Discrimination

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linguoboy
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Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-08, 22:25

Aurinĭa wrote:Given the number of threads about various kinds of discrimination, I thought it might be a good idea to open a general thread about the topic, in which any kind of discrimination can be discussed.

I think this is a fine idea. I don't understand, however, why we shouldn't continue discussing specific forms of discrimination in particular threads dedicated to them. Although there are commonalities between them, each form of discrimination in different in its details, from its practitioners to its effects.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-06-09, 3:20

I don't see how this is a good idea. You closed thread I made several months ago asking a very specific question and then it got very few answers in a general thread about discrimination this is just going to be drowned out by discussion about everything else. Plus it actually has more potential to devolve in flame war, because this will be discussion of people's actions, while particular issues won't be addressed.

EDIT: Consider thread I made - I didn't actually ask about discrimination. Yes, it is possible that discrimination is occurring in that case, but there is an option that it isn't and in some country they have found a better way to deal with the issue or maybe what appears to be discrimination is actually beneficial to people concerned. Here it is a preconceived notion that discrimination must be occurring

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-06-09, 8:47

linguoboy wrote:I don't understand, however, why we shouldn't continue discussing specific forms of discrimination in particular threads dedicated to them. Although there are commonalities between them, each form of discrimination in different in its details, from its practitioners to its effects.

The threads that had enough replies have been left open. When I first thought of this thread, the homophobia thread was a candidate for replacement as well, however, in the meantime it had got enough posts to warrant being kept open. The threads I closed didn't have many posts, with hardly any discussion. They were closed to prevent a hopeless cluttering of the forum with threads that get occasionally few, if any, posts. By providing one thread for these issues to be discussed in, I'm hoping it will remain more visible and the discussion can be kept alive.

Sol Invictus wrote:EDIT: Consider thread I made - I didn't actually ask about discrimination. Yes, it is possible that discrimination is occurring in that case, but there is an option that it isn't and in some country they have found a better way to deal with the issue or maybe what appears to be discrimination is actually beneficial to people concerned. Here it is a preconceived notion that discrimination must be occurring

Absence of discrimination where in many other times and places discrimination would occur, is also noteworthy. If there is a country where disabled people are treated with respect and given the support they need, people would be very welcome to discuss that here.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-09, 12:53

Aurinĭa wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I don't understand, however, why we shouldn't continue discussing specific forms of discrimination in particular threads dedicated to them. Although there are commonalities between them, each form of discrimination in different in its details, from its practitioners to its effects.

The threads that had enough replies have been left open. When I first thought of this thread, the homophobia thread was a candidate for replacement as well, however, in the meantime it had got enough posts to warrant being kept open.
How many is "enough" and how did you go about determining this?

Aurinĭa wrote:The threads I closed didn't have many posts, with hardly any discussion. They were closed to prevent a hopeless cluttering of the forum with threads that get occasionally few, if any, posts.

A "hopeless cluttering"? What's "hopeless" about having a few threads with very specific names (which can be easily found using the Search function)? There are eleven pages of threads in this particular subforum; a half dozen more or less isn't going to make any significant impact on what you call "clutter".
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-06-09, 18:34

"Enough" in this case means more than one page. Neither of the two closed topics had more than one page. And yes, there are several pages of threads in this subforum, but once a thread hasn't been posted in for some time, perhaps even disappeared from page one, how often does it get revived? Very seldom. By bringing different threads together in one thread, the chance of it staying in view increases a lot - especially as it's possible to sticky one thread, but not a whole bunch of threads.

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Discrimination

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-06-09, 18:50

How are you going to decide when to close future threads? Also I still don't see why this thread needs to have such a polarizing title, might have been "rarely discussed issues" or something

EDIT: I actually don't see the point of closing threads in this way - they could have at least been merged, now any discussion that was there has been stopped and no one can restart it

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-09, 20:06

Aurinĭa wrote:"Enough" in this case means more than one page. Neither of the two closed topics had more than one page.

Seems extremely arbitrary. As soon as you posted to the Casteism thread to declare it closed, for instance, it went to a second page.

Casteism is not something people generally think of when the topic of discrimination comes up. Seeing this as the title of a separate thread is likely to be more intriguing to potential posters than a generic title like "discrimination".

Aurinĭa wrote:And yes, there are several pages of threads in this subforum, but once a thread hasn't been posted in for some time, perhaps even disappeared from page one, how often does it get revived? Very seldom.

So? If having a lot of dead threads in a subforum is problem, why not prune them? But I don't see why it should be. Storage is cheap and searching is easy.

Aurinĭa wrote:By bringing different threads together in one thread, the chance of it staying in view increases a lot - especially as it's possible to sticky one thread, but not a whole bunch of threads.

Again, why is it so important that it stay in view? For one thing, topics aren't dropping off the first page of that particular subforum that quickly. There are still a couple there from September of last year. Neither of the closed threads was more than halfway down that page.

For another--sorry to sound like a broken record--but searching. Maybe younger posters aren't in the habit of doing a quick search to see if a thread exists on a topic before creating one, but most people I know still do.

