Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 14:57

Yes, I think that we got to where we want to be with this. :)

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-08, 17:39

So what's the consensus? I got lost a bit in the discussion. (Also, not sure if this reopens the discussion, but I didn't realize that Oceania includes Australia and Papua New Guinea. That's my sole reason for suggesting that longer name: I thought Oceania only included Polynesia, Micronesia and Melanesia).
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 17:42

It does, but as we both demonstrated, it's not the most known or understood name. I thought the same thing as you at first. :P

I think, unless there are any major complaints, we're going with "Pacific Languages" or perhaps "Pacific Indigenous Languages".

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby Yserenhart » 2018-02-08, 18:19

I would argue that "Pacific Languages" includes far too many things that overlap with other existing sub-forums. I would instead propose renaming "South East Asian Languages" to include East Asian languages, and limiting the expansion to Oceanian languages; whether named so, or as "Australian, Papuan and Oceanic indigenous Languages".
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-08, 18:30

Yserenhart wrote:I would instead propose renaming "South East Asian Languages" to include East Asian languages

So that the Formosan languages could be included? Then this should include Ainu as well, right? And the only SEA/EA languages that would be excluded would be the ones currently with their own forum - Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and Indonesian/Malaysian?
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby Yserenhart » 2018-02-08, 18:35

dEhiN wrote:
Yserenhart wrote:I would instead propose renaming "South East Asian Languages" to include East Asian languages

So that the Formosan languages could be included? Then this should include Ainu as well, right? And the only SEA/EA languages that would be excluded would be the ones currently with their own forum - Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and Indonesian/Malaysian?

Yes, yes, and yes.
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 18:38

So, how is having a broader SEA subforum any different than a Pacific Language forum?

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-08, 18:46

księżycowy wrote:So, how is having a broader SEA subforum any different than a Pacific Language forum?

Well for one, Pacific language wouldn't technically include Malagasy.
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 18:51

But the complaint was that a Pacific subforum would overlap too much. And broadening the SEA subforum to a kind of EA forum presents the same issue.

Plus, Malagasy is neither East Asian, nor Oceanian. If anything it should be in the African Indigenous Languages subforum. It's a geographic grouping after all.

EDIT: Actually, I just checked, and it is in the African subforum already.

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby Yserenhart » 2018-02-08, 19:35

Consider that "Pacific" as an adjective means "relating to the Pacific Ocean". "Pacific Languages" as a geographic grouping therefore means "languages spoken in and around the Pacific Ocean". Sure, it gives a place for Formosan languages and Ainu, but also would include (amongst others) Udege, Koryak, Aleut, Tlingit, Salishan, Tagalog, and Balinese; most of which can also go in other sub-forums, thus it's not an intuitive grouping.

Should the general desire be to include Formosan (which I'm not necessarily against, it makes sense based on language family), I suggest an alternate grouping of "Australian, Austronesian, and Papuan Languages", and expanding the SEA to include other languages of East Asia to substitute for the Austronesian languages that would be moved out.
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 19:42

You do have a point there, but it's not like things that already have forums would be moved, right?

Whatever the case, I don't mean to make it sound like I'm against your proposal, especially now that I see what you're trying to do. What say the others who have been a part of this discussion?

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby aaakknu » 2018-02-08, 19:57

Yserenhart wrote:I suggest an alternate grouping of "Australian, Austronesian, and Papuan Languages", and expanding the SEA to include other languages of East Asia to substitute for the Austronesian languages that would be moved out.

I think it's the best variant.

I can make a list of threads which need to be moved from the SEA subforum to the "Australian, Austronesian, and Papuan Languages" subforum.

EDIT:
Here is the list:
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=30370

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=46801

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=35339

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=48830&p=1061594#p1061594

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=43566

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=43316

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=47023

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=46403

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=44770

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=43569

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=45009

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=44357

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=42888

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=27969

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=24300
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby aaakknu » 2018-02-08, 21:07

What about changing the name of the subforum "Saami languages" to "Uralic languages"? It is one of the least active subforums (the last post was in January 2017), and there are very few threads.
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-09, 3:04

Well are there posts in/for other Uralic languages besides Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and the Saami languages? If not, then is there a need or point?

Also, maybe we should just change the name of this thread to something more generic like "Language forum renaming 2018"? That way we can consider the current language-specific forum breakdown for all the forums?
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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-09, 3:49

Yserenhart wrote:Consider that "Pacific" as an adjective means "relating to the Pacific Ocean". "Pacific Languages" as a geographic grouping therefore means "languages spoken in and around the Pacific Ocean".

Why "around"? To me it means languages spoken in the Pacific Ocean.
Sure, it gives a place for Formosan languages and Ainu, but also would include (amongst others) Udege, Koryak, Aleut, Tlingit, Salishan, Tagalog, and Balinese; most of which can also go in other sub-forums, thus it's not an intuitive grouping.

Grouping Ainu with Austronesian and Papuan languages isn't intuitive, either.
dEhiN wrote:Well are there posts in/for other Uralic languages besides Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and the Saami languages?

Yes. I'm not sure why that would mean the Sami Languages forum should be renamed, though.
Also, maybe we should just change the name of this thread to something more generic like "Language forum renaming 2018"? That way we can consider the current language-specific forum breakdown for all the forums?

