Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-23, 1:22

księżycowy wrote:Ok. Sounds like a plan.

I just hope it turns out to be more than just us two talking now that the others got their Uralic subforum. :P

LOL

FWIW, I think the question of geographical versus linguistic depends on a variety of factors and won't necessarily be the same for each group of languages. And I'll keep following this discussion and chime in whenever I have an opinion. But when you are discussing language groups I know little about, I don't really feel qualified to jump in (nor do I have strong opinions on it either way). To me it makes sense to let those who do participate in those forums (or who would start participating in them if changes were made) be the ones who decide. So whenever I fall into the category, I'll contribute to the discussion; whenever I don't, I'll just read the comments.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-23, 12:38

There's a lot I'd love to say right now, but I don't really have time, so I'd just like to point this out before I forget (and so I don't have to count again):

There are 32 subforums specifically for Indo-European languages (including the Celtic Languages subforum), and even then, we don't have a home for some of the languages in that family. It is possible to merge some of these (indeed, Aurinĭa had already suggested this, including for the Dutch forum she mods and IIRC also the Afrikaans forum she mods).

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-23, 18:37

I just remembered something Vijay-chan.

Where does the ACEL subforum fit I to the whole language family plan?

(You don't have to jump to answer this, I just wanted to ask before I forgot.)

In my opinion, if we did group languages by language family to some degree or another, I would think that older forms of said languages would go with that group. But that's my thought.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-23, 23:32

I'd rather just keep it as it is (minus Neo-Aramaic since some of y'all at least would like to see it in a different forum). There are a lot of entire language families that are extinct, too, after all.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-23, 23:35

Neo-Aramaic isn't extinct just yet after all! :P

But I suppose I don't care strongly enough to fight you on this. There's certainly no reason why an extinct forum can't exist.



See what I did there? :lol:

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-24, 3:34

Okay, you have officially gone over my head with that joke. :P
księżycowy wrote:Neo-Aramaic isn't extinct just yet after all! :P

No, but neither is Sanskrit really...

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-24, 4:52

vijayjohn wrote:Okay, you have officially gone over my head with that joke. :P
księżycowy wrote:Neo-Aramaic isn't extinct just yet after all! :P

No, but neither is Sanskrit really...

I know that it is taught in schools and has some official status, but are there many people who speak Sanskrit as a native language and use it as their primary language in everyday communication? The people I know who speak Sanskrit know it as their third, fourth (or more) language, after their native language (Punjabi in this case), Hindi, and English, and describe it as an "old language" (in a positive way, but still, they view it as learning an older language, the way a Spanish-speaker might view the study of Latin, for example). I had believed (or assumed) that Sanskrit was no longer used as a native, primary community language anywhere and was mainly used in religious or scholarly contexts.
But I know that each region of India is different and that judging its status elsewhere based on native Punjabi speakers isn't helpful. Are there still areas where Sanskrit has continued from generation to generation as the main form of communication?

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-24, 5:19

Linguaphile wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Okay, you have officially gone over my head with that joke. :P
księżycowy wrote:Neo-Aramaic isn't extinct just yet after all! :P

No, but neither is Sanskrit really...

I know that it is taught in schools and has some official status, but are there many people who speak Sanskrit as a native language and use it as their primary language in everyday communication? [...] Are there still areas where Sanskrit has continued from generation to generation as the main form of communication?

Sort of. See also here. And this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FTVGNdDp2o
It's an ad with a voiceover in Hindi saying just one liter of gas can take you 4,500 years back and shows this biker riding through Mattur while people in the village are telling him in Sanskrit that a tree cut down the previous night is blocking the road. :lol:

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby atalarikt » 2018-03-24, 9:56

On an unrelated side note, I've contacted Rein Sikk (one of the guys in http://www.uflag.org) about the use of pan-Uralic flag for our latest subforum here, and he appreciates it.
Rein Sikk.PNG
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وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (Ar-Rum: 22)

Jika saya salah, mohon diperbaiki. If I make some mistake(s), please correct me.
Forever indebted to Robert A. Blust for his contributions to Austronesian linguistics

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-24, 10:19

vijayjohn wrote:Okay, you have officially gone over my head with that joke. :P

Extinct.

