Moderator interventions

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linguoboy
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Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-09, 17:13

After our previous discussions, I didn't think the moderation team was going to keep silently editing member posts. I don't think it's necessary for the moderators to do this at all, but even assuming that it is, I think it's inexcusable to do it without informing anyone that it's being done.

Furthermore, if a contributor here decides to show the rest of the group their whole ass in a post, why conceal it? This is valuable information for the rest of the membership that can and should inform their future interactions with this person. If you're worried about it sparking a flamewar, freeze the thread.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby Antea » 2019-04-09, 17:25

What happened? :para:

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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-09, 17:42

I don’t know if I’m allowed to say.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby Johanna » 2019-04-09, 17:54

You should, at least if you don't get into specifics.

@Antea, someone threw a tantrum when they weren't simply taken at their word and instead presented with evidence that their initial claim didn't hold water. That post later got edited by a forum admin, to remove the offending content, but on the surface it looks like it hasn't been altered at all.

When you edit a post like that, without stating a reason, the only way for anyone to see that it's been changed is to go into the moderator logs in the moderator control panel. And naturally, only stuff in the specific subforums you have moderator privileges in show up there, so I can't see if anyone's silently edited something in General Topics for example.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby Aurinĭa » 2019-04-09, 18:05

A post was made that called another UL member a troll. I removed that part of the post from public view, and part of linguoboy's post that was made in response to the accusation of trolling (and as such wouldn't have made sense to leave without what it was referring to). I apologise for forgetting to give the reason for the edits. I'm now waiting for the other admins to weigh in, so we can decide what action to take.
As to why we remove insults: we want to make this a welcoming space for everyone, and leaving insults in plain view does not make for a very welcoming atmosphere.

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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-09, 19:27

Aurinĭa wrote:As to why we remove insults: we want to make this a welcoming space for everyone, and leaving insults in plain view does not make for a very welcoming atmosphere.

...which is exactly why I think you might not want to remove them.

How welcome would you feel if you joined a group, starting participating in discussions, and then had someone go off on your for no reason? Now imagine discovering that members of the group knew that the person who went off on you had a history of doing that and they had systematically deleted the evidence before you could see it? Would you have been grateful to them? Or would you rather have seen this past history before making the decision to interact with this person?

Are you familiar with the missing stair analogy? We have a missing stair here that (as far as I know) we've chosen not to "repair" (i.e. the member has not been permbanned) for reasons that may be quite valid (and quite in keeping with our past decisions to move to a more forgiving moderational style) and that don't necessarily need to be discussed here. By editing discussions in this way, we are camouflaging the missing stair in such away as to make it more likely that someone else will unwittingly step on it. Can you explain to me why?
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby Aurinĭa » 2019-04-09, 20:39

linguoboy wrote:Would you have been grateful to them? Or would you rather have seen this past history before making the decision to interact with this person?

That's assuming I'd actually see that person's past history, which wouldn't be very likely (unless that group has maybe a few posts a week, which is not the case for UniLang). On the other hand, if I joined a group and saw insults against other members in plain view, I would think twice about staying in that group.

I am familiar with the missing stair analogy, yes, but I'm not sure what you're asking here other than what the reasons I've already explained. We edit discussions in this way so that other people who want to read those discussions can do so without having to read insults or filter out trolling posts.

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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-09, 21:01

Aurinĭa wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Would you have been grateful to them? Or would you rather have seen this past history before making the decision to interact with this person?

That's assuming I'd actually see that person's past history, which wouldn't be very likely (unless that group has maybe a few posts a week, which is not the case for UniLang).

ProTip: By clicking on a member's name, you can see their posting history. I often do this before responding to someone whose name I don't immediately recognise. I always do it when the person I'm considering responding to has said some things in the thread which make me wonder how belligerent they're likely to be.

Aurinĭa wrote:On the other hand, if I joined a group and saw insults against other members in plain view, I would think twice about staying in that group.

I would, too. But if alongside them I saw evidence of prompt and effective moderator intervention, it would reassure me.

There's a big difference between being actually welcoming and only projecting the appearance of being welcoming. All groups have their issues. You never screen out all the trolls and shit-disturbers. It's how you deal with them which communicates what kind of group you are and what members can expect if they join.

Aurinĭa wrote:I am familiar with the missing stair analogy, yes, but I'm not sure what you're asking here other than what the reasons I've already explained. We edit discussions in this way so that other people who want to read those discussions can do so without having to read insults or filter out trolling posts.

