Livonian

hajoseszter
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Real Name: Eszter Hajós
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Re: Livonian

Postby hajoseszter » 2020-11-02, 23:30

Wow, thank you for your amazing help!
I'm back again with a song, I'm not sure if this was before in the forum or not. There's also lyrics in the description, but could you please check it? And also the translation. And word by word, if possible...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAekyLCSmkM

Could you also recommend me any folk song about/related to nature? In any small languages you know.

Linguaphile
Posts: 3187
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Livonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-03, 1:26

hajoseszter wrote:Wow, thank you for your amazing help!
I'm back again with a song, I'm not sure if this was before in the forum or not. There's also lyrics in the description, but could you please check it? And also the translation. And word by word, if possible...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAekyLCSmkM


sadā = come down (this is the verb used for rain and snow, so "pour" is also a possible translation here)
vīmõ = rain
ī'd stuņḑ = for one hour
līgõ, līgõ = this is a refrain often used in folksongs

alā = don't
sadā = come down
amā pǟva = all day, whole day
(līgõ, līgõ)

sadā = come down
vīmõ = rain
ī'd pǟva = for one day
(līgõ, līgõ)

alā = don't
sadā = come down
amā nädīļ = all week, whole week
(līgõ, līgõ)

sadā = come down
vīmõ = rain
ī'd nädīļ = for one week
(līgõ, līgõ)

alā = don't
sadā = come down
amā sõ'v = all summer, whole summer
(līgõ, līgõ)

sadā = come down
vīmõ = rain
ī'd stuņḑ = for one hour
(līgõ, līgõ)

alā = don't
sadā = come down
amā pǟva = all day, whole day
(līgõ, līgõ)


hajoseszter wrote:Could you also recommend me any folk song about/related to nature? In any small languages you know.

These are a few in "small languages" for which the translation is already posted:
Gula gula (Listen listen) (bottom of the post), about listening to nature, in Northern Saami
Julevädno (Lule River), about the river, in Lule Saami
Pääsköilintu, päivöilintu (Swallow, Bird of the Sun), a creation story based on nature, in Izhorian
Lendi linduine (A Bird Flew), a creation story based on nature, in Veps
Abuta, Jumal (Help, God) about drought, in Veps

awrui
Posts: 107
Joined: 2019-05-09, 9:55

Re: Livonian

Postby awrui » 2020-11-03, 3:37

Linguaphile wrote:
hajoseszter wrote:Could you also recommend me any folk song about/related to nature? In any small languages you know.

These are a few in "small languages" for which the translation is already posted:
Gula gula (Listen listen) (bottom of the post), about listening to nature, in Northern Saami
Julevädno (Lule River), about the river, in Lule Saami
Pääsköilintu, päivöilintu (Swallow, Bird of the Sun), a creation story based on nature, in Izhorian
Lendi linduine (A Bird Flew), a creation story based on nature, in Veps
Abuta, Jumal (Help, God) about drought, in Veps

Here a few Saami ones, most in North Saami.
Birkoj (Bjørgefjell) A mountain South Saami
Maze (Masi) A village
Duna Duna about a reindeer I think? Skolt Saami
These are folk songs I know. But there are quite a few pop songs!
Gárja - Crow a crow
Gumpe - Wolf a wolf
Onne lim (I was small) about being in nature South Saami
Buot eallá (everything is alive) about how to behave in nature
Arvas (Arvas) about a place called Arvas
Várre (Mountain) about mining in northern Sweden, Lule Saami
Njuvccat bohtet (swans are coming) about swans
Gáhkkor about some bird
Javrrit juiget (lakes are singing)

Linguaphile
Posts: 3187
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Livonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-03, 5:32

awrui wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
hajoseszter wrote:Could you also recommend me any folk song about/related to nature? In any small languages you know.