Dead.

Forum.

....Get it?

księżycowy wrote:Neo-Aramaic isn't extinct just yet after all! :P

No, but neither is Sanskrit really...

I'm not going to even begin to claim I understand the situation with Sanskrit in India. All I can say is generally speaking the Western World concidered it a Classical language. Whatever that means.

I'm completely ok with not having it in the Extinct subforum. Depending on the situation.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-24, 12:27

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Okay, you have officially gone over my head with that joke. :P

Extinct.

Dead.

Forum.

....Get it?

Oh OK. :P
I'm not going to even begin to claim I understand the situation with Sanskrit in India. All I can say is generally speaking the Western World concidered it a Classical language. Whatever that means.

India also considers it a classical language. But it also considers Malayalam, Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, and Odia to be classical languages just because they have old literary traditions, so... :P

Sanskrit is sort of like Latin: Classical Sanskrit started out as the written form of Vedic Sanskrit a.k.a. Old Indo-Aryan, just like Classical Latin started out as the written form of...well, very old Vulgar Latin, I guess. Like Latin, it's associated with a certain religion, is used in the liturgy, and was originally the language used for literature, especially pan-Indian literature, research, etc. until local vernaculars started being used for this purpose instead. Also like Latin, there is a revival movement.

Perhaps the most crucial difference that factors in in this case is the caste system, especially the fact that it's never really disappeared in India, or perhaps even in South Asia more generally. Traditionally, only those at the very top of the caste hierarchy (i.e. Brahmins - teachers, scholars, priests) had the privilege of an education (even though that education was basically slavery). Even after education became available even to people outside the caste system (untouchables/Dalits/Adivasis/whatever), Sanskrit still wasn't and continues to be associated primarily with Brahmins (especially since, of course, priests who use it in the liturgy are also Brahmins).

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Salajane » 2018-03-25, 19:02

The more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of keeping the forums we have and creating new ones instead of merging them. Even the smallest and the quietest Frisian forum deserves to exist on its own.

By the way, here is the list of all the threads in the Other languages forum (some are sorted by language family).
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2018

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-25, 19:09

Irusia wrote:The more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of keeping the forums we have and creating new ones instead of merging them. Even the smallest and the quietest Frisian forum deserves to exist on its own.

That makes sense to me, too, Irusia.

Irusia wrote:By the way, here is the list of all the threads in the Other languages forum (some are sorted by language family).

Thank you very much for doing that!

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-25, 19:14

Irusia wrote:The more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of keeping the forums we have and creating new ones instead of merging them. Even the smallest and the quietest Frisian forum deserves to exist on its own.

Agreed.

I think let what is already there can stay, and we can figure out either linguistic groupings (ideally) for the rest, or (God forbid) geographic groupings if need be.

Personally, traffic or no traffic, I think it was a mistake to get rid of the Albanian and Armenian subforums.

Irusia wrote:By the way, here is the list of all the threads in the Other languages forum (some are sorted by language family).

Wow, thanks! :D

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-26, 1:59

I actually am leaning a little more towards merging some of the subforums for European languages in the interests of global consistency. Like I said earlier, there are 32 subforums just for Indo-European languages. The vast majority of those languages are European. Now, there are obviously more people interested in certain IE languages than there are in most other languages, but we also wouldn't want to make another 32 subforums for any other language family, would we? Everything would be buried in a system like that.
księżycowy wrote:Personally, traffic or no traffic, I think it was a mistake to get rid of the Albanian and Armenian subforums.

I feel that way even more strongly about the Tagalog and Thai ones. Each subforum was merged into one thread, but then other people just made new threads for both languages anyway.
Irusia wrote:By the way, here is the list of all the threads in the Other languages forum (some are sorted by language family).

Wow, thanks! :D

Thirded.

Well, I said I'd try to add on to what I said earlier and suggested that I'd say more about Asian languages later, and so here it is!

