Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-11, 22:27

I was asking if you guys would, instead of merging things, create new forums. Which you pretty much answered.

And we both said that same thing at the end there. We can't have subforums for every language.

Hmmmm, so this might actually change things at this point. I think we might need to go back a step or two and see if we want to merge at all, or if we want to just add. Or even have a mix.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Luís » 2018-03-11, 22:33

księżycowy wrote:I was asking if you guys would, instead of merging things, create new forums. Which you pretty much answered.


Well, group forums are new forums too :P
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-11, 22:35

I suppose they are. :P

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-11, 23:07

I voted "other" in this poll. If the Sami languages are merged with anything, then I also believe they should be merged with other minority Uralic languages. However, I am also personally fine with the Sami languages forum staying as it is.

If creating new forums without merging existing ones is an option on the table, and the traffic to each subforum is not a major concern as linguoboy suggests, then how about creating new forums for the following:

- Sign languages
- Albanian
- Caucasian languages
- Uralic languages [excluding Finnish, Hungarian, and Sami]
- Slavic languages [excluding the ones that already have their own forum]
- (Minority) Romance languages
- (Minority) Germanic languages
- Siberian languages
- Iranian languages [excluding the South Asian ones]

plus changing "Creole Languages" to "Creoles and Pidgins," broadening the scope of the Hebrew forum to Semitic, and including Romani with "South Asian languages" (possibly even without a change in the forum name)?

I honestly would also be in favor of splitting up some of the non-European forums if a) again, traffic isn't a concern, and b) other users besides myself don't feel it's going too far.
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2018-03-11, 23:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-11, 23:12

Yes to all of that. Yes. Yes! YES!

The only changes I would make are:
Split Caucasian into Northern Caucasian, Armenian, and Ossetic can go with Iranian.

I'd also like to suggest:
I'd also like to see either a Neo-Aramaic or general Semitic subforum. Or both. But let's leave Hebrew out of it.
Also a Mongolian one.

What do you have in mind as far as splitting the non-European forums, Vijay? I thought of this as well, but wasn't sure about it.

I suppose we shouldn't get too far ahead of ourselves, but no harm in putting this stuff out there, right? :P

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-11, 23:19

Oh, yeah, I forgot about Mongolian. :doh:

If splitting some of the non-European forums is indeed an option, the first thing I'm going to suggest is splitting CSAIL up into Central American languages and South American ones. It seems that the only language that's indigenous to parts of both Panama and Colombia is Kuna, so this division would seem to make even more sense than the division between North and Central American languages.

Alternatively, we could try splitting these forums up by language family or something (but of course that's a lot more subforums).

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-11, 23:21

vijayjohn wrote:I voted "other" in this poll. If the Sami languages are merged with anything, then I also believe they should be merged with other minority Uralic languages. However, I am also personally fine with the Sami languages forum staying as it is.

If creating new forums without merging existing ones is an option on the table, and the traffic to each subforum is not a major concern as linguoboy suggests, then how about creating new forums for the following:

- Sign languages
- Albanian
- Caucasian languages
- Uralic languages [excluding Finnish, Hungarian, and Sami]
- Slavic languages [excluding the ones that already have their own forum]
- (Minority) Romance languages
- (Minority) Germanic languages
- Siberian languages
- Iranian languages [excluding the South Asian ones]

plus changing "Creole Languages" to "Creoles and Pidgins," broadening the scope of the Hebrew forum to Semitic, and including Romani with "South Asian languages" (possibly even without a change in the forum name)?

I honestly would also be in favor of splitting up some of the non-European forums if a) again, traffic isn't a concern, and b) other users besides myself don't feel it's going too far.

księżycowy wrote:Yes to all of that. Yes. Yes! YES!

The only changes I would make are:
Split Caucasian into Northern Caucasian, Armenian, and Ossetic can go with Iranian.

I'd also like to suggest:
I'd also like to see either a Neo-Aramaic or general Semitic subforum. Or both.
Also a Mongolian one.


Can I assume that Vijay's mention of a forum for "Uralic languages [excluding Finnish, Hungarian, and Sami]" keeps the Estonian forum as it is as well?
If so, I agree. Although I've been advocating for making the Saami forum into an Uralic one, I was under the impression that adding forums was not much of an option overall, or that adding an Uralic forum that wasn't connected to the Saami one would not happen (I mean, people were even talking about combining it with Estonian and Finnish because they weren't "active" enough, so I just assumed....) The Saami forum is very quiet, so I'm fine with it either way. I would like a Uralic forum, with or without a separate Saami forum. And I would like to keep the three larger and more active Uralic forums (Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian) the way they are. (By "more active" I simply mean they are more active than the Saami forum, and more active than any other individual minority Uralic language is likely to be.)

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-11, 23:23

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Estonian also has its own subforum. :lol: Yes, I'm certainly fine with keeping Estonian separate from a new Uralic subforum. :yep:

And I was under the same impression as you regarding merging/splitting subforums.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-11, 23:30

Yeah, I make three. I thought that merging was what the admins were in favor of.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-11, 23:35

Oh, I forgot to say that I'm fine with Georgian staying as a separate forum under these conditions.

vijayjohn wrote:If splitting some of the non-European forums is indeed an option, the first thing I'm going to suggest is splitting CSAIL up into Central American languages and South American ones. It seems that the only language that's indigenous to parts of both Panama and Colombia is Kuna, so this division would seem to make even more sense than the division between North and Central American languages.

Alternatively, we could try splitting these forums up by language family or something (but of course that's a lot more subforums).