I think before we get excited about renaming everything, it would be better for us to agree on how to rename one first.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-09, 3:55

vijayjohn wrote:
Sure, it gives a place for Formosan languages and Ainu, but also would include (amongst others) Udege, Koryak, Aleut, Tlingit, Salishan, Tagalog, and Balinese; most of which can also go in other sub-forums, thus it's not an intuitive grouping.

Grouping Ainu with Austronesian and Papuan languages isn't intuitive, either.

It may not be intuitive, but if we go with Pacific Languages and even if the definition is just languages spoken in the Pacific Ocean, then that would still group Ainu with Austronesian and Papuan languages. So whether Pacific means just in or in and around, either way it seems to group languages that aren't intuitively grouped together.

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Well are there posts in/for other Uralic languages besides Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and the Saami languages?

Yes. I'm not sure why that would mean the Sami Languages forum should be renamed, though.

I'm not necessarily saying it should be renamed. I just figured before we considered it, we should see if there is activity in the other Uralic languages. That would help determine if there's a need for an all-encompassing Uralic Languages forum.

vijayjohn wrote:
Also, maybe we should just change the name of this thread to something more generic like "Language forum renaming 2018"? That way we can consider the current language-specific forum breakdown for all the forums?

I think before we get excited about renaming everything, it would be better for us to agree on how to rename one first.

Good point! :D But I think it's too late; the OP already changed the thread title.
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Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby atalarikt » 2018-02-09, 3:55

Whoa! Didn't expect many other things to be discussed in this thread (not saying this disparagingly)...

dEhiN wrote:Also, maybe we should just change the name of this thread to something more generic like "Language forum renaming 2018"? That way we can consider the current language-specific forum breakdown for all the forums?

...so I decided to change the thread title according to dEhiN's suggestion.

dEhiN wrote:Well are there posts in/for other Uralic languages besides Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and the Saami languages? If not, then is there a need or point?

Here are several threads on other Uralic languages I have found so far.
Uralic Languages Word-Association Game
UL Uralic Café
Erzya & Moksha
Mari
Permic (Komi, Udmurt)
Finnic (other languages belonging to the branch that are not Finnish, Estonian, or Võro)
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-09, 4:06

The first two are almost entirely in Finnish, Hungarian, and English. Just saying :P
dEhiN wrote:It may not be intuitive, but if we go with Pacific Languages and even if the definition is just languages spoken in the Pacific Ocean, then that would still group Ainu with Austronesian and Papuan languages. So whether Pacific means just in or in and around, either way it seems to group languages that aren't intuitively grouped together.

True. Maybe I was wrong to suggest "Oceanian" over "Oceanic" after all; I guess we could come full circle and call it "Oceanic languages" as originally proposed, but with a broad definition of "Oceanic" as used in Oceanic Linguistics.
I'm not necessarily saying it should be renamed. I just figured before we considered it, we should see if there is activity in the other Uralic languages. That would help determine if there's a need for an all-encompassing Uralic Languages forum.

Oh, I know. I don't think there is despite the number of threads.

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-09, 6:20

vijayjohn wrote:
Yserenhart wrote:Consider that "Pacific" as an adjective means "relating to the Pacific Ocean". "Pacific Languages" as a geographic grouping therefore means "languages spoken in and around the Pacific Ocean".

Why "around"? To me it means languages spoken in the Pacific Ocean.

This was why I originally raised my question. To me Pacific meant the same as Vijay, in, not around. Most of the other geographic groupings have meant "languages spoken in ____" not "in and around ___" (with few exception)1.

I still think "Pacific languages" would work, but I'm not really opposed to the other prominent suggestion. :P
I will say that "Pacific languages" is sleeker and simpler than anything else suggested so far though.

1 In fact the only exception I can think of off the top of my head, which isn't much of an exception, is Siberian Yupik in the NAIL forum. Which is spoken in Alaska in addition to Siberia.

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Re: Request to rename Polynesian Languages subforum

Postby Yserenhart » 2018-02-09, 12:03

vijayjohn wrote:
Yserenhart wrote:Consider that "Pacific" as an adjective means "relating to the Pacific Ocean". "Pacific Languages" as a geographic grouping therefore means "languages spoken in and around the Pacific Ocean".

Why "around"? To me it means languages spoken in the Pacific Ocean.

Because the regions bordering the Pacific Ocean still relate to the Pacific Ocean. I don't see how you can use "Pacific" to include Australia, but also exclude the Pacific coasts of North and South America; considering Australia is only slightly smaller than the contiguous US and at least half of the Australian coast is not in the Pacific Ocean.

Also, if native English speakers can't agree on what constitutes "Pacific languages", it won't be any easier for non-native English speakers. The Salishan languages I used as an example before are spoken in a region called the Pacific Northwest; if "Pacific" is in then name of the region, is it not confusing to say that languages spoken there aren't Pacific languages?

Grouping Ainu with Austronesian and Papuan languages isn't intuitive, either.

That was my point. It would be more intuitive, in my opinion, to group East and South-East Asian languages, and Australian, Austronesian, and Papuan languages, and then say that family grouping takes priority over geographic grouping.
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