb in Votic for "to speak" (as in, "to speak a language" or "to speak to someone") is pajattaa.

(vot) Pajattaa telefonaka = to speak on the phone
(vot) Pajatõn paľľo. = I speak a lot. / I talk a lot.
(vot) Müü pajatõmmõ vaďďassi. = We speak Votic.
(vot) Tämä nõõb pajattama. = He is going to speak.
(vot) Millõ piäb pajattaa. = I have to speak.
(vot) Miä õõn pajattamaz. = I am speaking.
(vot) Tämä lahkuz pajattamatta. = He left without speaking.
(vot) Mitä võõrassõ tšeelte siä pajatõd? = Which foreign languages do you speak?
(vot) Õzgõta pajattaa vaďďassi = to be able to speak Votic
(vot) Miä tunnõn vaďďassi pajattaa. = I know how to speak Votic.
(vot) Miä en tunnõ vennäissi pajattaa. = I don't know how to speak Russian.
(vot) Miä saan arvoa, a miä en tunnõ pajattaa. = I understand, but I don't speak.

There is a different verb for "to speak" used when referring to speaking the Izhorian language, at least in Rajo village: lägätä (to speak Izhorian). This comes from the Izhorian verb läätä which means "to speak". In Izhorian this verb is used for all languages, but in Votic it is used only for Izhorian.
(izh) Läkkäättä venäeks? = Do you speak Russian?
(izh) Miä läkkään ižoraks = I speak Izhorian.
(izh) Miä tahon vadjaks läätä = I want to speak Izhorian.
In the Kukkuzi village dialect of Votic läätä means "to say, to talk". In Jõgõperä village the verb lägätä means "to babble."
The conjugations of lägätä and läätä are quite similar, i.e. first person singular present tense läkkään for all three verbs (Votic läätä, Votic lägätä and Izhorian läätä).

Compare:
(vot) Miä pajatõn vaďďassi. = I speak Votic.
(izh) Miä läkkään vadjaks. = I speak Votic.

And:
(vot) Miä pajatõn vennäissi. = I speak Russian.
(izh) Miä läkkään venäeks. = I speak Russian.

And:
(vot) Millõ piäb pajattaa. = I have to speak.
(izh) Miul pittää läätä. = I have to speak.

But:
(vot) Miä läkkään ižorassi. = I speak Izhorian. (Or simply: Miä läkkään. = I speak Izhorian.)
(izh) Miä läkkään ižoraks. = I speak Izhorian.


The Votic-Estonian dictionary gives this example from Rajo, where the identities of the languages are indicated solely by the verbs:
Herraa valta läkäᴢ, a kunikvalta* pajatti = on the manor they spoke Izhorian, but in the part of the town belonging to the government they spoke Votic. ("On the manor they lägätä, but in the part of town belonging to the government they pajattaa.")
Neither language is mentioned by name, but it's understood that läkäᴢ = spoke Izhorian and pajatti = spoke Votic.

There's also this example from Vaďďa sõnakopittõja, which also uses just the verbs in place of the names of the languages:
Ižorad läetä, a vaďďalaizõd pajatõta. Mõlõpõd savva arvoa tõin tõizõssõ. = Izhorians speak Izhorian, but Votes speak Votic. Both understand each other. ("Izhorians lägätä, but Votes pajattaa. Both understand each other.")

And this one from an article by Heinike Heinsoo:
Millõõ näüttiib ellää cüläz, siin saab veel pajattaa ja läätä. = I like living in the village, because one still gets to speak Votic and Izhorian. ("I like living in the village, because one still gets to pajattaa and läätä.")

