Language Subforums Management Discussion 2018

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-27, 10:38

I'm not sure I like the "Indo-European" idea, because depending on how we define Europe, we can include: Basque, Frisian, Albanian, Armenian, Caucasian languages, Georgian, Sammi and the other Uralic languages (a lot of them are spoken in what I would concider European Russia, or at least a close enough tolerance).

I vote for "Other European".

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby h34 » 2018-02-27, 11:06

księżycowy wrote:I'm not sure I like the "Indo-European" idea, because depending on how we define Europe, we can include: Basque, Frisian, Albanian, Armenian, Caucasian languages, Georgian, Sammi and the other Uralic languages (a lot of them are spoken in what I would concider European Russia, or at least a close enough tolerance).

I vote for "Other European".

On the other hand, that would perhaps exclude Uralic languages like the Ugric languages spoken hundreds of kilometres east of the Urals.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-27, 11:13

Eh, an exception can be made.

EDIT: After going to the Other languages section again for something else, I realized a skipped a bunch check that could be included. But you get the idea. :P

And before anyone says it again, if we claim that it would be too much to mod, does that mean the NAIL forum is too much to mod?

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-27, 14:13

atalarikt wrote:this may have a chance of making the subforum much more active than it is currently (or should I say, arise from its grave? :P ) and I've seen some Unilangers actively speak or use minority Uralic languages like Livonian, Mari, Udmurt, and so on.

Irusia wrote:Not all the Uralic languages are spoken in Europe.
I suggest two subforums: Uralic languages forum and Minority Indo-European languages forum (we can include also those outside Europe).

Naava wrote:I like this idea. It makes sense to keep languages that belong to the same language family in the same place.

I agree with this, too. I especially like the idea of two subforums (Minority Indo-European and Uralic).
Having a forum only for minority European languages, even if it isn't specifically Indo-European, doesn't provide a place for the non-European Uralic languages. I think Khanty and Mansi were already mentioned, not to mention the Samoyedic languages like Selkup, Nenets and so on.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-27, 14:28

I don't think I have anything against the creation of a Uralic subforum or even a Caucasian subforum, but I do have something against a Minority European subforum because that's basically what the Other Languages subforum is already used for. Few people post anything on any of the threads for the other languages ( :P ) in the Other Languages subforum.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-27, 14:29

I had the same thought after posting my last message.

We could have an "other European" forum and a Uralic forum.

And I get your point, Vijay. And 'tis true, there isn't a lot of posting in the Other Languages section. Hell we're not having a lot of posting beyond the three or four of us in the forum we just created.

But at least making these types of forums gives them greater chance, over all, to to having some type of activity. Certainly better than having a completely (or near) dead forum.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2018-02-27, 14:40, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-27, 14:33

But the Other Languages forum is already an "other European (+others :P)" forum, and if we cut out the European languages from it (which is probably about half of that forum), it would be dead.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-27, 14:39

Maybe we don't need the "Other Languages" section. :whistle:

Let's make a "Other Asian" subforum and really kill it! :twisted:

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-28, 0:29

I don't have anything against the South Asian forum becoming an Other Asian forum. :whistle:

It would be pretty funny, though. :lol:

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-28, 5:24

Let's see what we have so far:

- African
- Australian, Austronesian and Papuan
- Celtic
- Central and South American
- Creole
- North American
- Continental Southeast Aian
- South Asian
- Turkic

And here's my suggestion:

We can dissolve "Other Languages", which has been the beloved orphanage of languages that don't belong anywhere, by renaming:

- Turkic to Central Asian
- Sami to Aboriginal European (I'm not serious in suggesting this as the forum name, though to me they're just as aboriginal as Yi or Cree. Eh, whatevs. Eurocentrism FTW.)

and adding:

- Northeast Asian and Siberian
- Southwest Asian and Caucasian

and finally, remove:

- Other languages

This way, we can divide up the rest of the world... that is, Eurasia. Going completely by geography solves the problems like Samoyedic.