All in all, this strikes me as an unnecessary solution to a nonexistent problem. What's the ultimate goal here?
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-06-09, 22:07

Sol Invictus wrote:now any discussion that was there has been stopped and no one can restart it

Well, we can technically...but it's a lot harder than it would be otherwise. :lol:

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Johanna » 2015-06-09, 23:27

vijayjohn wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:now any discussion that was there has been stopped and no one can restart it

Well, we can technically...but it's a lot harder than it would be otherwise. :lol:

It's not that hard, since you can always link to a post in that thread and continue from there ;) Or even quote it, but I admit that that's a bit harder if you don't know BBCode pretty well. Still, it's not like any of those discussions are forbidden, the topics simply got merged in a way that also preserves the original threads.

We've merged threads that dealt with the same range of topics before, without all this outrage, and I honestly can't understand what makes this so much different :?
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-09, 23:55

Johanna wrote:We've merged threads that dealt with the same range of topics before, without all this outrage, and I honestly can't understand what makes this so much different :?

This is what "outrage" looks like to you? Man, I'd love to be a Scandinavian!

As I recall, there was also quite a bit of pushback when several of the language fora were merged. I didn't understand the rationale then and I still don't understand it now.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Johanna » 2015-06-10, 0:22

The rationale in this case is that we've got a catch-all thread for the kinds of discrimination that either only got a short one or that no one thought worthy of a thread, but still wanted to write a post about. Not everyone is you or like you, you know; I've spoken to several members who wouldn't dare create a new thread, but happily post in existing ones, and Unilang is for them as much as for you.

About those forums, we have already answered that, and that answer was similar to this one.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-10, 0:48

Johanna wrote:The rationale in this case is that we've got a catch-all thread for the kinds of discrimination that either only got a short one or that no one thought worthy of a thread, but still wanted to write a post about. Not everyone is you or like you, you know; I've spoken to several members who wouldn't dare create a new thread, but happily post in existing ones, and Unilang is for them as much as for you.

Did I somehow imply it wasn't? Aurinĭa never mentioned that the new thread was created at the request of other members. As far as I could tell from their posts, the impetus was moderatorial whim. I suspected the underlying motive was to prompt more posting from members, and I'm all for that. I'm just sceptical whether this is the most effective means of going about that.

Johanna wrote:About those forums, we have already answered that, and that answer was similar to this one.

Believe me, I know that, I wasn't trying to reopen that discussion. I was just trying to remind you that the past history here is more messy than you seem to recall it being.

But since the topic is now on the table, here's my question: Did merging those other fora produce the results you all were hoping it would?
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Johanna » 2015-06-10, 0:58

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:The rationale in this case is that we've got a catch-all thread for the kinds of discrimination that either only got a short one or that no one thought worthy of a thread, but still wanted to write a post about. Not everyone is you or like you, you know; I've spoken to several members who wouldn't dare create a new thread, but happily post in existing ones, and Unilang is for them as much as for you.

Did I somehow imply it wasn't? Aurinĭa never mentioned that the new thread was created at the request of other members. As far as I could tell from their posts, the impetus was moderatorial whim. I suspected the underlying motive was to prompt more posting from members, and I'm all for that. I'm just sceptical whether this is the most effective means of going about that.

There hasn't been any explicit request, but there have been enough comments along the lines of "this would be nice" on the topic for us to understand that this is what a lot of people want. From my understanding, Aurinĭa wanted to stay as neutral as possible, which I support.

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:About those forums, we have already answered that, and that answer was similar to this one.

Believe me, I know that, I wasn't trying to reopen that discussion. I was just trying to remind you that the past history here is more messy than you seem to recall it being.

But since the topic is now on the table, here's my question: Did merging those other fora produce the results you all were hoping it would?

I know it's a bit messy ;)

And yes, for the most part it worked. Sure, some languages are still forgotten, but they aren't as invisible on page 1 or 2 of a subforum for their family or area as they were on page 12 of Other languages.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-06-10, 2:10

Johanna wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:now any discussion that was there has been stopped and no one can restart it

Well, we can technically...but it's a lot harder than it would be otherwise. :lol:

It's not that hard, since you can always link to a post in that thread and continue from there ;)

Ahh, that's true, didn't think of that. Thanks! :)

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-06-10, 6:31

Johanna wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:now any discussion that was there has been stopped and no one can restart it

Well, we can technically...but it's a lot harder than it would be otherwise. :lol:

It's not that hard, since you can always link to a post in that thread and continue from there ;) Or even quote it, but I admit that that's a bit harder if you don't know BBCode pretty well.

Don't be like that, I'm sure you realize that it is not about technical difficulty, if not - it is about disrupting flow of the conversation and removing easy reference to previous posts
Still, it's not like any of those discussions are forbidden, the topics simply got merged in a way that also preserves the original threads.

What about new threads?

We've merged threads that dealt with the same range of topics before, without all this outrage, and I honestly can't understand what makes this so much different :?

You didn't merge, you closed and insist that discussion needs to continue under a title that doesn't really apply well

I've spoken to several members who wouldn't dare create a new thread, but happily post in existing ones, and Unilang is for them as much as for you.

Well, I dared and look what happened - what am I to expect, if I decide to open another thread that is on topic vaguely related to discrimination?


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