These are a few in "small languages" for which the translation is already posted:
Gula gula (Listen listen) (bottom of the post), about listening to nature, in Northern Saami
Julevädno (Lule River), about the river, in Lule Saami
Pääsköilintu, päivöilintu (Swallow, Bird of the Sun), a creation story based on nature, in Izhorian
Lendi linduine (A Bird Flew), a creation story based on nature, in Veps
Abuta, Jumal (Help, God) about drought, in Veps

Here a few Saami ones, most in North Saami.
Birkoj (Bjørgefjell) A mountain South Saami
Maze (Masi) A village
Duna Duna about a reindeer I think? Skolt Saami
These are folk songs I know. But there are quite a few pop songs!
Gárja - Crow a crow
Gumpe - Wolf a wolf
Onne lim (I was small) about being in nature South Saami
Buot eallá (everything is alive) about how to behave in nature
Arvas (Arvas) about a place called Arvas
Várre (Mountain) about mining in northern Sweden, Lule Saami
Njuvccat bohtet (swans are coming) about swans
Gáhkkor about some bird
Javrrit juiget (lakes are singing)



Iđitguovssu (Dawn Light) about a swan, in Northern Saami
Vihma Loits (Incantation of Rain) about rainstorms, in Võro
Lubadus (The Promise) about a sheep, in Võro
Põhjatuuled (North Wind) about living in nature, in Võro
Tuule sõnad (Wind Words) about the wind, in Estonian
Õhtu ilu (Beauty of Evening) about the evening, in Estonian
Veere veere päevakene (Roll, Day) about the sun, in Estonian
Tammetsõõr (Oak Circle) about interconnectedness of nature, in Estonian
Hüüdvad hülged (Calling Seals) about seals, sea birds and fishing, in Estonian
Siidisulis linnukene (Silk-Feathered Little Bird) creation story based on nature, in Estonian
Suur tamm (Big Oak), about a mythical tree, in Estonian

hajoseszter
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Joined: 2020-04-27, 13:48
Real Name: Eszter Hajós
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Location: Hungary
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Re: Livonian

Postby hajoseszter » 2020-11-17, 10:54

Linguaphile wrote:
hajoseszter wrote:Hi, I would like to ask you about a Livonian folk song's lyrics.
Here is this song sung by Skandenieki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubjiEVEhKv8
There is a lyrics in the description, but after seeing another version in this site - I'm not sure.
There was a post before of Tuļļi Lum's Jōņ loul lyrics - the first two verses are the same, I think. Could you help me with the rest of the song? I would like to have the lyrics as precise as it could be, with all diacritics and things. (And maybe some explanation about the words). Thank you!

Their translation is really quite good. It's good enough that I'm adding my own translation for the individual words below but using their translations for the full lines. The differences between theirs and the one I posted previously on this forum are due to their second stanzas being entirely different, not due to translation issues (except for one concerning the word viedāmõsõ, which I've explained below).
Their spelling seems to be a little off (pūošõdõn not pousõdõn, amā jõvā not amajuva, etc.) Below, I've changed the spelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubjiEVEhKv8

Ak sa Jōņõ, ēdrum Jōņõ = Oh, you John, John of the blooms
    ak = oh
    sa = you (they have it capitalized, like many European languages do in writing. I haven't seen this done in Livonian elsewhere, but I don't see why not.)
    Jōņõ = Saint John in this case, but it is also just the name "John" in general
    ēdrum = flower, bloom
    Jōņõ = [Saint] John
    They have written this last part as one word: ēdrumjōņõ = "bloom-John". I don't really see anything wrong with that. Compound words are extremely common. The reason I write it as two words is because it seems awkward to me to use a proper noun (Jōņõ) in the second part of the compound. I feel like proper name should be capitalized and you can't capitalize it mid-word. But I don't know what Livonian spelling rules would really have to say about that. Perhaps ēdrum-Jōņõ would work.
Mis sin ummõ viedāmõsõ = What have you got in the carriage?
    mis = what
    sin = your (you, genitive case)
    ummõ = your own, one’s one
    viedāmõsõ = into cargo (viedām = cargo)
    In my earlier translation of this song I had this written viedāmõsõ as two words. That's an error. Back then I mis-analyzed viedā as a form of the verb vieddā (to carry) rather than of the noun viedām (cargo). And I couldn't figure out the meaning mõsõ back then, because on its own it isn't a word. But I understand it now: as viedāmõsõ it means "in the cargo", referring to what he has in his carriage or wagon. So literally it is asking "What do you have in your cargo?"
Neitsõdõn um kūldist vāņka = golden wreaths for the maidens
    neitsõdõn = the girls (dative case)
    um = is
    kūldist = golden
    vāņka = wreath, garland (of flowers or cloth)
    I believe the "golden wreaths" are made out of gold-colored flowers. Vāņkad would not normally be made of actual gold as far as I know.
Pūošõdõn um tšounõ kibār. = Marten's fur caps for the lads
    pūošõdõn = the boys (dative case)
    um = is
    tšounõ = marten (in this case, referring to the fur of the marten, but it just means "marten")
    kibār = cap
Amā jõvā Jōņõāina = All the good John's herbs
    amā = all, everything
    jõvā = good
    Jōņõ = [Saint] John’s
    āina = plants, grass, herbs
    As a compound word Jōņõāina refers to the plants/grasses/herbs used for Saint John's Day/Midsummer (this is also referred to in the next line). I've heard this before as Jōņāina, but in the recording they clearly say Jōņõāina. I'm not sure if that's a dialect variation or the extra syllable was added to maintain the correct meter in the song.
mis katkūb Jōņȭdõn = that are picked on St. John's Eve
    mis = what, which
    katkūb = plucks, breaks, cracks - it refers to breaking something, but here it means picking the ferns and flowers, since you have to break stems in order to pick them
    Jōņȭdõn = on Saint John’s Eve (ȭdõn= in the evening); on Midsummer's Eve
Papāstõmd, īrtabārd = fern, yarrow
    papāstõmd = ferns (plural)
    tabārd = yarrows (plural)
    īrtabārd = a specific kind of yarrow: “mouse-yarrow”, īr = mouse, tabārd is the plural of tabār “yarrow”
Punni, vālda ōboliņ = red and white little clover
    punni = red
    vālda = white
    ōbiliņ= little clover (from ōbiļ "clover")