Semitic languages are spoken in all three of Europe, Asia, and Africa. Northeast Caucasian languages, Northwest Caucasian languages, and Kartvelian languages are spoken in a transcontinental area that may considered either part of Europe or part of Asia. Indo-European, Uralic, and Turkic languages are clearly spoken in both Europe and Asia, and Austronesian languages are spoken in Africa (mainly Madagascar) and Oceania as well as Asia. Mongolic languages are mainly spoken in Asia, but Kalmyk is a Mongolic language that is spoken in a part of Russia sometimes considered to be in Europe. The Yeniseian languages are spoken only in Siberia, but they may be related to Na-Dene.

Apart from the 9 language families I just mentioned in the previous paragraph, all (surviving) languages from the following 10 language families are spoken in Asia:
► Show Spoiler

In addition, there are three groups of languages called the Siangic languages, the Digaro languages, and the Kho-Bwa languages. AFAIK they are all traditionally considered Sino-Tibetan languages, but their membership in Sino-Tibetan has been questioned (i.e. they may instead be language families in their own right unrelated to Sino-Tibetan).

Asia also has four living language isolates: Nivkh a.k.a. Gilyak, Kusunda, Nihali, and Burushaski. Some people consider Korean a language isolate; others say it isn't because the language variety spoken on Jeju Island off the coast of mainland (South) Korea is unintelligible with other varieties of Korean, making it part of a Koreanic language family. Similarly, the varieties of Ainu are apparently so diverse that while it's generally considered an isolate AFAIK, some people suggest instead that it's a family in its own right.

So, where can we put Asian languages that aren't already included in an existing subforum other than Other Languages? We could make a Semitic forum for Semitic languages other than Hebrew and Arabic. We could expand Georgian to include Kartvelian languages and Japanese to include Japonic. We could perhaps make a Dene-Yeniseian forum (instead of a Na-Dene one). We could maybe split the South Asian forum up into a Dravidian forum, an Indo-Aryan forum (including Hindi), an Iranian forum, and a Sino-Tibetan forum. Or maybe we could split it into a Dravidian forum, an Indo-Iranian forum, and a Sino-Tibetan forum, but either way, only if Meera's okay with it. :whistle: We could also split Southeast Asia up into Austroasiatic, Tai-Kadai, and Hmong-Mien. That leaves Northwest Caucasian, Northeast Caucasian, Tungusic, Luorawetlan, Yukaghir, and Ongan.

Maybe we can make an Indo-European forum and maybe even merge it with Frisian or something! Then that could also include Indo-Iranian, Armenian, minority Germanic, etc. Or we could change the Hindi forum into an Indo-Iranian one if Meera's okay with that. Or maybe we could even make an "Asian languages" forum (including Hindi...again, if Meera's okay with it :ohwell: ) and a "(minority) European languages" forum (including Frisian)!

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-26, 9:13

I don't have the time to respond to everything you wrote now Vijay-kun, but I will reply to this:

I feel that way even more strongly about the Tagalog and Thai ones. Each subforum was merged into one thread, but then other people just made new threads for both languages anyway.

I honestly forgot both of them were their own subforms at one time.

It's fucking ridiculous to think that all the awesome information those subforms contained is now smushed into a single thread. It makes finding anything for any of these languages very difficult in these "single thread subforums." That I am completely against doing ever again.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-26, 14:30

I personally would be in favor of reviving at least the Thai and Tagalog subforums.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-26, 15:10

If we revive those subforums, it's only fair to revive the other two, right?

Although, I wonder, depending on what you mean by "revive", how easy that would be.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-26, 15:25

It wouldn't be easy (I was thinking in terms of actually undoing the merging of all the threads into one).

To be honest, I'm particularly inclined towards reviving Thai and Tagalog because like I said, people created new threads for both languages anyway even after the merger, and also in the interests of (hopefully) balancing the number of European language-specific forums against the number of Asian ones.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-26, 16:25

I'm all for equality. Which is why if we do one.....

But yes, I think there should be a more even spread between European and non-European subforums.Not just Asian, but across the board.


See what I did there? :P


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