Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

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vijayjohn
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 22:34

So what do people think of replacing "Polynesian languages" with "Oceanic languages" now?

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-10, 22:42

vijayjohn wrote:So what do people think of replacing "Polynesian languages" with "Oceanic languages" now?

But that will not include Australian or Papuan, right? "Oceanic languages" is too narrow, but that's just my opinion. As we are not going to create separate subforums for Austalian and Papuan, I think it's better to have them groped there, rather than in the "Othe languages" subforum.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 22:46

But like I said:
Maybe I was wrong to suggest "Oceanian" over "Oceanic" after all; I guess we could come full circle and call it "Oceanic languages" as originally proposed, but with a broad definition of "Oceanic" as used in Oceanic Linguistics.

So then it would indeed include Australian and Papuan.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-10, 22:56

vijayjohn wrote:But like I said:
Maybe I was wrong to suggest "Oceanian" over "Oceanic" after all; I guess we could come full circle and call it "Oceanic languages" as originally proposed, but with a broad definition of "Oceanic" as used in Oceanic Linguistics.

So then it would indeed include Australian and Papuan.

Sorry, I didn't check the link earlier.
Then it should be ok, but I think we should make some post explaining what languages are included, because if I wanted to learn an Australian language, I wouldn't look for it there.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-10, 23:03

Oops, didn't realize there where more posts.

I'm up for anything as long as our three main groups (Australian, Austronesian and Oceanic Proper) get groups together some how.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2018-02-10, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 23:04

Irusia wrote:Then it should be ok, but I think we should make some post explaining what languages are included, because if I wanted to learn an Australian language, I wouldn't look for it there.

I think that could be arranged. :) It could be one of the announcement threads, like the TAC introduction thread, or it could be a thread by one of the mods.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Yserenhart » 2018-02-10, 23:27

vijayjohn wrote:But like I said:
Maybe I was wrong to suggest "Oceanian" over "Oceanic" after all; I guess we could come full circle and call it "Oceanic languages" as originally proposed, but with a broad definition of "Oceanic" as used in Oceanic Linguistics.

So then it would indeed include Australian and Papuan.

Oceanic languages are an established family. It's not because one journal decides that it means something else that that definition is a good one to use.

vijayjohn wrote:
Irusia wrote:Then it should be ok, but I think we should make some post explaining what languages are included, because if I wanted to learn an Australian language, I wouldn't look for it there.

I think that could be arranged. :) It could be one of the announcement threads, like the TAC introduction thread, or it could be a thread by one of the mods.

That would require a user to already go into the forum to see it, not something one is likely to do when intending to start a thread on a language that doesn't seem to fit from the name of the forum.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 23:41

It's a very well-known journal among linguists at any rate, and it seems difficult for anyone studying any of these languages nontrivially not to come across it.

But if that doesn't work, I believe you proposed "Australian, Austronesian, and Papuan Languages"? Are there any problems with that then?

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby atalarikt » 2018-02-11, 2:37

What about "Australasian & Polynesian Languages"? I believe it's a bit much simpler than "Australian, Austronesian & Papuan" but also pretty definitive on its own.
وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (Ar-Rum: 22)

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-11, 2:45

If we're going with the geography, I think Malagasy could go to Africa and Taiwan could stay in the Southeast Asia territory. After all, if we're doing this by language family then we cannot keep Australian and Papuan along with the Oceanic. Personally I think just "Pacific" is fine, or something like "Oceanic, Australian and Papuan." I'm afraid "Austronesian" might have too much an overlap with the "Southeast Asia."

And for Ainu and the miscellaneous others further up in the north, I'm not sure if it even makes any thematic sense to group with them. One day we might have "North Asian" forum and have a bustling community discussion on Ainu, Chukchi, Yeniseic languages and Yukaghir.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-11, 3:05

At this point, I personally don't see a problem with "Oceanic, Australian, and Papuan," "Australasian and Oceanic languages," or "Australian, Austronesian, and Papuan Languages." They're kind of long, but then so is "Ancient, Classical, and Extinct Languages" (for example). I am also still fine with "Pacific." I sort of get Yserenhart's objection to it, but given that it's his word against almost everyone else's so far, I somehow doubt the fact that it's a vague label for what we actually mean is that big of a problem.
Karavinka wrote:If we're going with the geography, I think Malagasy could go to Africa and Taiwan could stay in the Southeast Asia territory.

Why? Taiwan isn't in Southeast Asia, and the Formosan languages aren't in that forum. Malagasy is already in the African forum, though.
And for Ainu and the miscellaneous others further up in the north, I'm not sure if it even makes any thematic sense to group with them. One day we might have "North Asian" forum and have a bustling community discussion on Ainu, Chukchi, Yeniseic languages and Yukaghir.

Isn't "North Asia" basically just Siberia?

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-11, 9:30

Karavinka wrote:I'm afraid "Austronesian" might have too much an overlap with the "Southeast Asia."

We can rename "Southeast Asian languages" as "Austroasiatic, Hmong-Mien and Tai-Kadai languages". However, that's also a long name. But I don't see any problem with having a long name.

Edit:
I think we can just name it "Mainland Southeast Asian languages"

Karavinka wrote:And for Ainu and the miscellaneous others further up in the north, I'm not sure if it even makes any thematic sense to group with them. One day we might have "North Asian" forum and have a bustling community discussion on Ainu, Chukchi, Yeniseic languages and Yukaghir.

I agree.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-11, 16:40

I honestly don't think Austronesian has too much of an overlap with Southeast Asian languages. Also, Cham is spoken in mainland Southeast Asia.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-11, 21:12

In my personal interpretation of the discussion so far, "Pacific Languages" wins.

I don't really see the need to change the name of, nor expand, the SEA forum. If there are things to be moved there, let's move them there. The object of this is not to make the "Other Languages" section go away, rather it's to maximize the usage (within reason) of the subforums we already have.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-11, 21:16

księżycowy wrote:I don't really see the need to change the name of, nor expand, the SEA forum.

I proposed changing the name only to avoid an overlap with the Pacific subforum.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-11, 21:21

No, I understand that. It's just, geographically speaking, it's not considered the Pacific Islands or Australia. The only possible over lap is Papua New Guinea.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-11, 21:24

księżycowy wrote:The only possible over lap is Papua New Guinea.

What do you mean? Papua New Guinea is not in Southeast Asia.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-11, 21:43

Which is pretty much my point. :P

That reminds me, Vijay, if this thing get's created, do you want to mod it together? I figure between both of our knowledge of Australian Aboriginal languages and your knowledge of Papuan languages that will give us some good coverage.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-11, 21:48

Sure! :mrgreen:
księżycowy wrote:In my personal interpretation of the discussion so far, "Pacific Languages" wins.

I don't really see the need to change the name of, nor expand, the SEA forum. If there are things to be moved there, let's move them there. The object of this is not to make the "Other Languages" section go away, rather it's to maximize the usage (within reason) of the subforums we already have.

I agree with all of this, except I don't even see what needs to be moved there. :hmm:

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-11, 21:52

vijayjohn wrote:I agree with all of this, except I don't even see what needs to be moved there. :hmm:

I wrote the list of threads which need to be moved.
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