I'm asking you reconsider that policy, because it might not be having the effect you intend. I think I've explained why I think that, so we're probably just at another impasse.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-04-10, 0:41

Aurinĭa wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Would you have been grateful to them? Or would you rather have seen this past history before making the decision to interact with this person?

That's assuming I'd actually see that person's past history, which wouldn't be very likely

linguoboy wrote:But if alongside them I saw evidence of prompt and effective moderator intervention, it would reassure me.

This right here is why it is likely that you would see it: Because it's neither prompt nor effective and never will be either of those.

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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-10, 14:50

vijayjohn wrote:This right here is why it is likely that you would see it: Because it's neither prompt nor effective and never will be either of those.

Is that a helpful thing to say? In fact, it was pretty prompt in this case--within the hour, if I'm not mistaken.

This morning, I got notification of another post to the thread but there's no additional post there now. Did the poster delete it or was it deleted by a moderator? Who knows? Only the moderators, I guess.

(BTW, there's yet another reason not to oversanitise threads: How are members who come late to the discussion supposed to know that there's no point in replying to the OP because they've already flounced?)
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby Johanna » 2019-04-10, 17:45

linguoboy wrote:This morning, I got notification of another post to the thread but there's no additional post there now. Did the poster delete it or was it deleted by a moderator? Who knows? Only the moderators, I guess.

That is more of a software problem though, there simply isn't a way to tell whether a post was moved by a mod or deleted by its author before a reply had been made, not unless you once again go into the moderator logs, which again requires you to have moderator privileges in that particular subforum.

So my guess is what you really want is for forum admins and language forum mods to post a notification whenever they clean up a thread? That is something I can definitely get behind, at least as long as it's not required for pure spam. Heck, those kind of notifications were one of the main reasons the purple and green tags were created back when I was a forum admin even.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-10, 18:56

Johanna wrote:So my guess is what you really want is for forum admins and language forum mods to post a notification whenever they clean up a thread?

You don't have to guess; you can look back at what I posted here a year ago.

I'm not sure if it's something the mods considered and ultimately refused or never bothered to consider.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby dEhiN » 2019-04-11, 19:04

linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure if it's something the mods considered and ultimately refused or never bothered to consider.

As far as I remember, we did consider it and even agree to it. I remember following that suggestion for one thread that I edited: I edited the thread, and then posted using the admin tags to mention what I did and to remind everyone of forum policy.

Aurinĭa wrote:I apologise for forgetting to give the reason for the edits. I'm now waiting for the other admins to weigh in, so we can decide what action to take.

So it seems to me that Aurinĭa just forgot as opposed to intentionally following old patterns. Perhaps all that's necessary now is for Aurinĭa to add a post to that thread specifying what happened?

Personally, I think that editing posts to remove troll/spam-like comments is a good idea, provided that an explanatory post is added so there's no confusion.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-15, 21:16

I want to thank the team for their prompt intervention and their very clear messaging in the most recent incident. So far, it's been a model response.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby dEhiN » 2019-04-17, 3:50

linguoboy wrote:I want to thank the team for their prompt intervention and their very clear messaging in the most recent incident. So far, it's been a model response.

We do have offline lives, you know! It's been a little over 24 hours since the incident and you're acting like we've taken a week. Once again, if you're so concerned over the administration of this forum, you're perfectly free to leave or to ask to be an admin - that way you can ensure the responses to every incidence is less than 24 hours even though you, like the rest of us, have an offline life.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby dEhiN » 2019-04-17, 3:55

linguoboy wrote:I want to thank the team for their prompt intervention and their very clear messaging in the most recent incident. So far, it's been a model response.

I've stepped down from admin so now there's a slot open for you to show the rest of the team and the forum in general how a forum administrative team should be run. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to have you as an admin!

PS. Don't bother responding to this or my other post. I'm not interested in what you have to say anymore, since I'm no longer an admin.
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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-04-17, 12:08

dEhiN wrote:It's been a little over 24 hours since the incident and you're acting like we've taken a week.

Did you think he was being sarcastic when he said thank you? I'm pretty sure he wasn't.

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Re: Moderator interventions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-17, 14:11

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:It's been a little over 24 hours since the incident and you're acting like we've taken a week.

Did you think he was being sarcastic when he said thank you? I'm pretty sure he wasn't.

For the record, I wasn't, but I think that was pretty clear to anyone without a particular animus towards me.

dEhiN wrote:I've stepped down from admin so now there's a slot open for you to show the rest of the team and the forum in general how a forum administrative team should be run. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to have you as an admin!

That, on the other hand, is clearly sarcasm.
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