Back here, I just want to ask you what is Jānīti? (You missed it from the text here, but I've found it in Tuļļi lum song's lyrics you uploaded before). Also how can līgõ be translated or explained? I saw you wrote that in this song it don't have a specific meaning, I'm just wondering. Thank you!

Linguaphile
Posts: 3187
Joined: 2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Livonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-17, 15:20

hajoseszter wrote:Back here, I just want to ask you what is Jānīti? (You missed it from the text here, but I've found it in Tuļļi lum song's lyrics you uploaded before). Also how can līgõ be translated or explained? I saw you wrote that in this song it don't have a specific meaning, I'm just wondering. Thank you!

Both of these are refrains associated with the midsummer celebration. Jānīti is from a Latvian diminutive form of the name for Saint John. So its use here is as far as I know influence from Latvian, but refers again to Saint John.
"Līgõ" here is just a refrain that doesn't have a specific meaning, but it is also associated with the midsummer celebration. Refrains like this are used at the end of lines (in Livonian, Estonian, etc. songs) to create the rhythm and to give the singer time to come up with (remember or invent) the next line. They are usually said twice (līgõ, līgõ) and used at the end of every line of a given song. Some have no meaning at all.
So it could be thought of as simply a "meaningless refrain" because that is how it is used, but in this case "līgõ" does have several potential meanings. One meaning of "līgõ" is simply "to sing midsummer songs" (AFAIK this meaning arose due to the use of the refrain in midsummer songs, rather than the other way around) and another meaning is "swing, sway" (infinitive form of the verb līgõ) or "come, stay" (jussive form of the verb līdõ). So it is somewhat ambiguous here, just a sort of refrain related to midsummer inviting people to join the song or to join the celebration, without precise meaning but understood to mean roughly something like "we're singing this song, join the midsummer festivities!". Again the reason it is there in the song is more to set the atmosphere and maintain the desired rhythm, not so much for its specific meaning, but when people hear "līgõ, līgõ" they would know a midsummer song is being sung.

As another example, here is a Võro/South Estonian midsummer song that uses the refrain "liigo". The song is called simply "Liigolaul" (liigo-song, which the dictionary defines as "Latvian Midsummer Song") and the singer has not included the refrain in the lyrics she posted in the video description. In other words it is more "a feature of this type of song" than actual meaningful lyrics. The refrain is used in Latvian midsummer songs as well, so, basically, throughout the whole region in various languages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaf8phUTavs
The Finnish band Värttinä, who sing in Finnish but have a lot of influences from other Finno-Ugric languages in their songs, also has a song called Liigua with the refrain "liigua, liigua":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaUmv7fDpGw
And a Latvian one (where again they did not include the "līgo" lines in the lyrics that are written in the description, presumably because those lines aren't considered to add any meaning to the song) - although in Latvian you can also translate it as "sway". Whether or not it is meant to have that meaning in midsummer songs seems to be open to debate. Here, you can hear various variations of it from the different singers from (judging from their clothing) different regions of Latvia, at different points in the song - they don't all pronounce it as līgo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2r-uspx6LM


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