*herraa valta = the manor, literally the "lord of the manor's domain, landowner's domain"; kunikvalta = the part belonging to the government, literally "ruler's domain, king's domain"

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-22, 16:36

Mari Kalkun - Sadulmoi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qux1KTrwXhA

► Show Spoiler


► Show Spoiler

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-24, 23:18

Tai Tai - Ai-voi poigad (Rooz kaalina) (Ai-voi, boys!; also called Rooz kaalina or Roz kalina)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbw1S-opJB4

Lyrics:
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Translation:
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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Virankannos » 2020-04-25, 19:44

Kännu Peal Käbi – Tulkaa, tüttäred, tulõllõ (Come, daughters, to the fire)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQeahzPhwUw

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-26, 16:22

Another new video from Ekaterina Kuznetsova. This one has English translations in the video, so I won't put them below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y26p4SAwggg
Body parts in Votic
More words for body parts

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-05-02, 5:09

Another recipe in Votic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0jTi3v-1w

Vadďa süüttši = Votic food
Seljankõ = seljanka

Süämeᴢ on = ingredients (literally, "inside is")
    süämeᴢ = inside
    on = is
    soolapekk = salted lard (soola = salt, pekk = lard)
    piimä = milk
    munad = eggs
    javo = flour
    soola = salt
Võtõta soolapekki, neľľe munna, pool litra piimä, soola. = Take the salted lard, four eggs, half a liter of milk, and salt.
    võtõta = one takes
    soolapekki = salted lard
    neľľe = four
    munna = of eggs
    pool = half
    litra = liter
    piimä = of milk
    soola = salt
Lõikõta soolapekki. = Cut the lard
    lõikõta = one cuts
    soolapekki = the lard
Panna rehtelell. = Put it in the pan.
    panna = put, one puts
    rehtele = a type of pan without a handle
    rehtelell = into the pan
Tšühzetetä. = Fry it.
    tšühzettää = fry, bake, boil
Segata neľľe munna, soola, piimä ja kõlmõd luzikka javvoa. = Mix the four eggs, salt, milk, alf liter of milk, salt and three spoons of flour.
    neľľe = four
    munna = of eggs
    soola = salt
    piimä = milk
    ja = and
    kõlmõd = three
    luzikka = spoons
    javvoa = of flour
Sihhe panna sekauz = there we put the mixture
    sihhe = into there
    panna = put, one puts
    sekauz = mixture
i kõik meeb kõlmõssitšümmenessi minutissi ahjo = and everything goes into the oven for thirty minutes
    i = and
    kõik = all, everything
    meeb = it goes
    kõlmõssitšümmenessi = for thirty
    minutissi = for minutes
    ahjo = oven, into the oven
Eb hooli paľľo graadussiit = it does not need to be very hot (in a recipe in English this would probably be worded as "bake at low heat")
    eb = no, it doesn't, it isn't
    hooli = be needed, be necessary, should
    paľľo = many, much
    graadussiit = degrees
Kõik on valmiz = Everything is ready
    kõik = all, everything
    on = is
    valmiz = ready

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-05-06, 23:44

Animals and birds in Votic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8HKjVbcn8k

Because there is a lot of dialect variation, I've listed below the word used in the video, followed by the most common variation, if applicable.

elokõz = (elokaz) = animal, living thing (this includes all living things, including people, insects, etc; looma = animal in the narrower sense)

koirõ = (koira) = dog
katti = (kissa) = cat
koirapoikõ = (koirapoika) = puppy
katipoikõ = (katipoika) = kitten
lehme = (lehmä) = cow
õpõn = (opõn) = horse
lammõz = (lammaz) = sheep
sika = pig
põrzõz = (põrzas) = piglet
ärtše = (ärtšä) = ox
kitssi = (voho) = goat
susi = (huntti) = wolf
repo = fox
jänez = rabbit
karu = bear
põdrõ = (põdra) = deer
irvi = moose
jožikkõ (jožikka = hedgehog
iiri = mouse
õravõ = (õrava) = squirrel
mettsesika = boar
sorsõ = (sorsa) = duck
anõ = goose
kana = hen
kukko = chicken, rooster
puippu = chick
inďukkõ = (kalkkuna) = turkey
pallaz = pigeon
sova (üülakko[b], [b]hüüpiäᴢ) = owl
kajagõ = (kajaga) = seagull
tširkkulain = (värpo) = sparrow
sisavõ = (sisava) = nightingale
tšako = cuckoo
kiuru = lark

More animals and birds in Votic

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Re: Votic / Votian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-05-07, 22:46

Väike Hellero - Keitän õzrassa olutta (I'm brewing beer from barley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77vQTXsxP5g

Lyrics:
► Show Spoiler

Translation:
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