- most Mongolic Languages will go to North Asian, except the likes of Kalmyk which can go to Southwest Asian and Caucasian
- Minority languages in China will go to either Northeast Asian (e.g. Manchu, Dagur, etc), Southeast Asian (Zhuang, Yi, etc), or Central Asian (Uyghur, Sibe).
- Kick Yakut to North Asian and Azeri to Southwest Asian etc, and invite whatever that is vaguely interior to Asia, such as Tibetan to Central Asian. (Or, if we want to respect its Indic connection, South Asian can be "South Asian and Tibetan")
- The remaining languages of Southwestern Asia / the Middle East will find their places in Southwest Asian

Instead of going with "Uralic" and "European", this can at least solve the problems for the foreseeable future, though it will add one more forum. The only thing that we need to change will be if a language attracts enough people to create its own forum.

This is going to be a big cleanup and I can kind of see some of this might not please everyone. Feel free to make further suggestions, but I kind of hated seeing the "Other Languages" dump for a long time.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2018-02-28, 6:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby atalarikt » 2018-02-28, 6:00

Also, I think the Creole Languages subforum could be renamed into Creole and Pidgin Languages, given that those two types are actually different, yet closely related to each other (creoles are pidgins that become native/official languages, while pidgins are languages that rise from a mixture of two or more languages/cultures, yet, unlike creoles, are not passed as native/official languages).
وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (Ar-Rum: 22)

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby h34 » 2018-02-28, 7:06

I think one advantage of keeping language families like Uralic together in a common subforum is that it would make it easier to create threads about common features and differences within the language family, just like some threads on the Turkic languages subforum.

If the idea of a Uralic languages subforum (or other similar forums) doesn't find a majority, I wonder if it was possible to create additional threads not devoted to individual languages but to language families. These threads could cover common features and serve as a 'first port of call' for anyone interested in a particular language family, and there could be links to the threads for each individual language.
Last edited by h34 on 2018-02-28, 7:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-28, 7:19

Karavinka wrote:We can dissolve "Other Languages", which has been the beloved orphanage of languages that don't belong anywhere, by renaming:

- Turkic to Central Asian
- Sami to Aboriginal European (I'm not serious in suggesting this as the forum name, though to me they're just as aboriginal as Yi or Cree. Eh, whatevs. Eurocentrism FTW.)

and adding:

- Northeast Asian and Siberian
- Southwest Asian and Caucasian

and finally, remove:

- Other languages

This way, we can divide up the rest of the world... that is, Eurasia. Going completely by geography solves the problems like Samoyedic.

- most Mongolic Languages will go to North Asian, except the likes of Kalmyk which can go to Southwest Asian and Caucasian
- Minority languages in China will go to either Northeast Asian (e.g. Manchu, Dagur, etc), Southeast Asian (Zhuang, Yi, etc), or Central Asian (Uyghur, Sibe).
- Kick Yakut to North Asian, and invite whatever that is vaguely interior to Asia, such as Tibetan to Central Asian. (Or, if we want to respect its Indic connection, South Asian can be "South Asian and Tibetan")
- The remaining languages of Southwestern Asia / the Middle East will find their places in Southwest Asian

Instead of going with "Uralic" and "European", this can at least solve the problems for the foreseeable future, though it will add one more forum. The only thing that we need to change will be if a language attracts enough people to create its own forum.