I think I like linguistic families best, but as you say, that will make a shit ton of "new" forums. Maybe we could, for better or worse, have two language families in one forum? Or something?

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-03-12, 3:01

Okay, so here's a revised proposal!

So far, we seem to agree on the following:

- Sign languages
- Albanian
- Armenian
- Uralic languages [excluding Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, and Saami]
- Slavic languages [excluding the ones that already have their own forum]
- Romance languages [excluding the ones that have their own forums]
- Germanic languages [excluding the ones that have their own forums]
- Siberian languages
- Iranian languages [including Ossetian but excluding the South Asian ones]
- Creole Languages -> Creoles and Pidgins
- South Asian languages can include Romani (and Domari).

New ideas:

- We can add a forum called Caucasian to include Northeast Caucasian languages, Northwest Caucasian languages, and Kartvelian languages other than Georgian.
- We can add a Mongolic languages forum.
- We can add a Semitic languages forum. Neo-Aramaic and Ethopic could go in there.
- We can add forums for Algic, Iroquoian, Dene-Yeniseian, Siouan, Salishan, Mayan, Uto-Aztecan, and Otomanguean. These are all major families in the Americas.
- We can split the rest into a Mesoamerican languages forum and a South American languages forum. All languages of Mexico and Central America would go into Mesoamerican languages.
- Three-way split between Australian languages, Austronesian languages, and Papuan languages
- Siberian languages won't include Turkic, Yeniseian, Mongolic, or Uralic languages, because these have their own forums. It will only include Tungusic languages, Yukaghir languages, Nivkh, and Ainu.

It's incredibly difficult to split the Papuan languages or the languages of the Americas up by family because they include a very large number of both families and isolates. In fact, it's technically impossible to split them all up by family because there are languages of uncertain classification, too.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-12, 9:49

For North American, you forgot Eskimo-Aleut, and I think Na-Dene would suffice. I don't think we need to make it Dene-Yeniseian. Yeniseian can go with Siberian if anyone's actually interested in those languages. I would also propose a Muskogean forum as well, as people have expressed interest in at various times (including myself).

As far as Caucasian, I'm hesitant to add Southern Caucasian languages to it. Maybe they can go with Georgian?

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Luís » 2018-03-12, 11:09

vijayjohn wrote:- Uralic languages [excluding Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, and Saami]


Looking at the poll results so far (and there are two of them) people seem to want to merge Sami with other minority Uralic languages, though. No votes for "No: keep the Saami forum as it is" in any of the two polls.

I think we should probably start with the easy stuff (e.g. renaming the Creole Languages forum) and then deal with forums in which there are polls currently going on (Sami, Hebrew, Georgian).

We also need to identify all threads that need to be moved (if any).
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Antea » 2018-03-12, 11:16

If I remember well, I think I voted "other", and then explained that I would like a new forum created for Uralic languages (but without merging with Sami). Maybe I should have voted "keep Sami forum as it is" and then propose what I was thinking :hmm: . Well, just to explain more clearly.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-12, 11:16

Part of the problem with the poll results, however, is not knowing where the admins stood. Those of use who created the polls were working off the assumption that no new (as in not merged) forums would be created out of the Trash Bin. We though it was merge or nothing.

So I think we might need to leave the polls for a bit longer. And open up some more possibilities.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Luís » 2018-03-12, 11:22

I don't understand why there are two polls for Sami either. This is a general thread for discussing subforum changes, so I'm not sure if having a poll for a specific subforum here makes much sense.

We can maybe link to all polls in the first page or something.
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby atalarikt » 2018-03-12, 11:39

Luís wrote:I don't understand why there are two polls for Sami either. This is a general thread for discussing subforum changes, so I'm not sure if having a poll for a specific subforum here makes much sense.

We can maybe link to all polls in the first page or something.

It was a previous suggestion from Johanna. Should I add the thread from the Sami subforum instead? Maybe Vijay can redirect his vote and opinion there. (Hopefully you don't mind doing so, Vijay! :oops: )
وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-12, 11:52

I notice, by the way Vijay, that you didn't break up the South Asian or South East Asian forums. :whistle:

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby Aurinĭa » 2018-03-12, 12:05

księżycowy wrote:Part of the problem with the poll results, however, is not knowing where the admins stood.

"The admins" don't stand anywhere. One has said he's not in favour of merging, one has said maybe new forums could get added, if the majority wants that, and one is in favour of merging and against creating new forums. There is no "admin position".

I would like everybody here to think very carefully about how active any proposed new forums would be. One example that has come up a few times is an Albanian forum. Since January 2017, so during the last 14.5 months, 17 posts have been made in three Albanian threads. 5 of those simply consist of youtube videos, which should really be collected into one "Albanian resources" post, rather than posted in multiple posts somewhere in a thread.
Those who are in favour of an Albanian forum, how active do you think it would be? Having a forum for a language doesn't magically translate into more activity, otherwise no forums would ever have got booted, and there are still dead and inactive forums to testify that. People expressing interest in a language doesn't always translate into actual posts in the appropriate subforum either. In fact, it often doesn't, or it only translates into posts in that person's TAC thread.

Furthermore, the more inactive and dead subforums there are, the more inactive the forum as a whole will appear, even if the overall level of activity doesn't go down. Such a forum seems less likely to tempt potential new users into registering and becoming active.

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Re: Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-12, 12:35

I think it is wise to concider activity.

But it could also be said that people don't come because they don't see the language (or language family) they speak/study specifically listed.

Not to mention activity is very difficult to predict, as Linguoboy pointed out.

Basically, I think it's a fine line, and something we have to figure out.


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