FWIW, on a language forum I think it makes much more sense to have sections for languages that are related to each other rather than languages are that associated by geography only. I was really looking forward to having an Uralic forum (honestly, I first heard the suggestion this morning, but this evening I already thinking of things I'd like to post there if it's created, LOL).
One of my thoughts about it was that just by virtue of having an Uralic forum, we'd probably get more people here who were interested in discussing those languages. There aren't many resources online and if people search the web for resources for Uralic or for the specific languages, Veps or Ingrian or Mari or Udmurt or Komi or Enets, a Uralic forum would probably come up near the top of the list, because there are so few resources out there to begin with, and (if you combine those languages) quite a few people here who are interested in them.
But if you group languages by continent instead, first of all a "European" or "Southeast Asian" or "North Asian" or whatever forum is less likely to be noticed by people searching online for resources/discussion on any particular language groups, because they are extremely broad groupings (and yes, I do feel exactly the same way about some of existing forums, like "African langauges" "Central and South American Indigenous Languages" and so on). Secondly, it divides up related languages into different forums, which just seems awkward. Thirdly, there is sometimes also more of a ethnocentric element to geographic groupings, which was kind of alluded to with the "aboriginal European" comment above, which is exactly why I prefer linguistic groups (more concrete, less open to debate as to what does or doesn't belong in any given group). From a linguistic perspective languages don't neatly follow national borders or geographical ones.
So, to clarify a bit what I said this morning: I do like the idea of two subforums (Indo-European and Uralic) but see the idea of an "Indo-European" forum (based on linguistic relationships) as quite different from a "European" forum (based on geography). In some of the posts above it seems like the two are being viewed as the same thing, but to me it's quite different. Purely geographic groupings seem less academic as well, I guess because they are less specialized from a linguistic perspective. Splitting related languages (such as Uralic languages) into different forums seems like a missed opportunity for people who know or who are learning related languages to collaborate.
I also think that is in part the exact reason the "other languages" forum is the way it is - there's not much of a commonality to give it direction. Yes, I could have posted more than I have about Uralic languages there, but I haven't, because I doubt others with similar interest would even find it. And that's my concern with a general "European" forum as well; it's just too broad.

Edit: h34 posted above while I was writing my post. I agree completely:
h34 wrote:I think one advantage of keeping language families like Uralic together in a common subforum is that it would make it easier to create threads about common features and differences within the language family, just like some threads on the Turkic languages subforum.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Naava » 2018-02-28, 7:52

Linguaphile wrote:Edit: h34 posted above while I was writing my post. I agree completely:
h34 wrote:I think one advantage of keeping language families like Uralic together in a common subforum is that it would make it easier to create threads about common features and differences within the language family, just like some threads on the Turkic languages subforum.

And so do I.

+ I'm interested in Uralic languages even though I don't study any of them yet so this would make it so much easier for me to find threads I want to read.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-28, 10:18

I'm surprised noöne has suggested we reorganized our subforums into linguistic groupings yet. That's kind of what has been hinted at, but mostly about the creation of new subforums.

Maybe we can make our layout something like a big language tree or whatever. :P

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Aurinĭa » 2018-02-28, 10:27

+1 for a Uralic forum and adding "Pidgins" to the Creole languages forum.

I also have a different suggestion: expand the Dutch forum to encompass Afrikaans and Frisian and rename into Smaller West-Germanic languages or something like that. The three forums' activity levels range from dead to barely active. Smaller West-Germanic languages can also find a home here.
In parallell wil this, we could make a North-Germanic forum, encompassing Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Faroese, and Icelandic. These range from low activity level to dead.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-28, 14:56

księżycowy wrote:I'm surprised noöne has suggested we reorganized our subforums into linguistic groupings yet. That's kind of what has been hinted at, but mostly about the creation of new subforums.

I do like that idea, too.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-28, 15:48

Since I'm interested in more than just my ideas of this, how would you propose we do that, Linguaphile?
As in, what would it look like?

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-28, 16:26

księżycowy wrote:Since I'm interested in more than just my ideas of this, how would you propose we do that, Linguaphile?
As in, what would it look like?

Well... my lack of a good answer to that question is why I didn't suggest it myself to begin with. On the one hand I like the idea of related languages being grouped together. On the other hand I know that most of the existing boards have existed the way they are for quite a while and there probably isn't any need to change those that seem to work well as they are. So I think my own focus right now is to have subforums that fill any gaps where there are language groups with interested people but no forum yet - such as the Uralic forum idea. If changing some of the other boards to include related languages would do that, I totally support it. But besides Uralic I don't know what else is "missing" or wanted by others.

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Re: Language Subforums Renaming Discussion 2018

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-28, 16:47

Understandable. Let's see if the idea takes off, or anyone else has any ideas.


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